That disclaimer is shown for exactly 1.5 seconds, or 38 frames, mostly as white text against a white background. Yes, I downloaded and checked as I'm that sad type of person :-) No one can notice the text is there and read it that fast, so for all practical purposes it might as well not be there.
It always disappoints me regulators just let this kind of faux-disclaimer slide. This is just lying with your fingers crossed behind your back.
Apple also advertises their watches as water resistant and shows ads with people swimming. But as soon as you get some water ingress, you are SOL since it is not guaranteed.
Since the Series 2 they have a water-resistance rating of 50 metres under ISO standard 22810:2010. So despite how it affects the warranty it is definitely designed to withstand swimming.
And it does work, I would have over 150 recorded swimming workouts (45 minutes to an hour each) on my Apple Watch SE.
If it has two wheels ("bicycle") and a motor ("motorized bicycle") then it is a "motorcycle".
Declining to call it a motorcycle because the motor is small relative to other motorcycles is little more than snobbery, and it's a snobbery that discourages people from buying a (larger) motorcycle that fits their needs, because of a historic arbitrary distinction between small and large motorcycles that require separate licensing for large motorcycles; a distinction that should be eliminated either by applying licensing requirements uniformly to all motorcycles or uniformly eliminating the licensing requirements from all motorcycles.
Eh, it qualifies as a motorcycle IMO. Whether the engine's vibrations transit enough through the frame to damage the camera though is a matter of some debate. It's not just power; how well the engine's tuned, if it's been damaged, etc can affect that pretty drastically.
Indeed. But, anecdotally, the absolute worst ride quality I've had on a powered two-wheeler was with that kind of scooter. All the legitimately "high-powered motorcycles" (>1000 CC and > 100 HP) I've ridden have been very smooth. Not Citroën Hydractive smooth, but still, night and day compared to the vibrating mess of small city scooters.
That makes no sense, yup.
Well, maybe Scooters, yes - they usually have their engine mounted in the swingarm instead of the central frame, which reduces vibrations at the handlebar.
As for power, that doesnt correlate, eg. I have a 20yrs old KTM single without a dampening balance shaft. It only has 48PS but boy, does it vibrate. 45min ride = tingling feet and hands. So, number of cylinders, crankshaft configuration and number of balance shafts make the difference.
Also: Vibration spectrum and power distribution probably also make a Zuge difference (for the iphone's lens/autofocus mechanism)
> Neither “high-power” nor “motorcycle” are words I would use to characterize the vehicle in that advertisement.
Words I would use are 'manipulating gig workers nto thinking they can/should/must own a phone that far exceeds the value of their scooter.'
I have a Mac (computer) that I used for work stuff but I will never get the cult-like fantacism that drives the mobile phone sales side, even this ad screams of RATM No Shelter:
The poor adore keep fiendin' for more
The thin line between entertainment and war
Fix the need, develop the taste
Buy their products or get laid to waste
I had an older iiphone (sub 9) and the reason I got it was because the app I used it for pretty much abandoned Android support entirely, nothing on the Android version worked and was not being updated despite a significant outcry for support. It then died when I took it to EU (where they have almost no penetration) and used a phone charger and lost like $60 worth of Bitcoin on that phone.
I'm glad I'm a millennial that never got sucked into these stupid things, unlike most of my generation: I almost always have a laptop on me that can do everything a mobile phone can do with a much better UX and security/privacy,
With that said, I drove with my older S. Korean made LG Android on my motorcycles all the time and never had an issue, so... blame Foxconn made QA?
I'm betting that iPhone cost more than that motorcycle
(though to be fair to the other commenters, the vibration there is probably greatly reduced due to the fact of being more a scooter than a motorbike - being kept loosely on a holder instead of clamped also helps)
This happened to me with my iPhone using a QuadLock mount. The camera started just shaking uncontrollably. Luckily I got a new iPhone back from Apple since I told them I had no idea how it happened. Now I'm using a Vibration Dampener https://www.quadlockcase.eu/collections/accessories/products... that seems to work, but I had received no warning from QuadLock that their mount could potentially damage my phone beforehand. Now I see that they have a small warning when purchasing which is a lot better.
Nothing to say about the product, but man I needed to comment on the video that the product page shows. I think they did a fantastic job with it.
There was something utterly satisfying to me, about the detail of adding a "click" sound every time the image shows someone snapping a phone into its mount. I just assumed it as a natural and expected sound since the second instance when it happens.
I know colloquial usage has changed but I can't get over "vibration dampener" vs "vibration damper".
In olden times, the former would make your phone wet via vibration (how left as an exercise to the reader) while the latter would attenuate or suppress or reduce vibration.
Total aside, I and others have had bad experiences with QuadLock. Ended up moving to the Peak Design mobile case and moto or universal mount and it’s been shockingly amazing.
I got the one I sent but at a different site. It has its own interface on top of supporting CarPlay and Android Auto. It takes a few seconds to start, a few to “load”, and a few to connect to Bluetooth before CarPlay kicks in.
The CarPlay interface is quite responsive. I have it retransmit audio to a Bluetooth speaker bar (Kuryakyn or something of that nature) and there’s a slight delay between clicking the play/pause and it being transmitted in the speaker. It’s noticeable but fine and you could probably reduce it by transmitting directly to the speaker instead of via retransmit (but you’ll have to select the output each time on your phone via this route since it expects to use the CarPlay speaker). You can of course use the CarPlay device’s speaker too but I wouldn’t recommend it on a motorcycle!
I also have a CarPlay wired - to - wireless adapter and there’s more delay with that than with this IMO.
Please don’t mount any phone on your bicycle or motorcycle. Here is why:
* The screen is not transflective (e.g. Garmin Edge, Nintendo Gameboy -> more light is better)
* The device isn’t made for heat or cold (Garmin allows -20 to + 60, an iPhone can only operate between 0 and +35 which is easily reached in sunlight at modest outside temperatures)
* The battery will be quicker discharged and you want be reachable
* It not hardened against forces, especially the glas display and (even worse) the Glas backside can and will break
* It is a distraction (danger)
* No mount built-in
In other words, the camera is your least problem. My recommendation for cyclists is therefore a Garmin, Wahoo or Karoo. But they are expensive? As smartphones are. Sadly I cannot recommend similar to motorcycles. Maybe some other?
PS: I cannot recommend any device from Apple for sport. The phones are too big and the Apple Watch cannot even broadcast the HR to an Apple TV. Yes! Lol! Apple is now incompatible to Apple!
Apple will allow you to connect sensors to their Watch/Phone in future (iOS17). Which is again bad because you’re not allowed to connect the Watch to a cycling computer (or Apple TV). Apple just wants your data, not providing a good device for sport or any outside activities. The complete industry outside of Apple is bidirectional compatible (you can connect anything to anything by ANT+ or BLE).
The phone is absolutely idea if you want directions occasionally while cycling in city. I have a mount on my handlebars and probably use a phone on it for an hour or so a week. Works perfectly and I'm not going buy a dedicated device that I am unlikely to have with me.
Why would you expect to be able to broadcast HR to an Apple TV?
In terms of Apple 'just wanting your data'. They don't get your Health data. It sits on your device. It exports quite happily from Health to, for example, Stava
I just finished a >6,000 mile motorcycle trip. I used a rebadged Garmin (BMW Navigator VI). I have a vibration-reducing mount (quad lock) for my phone. I never use it.
Reasons:
* Phone interfaces (maps, almost any app) are designed to have your full visual attention. They don't mind changing (zoom levels on maps, the evil bastards) to look more interactive.
* A specialized GPS will have its interfaced designed for "glance interactions." You peek at it, then go back to riding. If you have to touch something, you'll poke it with a high error rate, and the interface has to not completely screw up. That means keeping the "stop navigating" button far away from the "find next gas station" button.
* As you said, physical concerns: vibration, heat, cold.
* The GPS is mounted to be pretty theft proof. Phones you always have to take with you.
* With gloves, the touch screen is only 4x as large as my thumb. The only people I see successfully using it have cut the thumb and forefinger off their gloves.
Edit: modern touring bikes usually have either a GPS mount, their own GPS system, and/or carplay/android auto.
I've been using Organic Maps lately and I really appreciate how it has separate "zoom in" and "zoom out" buttons. And regular-sized buttons, not tiny ones that I can't hit.
When biking, I can easily tap on either of these while holding the phone with one hand.
OTOH, Apple Maps and Google Maps require pinch-to-zoom... which is incredible hard to do with the hand that you're holding the phone. And using a phone with both hands while biking is pretty darn risky.
It would seem that nobody at either the Apple Maps and Google Maps teams use their product while biking.
Most of these points would apply if you use phone in your car for navigation, and most of them are not a real issue (expect being a distraction maybe).
Screen is good enough to be used in a sunny day, phone will easily reach more than 35 degrees if you play a graphics-heavy game, so this is also not an issue, battery with a battery saver mode will easily last for a few hours even if you use Google Maps all the time, and with a good mount there is a zero chance you will drop your phone and break something.
When an iPhone reaches high temperature it turns off navigation automatically. Actually newer iPhones automatically go into a low power “failsafe” mode even when not in active use. If that happens you’re only allowed to make emergency phone calls, all apps are forced off.
Source: Apples documentation and my own surprise when it did.
I don’t know much about games but assume iPhones can and will limit the core frequency before the self generated heat will be an issue. What they cannot control is the environment.
For me the most important point is "It's a distraction". The other day I was talking to a friend and told me that I was insane to have the phone mounted in the handle bar, and even though that I've that in place I do still believe he's right.
The advice that he gave was: "Well just keep driving, if you make a mistake you simply take the next exit and come back". Which again I think is pretty good advice, you get used to do that and to drive by either memory or instinct.
I do somehow still feel that I need the map, at least in some situations, the city where I'm living at the moment is literally a "spaghetti" of roads and very easy to get confused. Guess time will tell which works better for me.
I had to take a few ubers in Orlando last week (a city I don't spend time in) and two out of my five uber drivers just had a tablet mounted playing movies and music videos that they'd watch while they drove. I was pretty shocked. The third of five was texting half the drive.
I feel like (at least in my circles) texting and driving/distracted driving in general was a big deal in the early 2010s, but now people seem to have accepted that they'll send a text on the highway. It's upsetting to say the least.
Navigation by voice works quite well for me. Just connect the phone to the helmet's intercom and turn on voice navigation on e.g. Google Maps. If you have that option, I'd give it a go. Granted it might not be at it's best in "spaghetti" cities, but it has served me reasonably well in those scenarios as well.
> For me the most important point is "It's a distraction".
How?? There's already a screen or at least dials in the same spot (I have my phone mount center bars). I'm not some bird, having my vision distracted by notifications popping up; the dials are moving around anyway. If I need it, it's there. It's a HELL of a lot better than squinting at street signs of trying to figure out what lane to be in. If I don't need it, I feel zero urge to look at it. It's far away, it's the same brightness as everything else, I don't understand what could be distracting about it.
> The advice that he gave was: "Well just keep driving, if you make a mistake you simply take the next exit and come back". Which again I think is pretty good advice, you get used to do that and to drive by either memory or instinct.
Safety on a motorcycle means knowing your escape routes, being early to turn, making sure you aren't even giving drivers the opportunity to be surprised. You want to merge into a lane before it ever gets crowded. You never want to be let into a lane, you want to switch while space is completely open.
Planning is the essential difference between a car and a motorcycle. To turn a car, you turn the wheel. Turning a bike is a 3-step plan. If you just turned, you'd tip over from centrifugal force. So you commit to a lean angle before you even enter the turn. To create the lean, you have to turn the bars opposite the road direction, to countersteer. So you plan that step too. But you also have to plan for avoiding something mid-turn, so you have to get a lean angle that allows you to adjust in a safe direction.
The point is, you need to know where you will be going. Having directions is a major part of that. If you live on a grid with numbered streets- fine, go for it. But in a city with even moderately complicated roads, or a crowded highway, having directions DOES make you safer.
I mount my phone on my motorcycle and use it for navigation / maps. Yes, it's a distraction, but I need to know where I'm going and stopping at every intersection to check my phone also makes no sense.
Heavy upvote. Reading street signs is a distraction. For me, even just stressing about finding a road -here in boston, a missed turn can mean a 30 minute delay- is a major distraction.
Nobody is reading texts on a motorcycle. Well, except maybe those guys on mopeds without helmets. If you're listening to music or directions, having the volume easy to reach is a strict improvement over having it in a pocket.
Before the days of digital maps I'd only ever quickly glance at a paper map to get a feel for where my destination is and then... just drive. You get there. Maybe you go an intersection too far sometimes, but who cares? If you've chosen a motorcycle over a car, it is no doubt because you enjoy riding. Enjoy it.
Please do not buy a special device for navigation.
Use an old or a cheap smartphone or tablet with GPS. Install a decent navigation software with offline maps (e.g. Osmand). Remove the sim card. Turn off Wifi. Familiarize yourself with the software so you don't get distracted by any obscurities while driving. Try it out before you go on long trips with it. With Osmand, you can even freely customize the user interface to suit your preferences and needs.
If you use it like a navigation device, it won't be more distracting than a navigation device. And it's a good way to reuse old hardware.
I have the previous phone, 7 or 8 years old, still running as a GPS or Strava on the bicycle. That phone is electronic waste otherwise, on the motorcycle I can connect it to the charger and the battery is not a problem.
In this context "don't mount any phone ..." is wrong. If you want to say "don't mount your main phone", you are right, I never do. Only when I cycle I use Strava on the main phone in the pocket, not on the handlebars, but this is not the use case in the article.
Apple doesn't care about cycling, because Apple doesn't want to make a head unit to compete with Wahoo, Garmin, or Karoo. That's fine. But that also means they have no motivation to publish the HR data from the watch to something else.
Runners are happy with it. Cyclists already have something else. There's nothing nefarious here.
It also sounds like you don't know that much about motorcycling. MANY bikes include a USB port close to the cockpit so that a device can draw power in use, so the battery thing isn't really an issue. There exist shock-absorbing mounts that will protect lenses and other aspects of the camera.
The sensor support added to watchOS 10 is really nice and the live displays of cycling stats in iOS 17 has made it so I can use my phone for stats and feedback while on bike rides
Happened to my Pixel too. Replaced the camera once, the second time I gave up and retired it because it was old anyway.
QuadLock sells a "dampener" accessory, so in total I'd say they're scamming you for not making that the default, and damaging your device in the process.
I love how everything has to be "blandified" to make it sound less significant than it is when it comes to diagnosing and characterizing a problem by Apple. And I don't exempt other companies from this dumbing down or "unhysterifying" language as well.
"Exposing your iPhone to high amplitude vibrations within certain frequency ranges, specifically those generated by high-power motorcycle engines, can degrade the performance of the camera system."
No, it doesn't kill your camera, it just "degrades" it to the point of unusability. Your battery didn't explode, it just experienced a "thermal event"! Your screen isn't cracked, it just has "user-induced fragmentation anomalies"!
Contrast that with all the intensifiers used when describing the circumstances. It's not vibrations from motorcycle engines causing it, it's "high amplitude" vibrations from "high power" engines.
All completely non qualified as well. What's high power? As high as you can imagine for marketing purposes, but as low as Apple wants it to be for warranty claims.
This is why I think it's so strange that Apple shows mounting an iPhone to a bike handlebar as an official use case in their latest watch presentation, where you can use the phone as a second display to show workout metrics from your watch. On one hand they tell you not to do it because it can break your phone, on the other hand they build features that assume you will do it anyway.
As a casual r/motorcycles browser: it's now common knowledge (there, at least) that you absolutely need a vibration damper if you're mounting your phone.
Readit News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn50z2PEDEA
> Always use a dampener with your iPhone when riding as shown. Use only with low-powered bikes and avoid prolonged use.
It always disappoints me regulators just let this kind of faux-disclaimer slide. This is just lying with your fingers crossed behind your back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYCnHebwTCM
And it does work, I would have over 150 recorded swimming workouts (45 minutes to an hour each) on my Apple Watch SE.
> high-power motorcycle engines
Neither “high-power” nor “motorcycle” are words I would use to characterize the vehicle in that advertisement.
Declining to call it a motorcycle because the motor is small relative to other motorcycles is little more than snobbery, and it's a snobbery that discourages people from buying a (larger) motorcycle that fits their needs, because of a historic arbitrary distinction between small and large motorcycles that require separate licensing for large motorcycles; a distinction that should be eliminated either by applying licensing requirements uniformly to all motorcycles or uniformly eliminating the licensing requirements from all motorcycles.
Also: Vibration spectrum and power distribution probably also make a Zuge difference (for the iphone's lens/autofocus mechanism)
Electric motorcycles are also really smooth.
Words I would use are 'manipulating gig workers nto thinking they can/should/must own a phone that far exceeds the value of their scooter.'
I have a Mac (computer) that I used for work stuff but I will never get the cult-like fantacism that drives the mobile phone sales side, even this ad screams of RATM No Shelter:
The poor adore keep fiendin' for more
The thin line between entertainment and war
Fix the need, develop the taste
Buy their products or get laid to waste
I had an older iiphone (sub 9) and the reason I got it was because the app I used it for pretty much abandoned Android support entirely, nothing on the Android version worked and was not being updated despite a significant outcry for support. It then died when I took it to EU (where they have almost no penetration) and used a phone charger and lost like $60 worth of Bitcoin on that phone.
I'm glad I'm a millennial that never got sucked into these stupid things, unlike most of my generation: I almost always have a laptop on me that can do everything a mobile phone can do with a much better UX and security/privacy,
With that said, I drove with my older S. Korean made LG Android on my motorcycles all the time and never had an issue, so... blame Foxconn made QA?
(though to be fair to the other commenters, the vibration there is probably greatly reduced due to the fact of being more a scooter than a motorbike - being kept loosely on a holder instead of clamped also helps)
Nothing to say about the product, but man I needed to comment on the video that the product page shows. I think they did a fantastic job with it.
There was something utterly satisfying to me, about the detail of adding a "click" sound every time the image shows someone snapping a phone into its mount. I just assumed it as a natural and expected sound since the second instance when it happens.
In olden times, the former would make your phone wet via vibration (how left as an exercise to the reader) while the latter would attenuate or suppress or reduce vibration.
A damper [1] doth damp, dammit.
[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/damper
The vibration-dampening mounts for phones are so ugly and add significant bulk to the phone.
https://www.chubbybuttons.io/
The CarPlay interface is quite responsive. I have it retransmit audio to a Bluetooth speaker bar (Kuryakyn or something of that nature) and there’s a slight delay between clicking the play/pause and it being transmitted in the speaker. It’s noticeable but fine and you could probably reduce it by transmitting directly to the speaker instead of via retransmit (but you’ll have to select the output each time on your phone via this route since it expects to use the CarPlay speaker). You can of course use the CarPlay device’s speaker too but I wouldn’t recommend it on a motorcycle!
I also have a CarPlay wired - to - wireless adapter and there’s more delay with that than with this IMO.
PS: I cannot recommend any device from Apple for sport. The phones are too big and the Apple Watch cannot even broadcast the HR to an Apple TV. Yes! Lol! Apple is now incompatible to Apple!
Apple will allow you to connect sensors to their Watch/Phone in future (iOS17). Which is again bad because you’re not allowed to connect the Watch to a cycling computer (or Apple TV). Apple just wants your data, not providing a good device for sport or any outside activities. The complete industry outside of Apple is bidirectional compatible (you can connect anything to anything by ANT+ or BLE).
Why would you expect to be able to broadcast HR to an Apple TV?
In terms of Apple 'just wanting your data'. They don't get your Health data. It sits on your device. It exports quite happily from Health to, for example, Stava
Reasons:
Edit: modern touring bikes usually have either a GPS mount, their own GPS system, and/or carplay/android auto.When biking, I can easily tap on either of these while holding the phone with one hand.
OTOH, Apple Maps and Google Maps require pinch-to-zoom... which is incredible hard to do with the hand that you're holding the phone. And using a phone with both hands while biking is pretty darn risky.
It would seem that nobody at either the Apple Maps and Google Maps teams use their product while biking.
Screen is good enough to be used in a sunny day, phone will easily reach more than 35 degrees if you play a graphics-heavy game, so this is also not an issue, battery with a battery saver mode will easily last for a few hours even if you use Google Maps all the time, and with a good mount there is a zero chance you will drop your phone and break something.
Source: Apples documentation and my own surprise when it did.
I don’t know much about games but assume iPhones can and will limit the core frequency before the self generated heat will be an issue. What they cannot control is the environment.
The advice that he gave was: "Well just keep driving, if you make a mistake you simply take the next exit and come back". Which again I think is pretty good advice, you get used to do that and to drive by either memory or instinct.
I do somehow still feel that I need the map, at least in some situations, the city where I'm living at the moment is literally a "spaghetti" of roads and very easy to get confused. Guess time will tell which works better for me.
I feel like (at least in my circles) texting and driving/distracted driving in general was a big deal in the early 2010s, but now people seem to have accepted that they'll send a text on the highway. It's upsetting to say the least.
How?? There's already a screen or at least dials in the same spot (I have my phone mount center bars). I'm not some bird, having my vision distracted by notifications popping up; the dials are moving around anyway. If I need it, it's there. It's a HELL of a lot better than squinting at street signs of trying to figure out what lane to be in. If I don't need it, I feel zero urge to look at it. It's far away, it's the same brightness as everything else, I don't understand what could be distracting about it.
> The advice that he gave was: "Well just keep driving, if you make a mistake you simply take the next exit and come back". Which again I think is pretty good advice, you get used to do that and to drive by either memory or instinct.
Safety on a motorcycle means knowing your escape routes, being early to turn, making sure you aren't even giving drivers the opportunity to be surprised. You want to merge into a lane before it ever gets crowded. You never want to be let into a lane, you want to switch while space is completely open.
Planning is the essential difference between a car and a motorcycle. To turn a car, you turn the wheel. Turning a bike is a 3-step plan. If you just turned, you'd tip over from centrifugal force. So you commit to a lean angle before you even enter the turn. To create the lean, you have to turn the bars opposite the road direction, to countersteer. So you plan that step too. But you also have to plan for avoiding something mid-turn, so you have to get a lean angle that allows you to adjust in a safe direction.
The point is, you need to know where you will be going. Having directions is a major part of that. If you live on a grid with numbered streets- fine, go for it. But in a city with even moderately complicated roads, or a crowded highway, having directions DOES make you safer.
Nobody is reading texts on a motorcycle. Well, except maybe those guys on mopeds without helmets. If you're listening to music or directions, having the volume easy to reach is a strict improvement over having it in a pocket.
Use an old or a cheap smartphone or tablet with GPS. Install a decent navigation software with offline maps (e.g. Osmand). Remove the sim card. Turn off Wifi. Familiarize yourself with the software so you don't get distracted by any obscurities while driving. Try it out before you go on long trips with it. With Osmand, you can even freely customize the user interface to suit your preferences and needs.
If you use it like a navigation device, it won't be more distracting than a navigation device. And it's a good way to reuse old hardware.
In this context "don't mount any phone ..." is wrong. If you want to say "don't mount your main phone", you are right, I never do. Only when I cycle I use Strava on the main phone in the pocket, not on the handlebars, but this is not the use case in the article.
Runners are happy with it. Cyclists already have something else. There's nothing nefarious here.
It also sounds like you don't know that much about motorcycling. MANY bikes include a USB port close to the cockpit so that a device can draw power in use, so the battery thing isn't really an issue. There exist shock-absorbing mounts that will protect lenses and other aspects of the camera.
QuadLock sells a "dampener" accessory, so in total I'd say they're scamming you for not making that the default, and damaging your device in the process.
Official support page on the matter, even iFixit have recommended not mounting iPhone's on handlebars for years
"Exposing your iPhone to high amplitude vibrations within certain frequency ranges, specifically those generated by high-power motorcycle engines, can degrade the performance of the camera system."
No, it doesn't kill your camera, it just "degrades" it to the point of unusability. Your battery didn't explode, it just experienced a "thermal event"! Your screen isn't cracked, it just has "user-induced fragmentation anomalies"!
My rocket didn't explode, it "spontaneously disassembled" mid flight.
That deployment that pushed me beyond my physical and emotional limits, of which I may never recover, was "challenging".
That absolute cluster fuck of a rollout "presented opportunities to improve our organization".
Contrast that with all the intensifiers used when describing the circumstances. It's not vibrations from motorcycle engines causing it, it's "high amplitude" vibrations from "high power" engines.
All completely non qualified as well. What's high power? As high as you can imagine for marketing purposes, but as low as Apple wants it to be for warranty claims.
It's just the fact that continued degradation will result in a non-functioning device eventually =)
https://youtu.be/GYkq9Rgoj8E?t=4292
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuOQdo7t3Xk
Also, it's a repairable issue. Happened to me and Apple fixed it quickly (covered by AppleCare+ in my case)
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