Why not change to anabolic steroids in title because they’re not talking about corticosteroids. It’s extrapolated from 2015 data also.
There is a lot of talk about negative effects that are widely known. At a bodybuilder or high medicinal level, you can work out multiple times per day at max effort without getting tired and only hungry or sweaty. Your brain will work at the highest efficiency but you may have issues applying it. You may not even need to sleep depending when you take it and for how long.
Using it will either scare you to stop or you can take them until your kidneys fail and you’re in a wheelchair like Ronnie Coleman. If you live long enough maybe you end up with testicular cancer or it supercharges your brain and you end up curing cancer.
Nobody on anabolic steroids can work out at max effort without getting tired, or being able to go without sleep, you're probably thinking of meth, not AAS.
And what do kidneys have to do with processing steroids?
And why bring up Ronnie Coleman as an example when his issue was that, 2 days after spinal surgery, against all recommendations, he decided to squat 800 pounds?
And steroids increase DHT, which can be a risk factor in PROSTATE cancer, not testicular cancer.
I’ve the past several months, due to publicized advancements in LLM tech, I’ve started to read comments on HN and elsewhere with the ready assumption that these fora are prime training grounds for chat bots, and any given post may very well be machine-generated. The parent comment fits the bill completely, down to the username. Of course I can’t tell for sure, and there’s no question that real people have a proven capability for nonsensical statements, but sometimes there is a Mad Libs quality to a comment that makes me regard it as a likely byproduct of some hacker’s AI side project.
Are you speaking from experience as you have used steroids at the levels bodybuilders use or prescribed them? I have. Incorrect dosage timing i.e. taking them in the evening leads to little or no sleep.
Kidneys end up failing soon with all the associated supplements and drugs.
I merely wanted to comment about some side effects and give easy to understand examples because I did not see anyone mention the benefits yet. Thanks for going into more detail than I cared to. I think posting only benefits would be foolish.
TRT is now a fully embedded thing in the United States so this isn't totally surprising.
I've talked to way too many 20 year olds who get cypionate from a doc in the box who manages to find "low T"
It's just so easy now. And if you need it, great. But for a lot of people it's just a way to boost T for athletic/aesthetic reasons without a ton of attention to the health side of it.
The risks are generally low, but boosting to higher T levels does come with real health risks that should be met with regular testing with a doctor.
>The risks are generally low, but boosting to higher T levels does come with real health risks that should be met with regular testing with a doctor.
Most people don't have a clue. That includes doctors.
- the reference range has been adapted times and times again
- testosterone levels have been falling since industrial times
- for some strange and contrived reasons a lot of people think that the levels of a healthy 18-year old are "unhealthy" as soon as you pass 40. But you should ask yourself what makes it "unhealthy". And why a low level should be "healthy"
Instead of judging the 20 year olds who want to be at the upper range you should have a look at the side effects which come with the lower range. And then have a look at the general population and check for these side effects.
You are displaying exactly the problematic cherry picking that you are railing against, but from the other side.
Reference ranges are always adapted to specific populations.
Testosterone levels have not necessarily been falling since industrial times - records farther back than 50-70 years are extremely error prone and sporadic since methods of testing have changed dramatically.
Doctors are not saying that a 40 year old having the same testosterone level as an 18 year are "unhealthy" en masse. It is simply normal for the hormone to decrease as one ages. There is no "strange and contrived reason". It's just how the human body works and isn't a problem unless it goes too low and causes dysfunction of some kind.
The reason for lower testosterone is probably very boring and not some insidious thing like you're implying: people are more obese because they eat more calories, and this is strongly linked to lower testosterone levels.
This is of interest to me as I saw an Endocrinologist last Monday as I had a blood test a few weeks ago and my testosterone level was "quite low" at 257 (bottom of the range being 249).
Anything under 300 along with symptoms (of which I have several hence the blood test in the first place) means further investigation so I am now waiting for the results of a whole host of blood tests that I did last Tuesday that the Endocrinologist ordered. 9 vials! Never had so much blood taken in one go.
I am 39 and never really gave any thought to my testosterone levels if I am honest. But I have been suffering from a whole host of weird issues the past ~3 years. However I am not sure if TRT is something I want to do if it comes back that they are indeed low and it wasn't just a one-off in the first test.
At least it isn't something I want to try first, I will see what other things I can do naturally such as diet changes before I head down the TRT injections, gels, etc. route.
For what it's worth I am in [redacted] not the US and I've never known anyone on TRT. Honestly I had never even heard of it outside of sports with people that [ab]use such things.
I am in nearly the same boat as you. I'm 38, and 1 year ago, I had my testosterone levels checked. The results came back at 273ng/dL, which is considered deficient. When I asked about TRT, My doctor refused to prescribe it, but, couldn't provide any valid reasons or research to backup his one justification that "it makes your blood thicker, and increases the risk of heart attack" (see below).
After doing tons of reading, I decided TRT is something I want. I went to a very questionable "doctor" who will prescribe effectively anything you ask for—(Just Google 'Mens Health Clinic <your area>').
Below, I've listed some of the more compelling videos and articles I went through [0]
The main reason I wanted to try TRT is that I've suffered from severe depression for a long-time; literally, suicide was a daily thought. I tried all the other things people say to do; I ate right, and I religiously tracked my diet. I got sleep-tracking apps and devices and fixed my sleep to get 8+ hours of sleep. After all that didn't help, I went to my normal family doctor, who prescribed escitalopram which "fixed" my depression by making me unable to feel anything, which was a terrible way to live. So I stopped taking that.
I started TRT back in July of 2022.
After being on TRT for about five months, the depression just disappeared. I've had other benefits, too, such as significantly improved musical tone (though this isn't why I started TRT, but it's a nice side-effect).
Do your own research on that. Even endocrinologists oversee obvious reasons for low testosterone.
Usually, low testosterone is more a symptom. Better fix the underlying issue. Get somebody with expertise to look at your tests (i.e. not a government-paid doctor).
In defense of the people getting it: that's kind of the tricky part.
My understanding of medical science is that we have a big wide range of what "normal" testosterone levels are in males, and it's expected to drop to some extent as you age, but the range is so big as to be almost meaningless.
I'm not sure what the long-term answer is, but we could benefit a lot from long-term studies on T levels throughout the male lifetime to get a better idea of what the optimal level is for at least the "average" male.
This feels like one of the areas of study that is politically problematic, and therefore avoided.
It would be interesting to understand why the body is lowering it, might also be the body adopting to certain conditions. Could be that artificially boosting it, goes against something the body is trying to regulate. Or it could just be a side-effect of body in decline.
I recall at some point a huge flood of ads for TRT and Testosterone boosters, seemingly out of nowhere. A bit separate from the whole line of more typical products from companies like Hims (for hair loss, ED, etc). For that reason, I don't trust it. It's some land rush and money grab and I don't think proper due diligence is being done.
When people's body stop producing testosterone on their own and they are forced to spend money on weekly injections for the rest of their life people will learn :) When you can't go anywhere or travel without your testosterone injections people will see how overkill it was to get on HRT. Hope these people are comfortable freezing their sperm. Now if you are over the age of 60-65 blast away
Whoa, it's not HRT, it's TRT. Completely different. HRT is for people with gender dysphoria, whereas TRT is for normal, well-adjusted, no-dysphoric men to maintain healthy testosterone levels (or as high as they can convince their PCP, or more likely, a telemedicine mill, to prescribe), regardless of how healthy they eat, how much alcohol they drink, and how consistent they are with exercise and sleep.
hah i was thinking about trt too when i saw this title. I cant believe how much seemingly casual use it is getting for people to be a little better at their hobbies.
> I cant believe how much seemingly casual use it is getting for people to be a little better at their hobbies.
From my general observations, insecurity is rife in bodybuilding but generally nonexistent in powerlifting and strongman. Powerlifters/strongmen will use steroids for sport performance reasons and they’re generally in the sport because they just like lifting heavy shit. They’re not really comparing themselves to others, just trying to beat their previous PR and they’re generally not doing it to attract women. To an untrained eye they can often times look like a fat dude.
In contrast, a lot of bodybuilders are in the sport because they’re insecure and/or want to attract women. I would say the majority of lads training in the gym are really doing it for these two reasons. This is only made worse when they scan the gym and compare the weight they can lift with that of a power lifter who’s often times no where near as big yet capable of lifting more. As a result, you’re far, far more likely to see bodybuilders getting in scraps than powerlifters and strongmen, half because of the testosterone and half because of the insecurity. Sometimes they’ll find the confidence they’re seeking if they get big enough or start getting women but often times not. A lot of them would be better off doing a a martial art or boxing, probably the former as there’s more of a culture of “you only use this in self defence if you absolutely have to” whereas the majority of local street fighters almost always seem to have a boxing background and something to prove.
I was told your own body stops producing testosterone and this is permanent. So you are signing up to get injections in your ass once a week for the rest of your life. No idea if this is actually true though, I find it hard to believe personally as many bodybuilders will cycle on and off steroids constantly.
Prostatitis and amplification of undetected existing prostate cancer, and blood clots, are the big two I think? There are minor ones, like decreased sperm count and acne, but people going on TRT probably don't much care about them.
Yeah usage from early 20s group at my gym significantly higher than 10 years ago. But also lots of unimpressive results due to poor training or weak T responders.
If the medical community had been more open about the negligible risks of moderate doses, we could have had a real conversation about it and gotten people reasonable supplementation. Instead, the medical community stayed lockstep in calling it unhealthy/illegal and people learned about it from youtube and bb.com forums.
> But more surprising was the amount of hordenine and ostarine – described by the programme-makers as often being found in gym supplements, which made up more than half of the pharmaceuticals found.
Ostarine is a SARM, and supposedly there was more of that than cocaine or MDMA residue in a London sewer "fatberg."
Well, that's the thing, SARMs aren't "steroids" in a technical sense, but are in a colloquial sense. Maybe there's a seemingly low number of people are taking literal anabolic steroids, but are taking other PEDs recreationally instead.
Health impacts on the individual users of trt are just one aspect, it impacts other people. I live in an area where use is common and I'm tired of running into obviously roiding men who act much more aggressive than normal people in public. My experiences are retail and and driving. I've assumed that the tacit approval for steroid usage among law enforcement in the US has at least partially responsible police brutality incidents.
Testosterone supplementation is very unlikely to be causative for what you're running into. Test is incredibly mild in psychological effect (unless you're deficient). This kind of stereotype comes from trenbolone, but I think you shouldn't under-estimate the intersection of steroid users and cocaine users. It's bigger than you might intuitively guess.
Are you even confident in your ability to spot someone who is "roiding" brother? TRT is a pretty standard hormonal therapy that helps men with low testosterone levels, it is not comparable to dbol or other literal anabolic steroids. In most men it will improve attitude and mood, not cause "roid rage".
I have never tried it but know a lot of bodybuilders who use various steroids. The responsible ones have it that a person shouldn't take them until they've hit their natural limits, then do a limited course (6 weeks) while doing before/after bloodwork, the idea being to push through limits and blow up a bit while on the steroid and then lock in those gains with maintenance exercise, repeating maybe every 6 months or a year if still trying to grow larger. Abusive dosing (larger quantities or longer cycles or doubling up with other drugs like SARMS) are well known to mess up your natural cycle, shrink your junk etc.
It's less than 2% of all adult males. I would guess that the peak age group for anabolic steroid use is ages 30-40 (that is, end-of-youth crisis not the youngest) but I'd be interested to know for sure.
Edit: government data says I am wrong. 25-29, apparently. But that's based on self-reporting so I do wonder.
Anabolic steroids and growth hormones should be legal, and their dosing programs be easily-obtainable by endocrinologists (though not reimbursable through health insurance)
As it stands, if you've just started bodybuilding and want to get growth hormones, unless you're rich and well-connected enough, a pro or ex-Pro athlete or an A/B-list actor, your best bet is testosterone.
This means going to the black/gray-markets or to forums to:
1. get your supply, which is almost always imported from Eastern Europe or Asia and has variable quality control, and
2. your programming, which is highly dependent on your body (and everyone's body is different!)
Bad programming is what kills/seriously injures people!
Then again, the folks that would rather make this and other hard drugs illegal and horrifically addicting and fatal would probably consider that a feature, not a bug.
After skipping gym for one month I'm losing all muscles and turning into the weakling I am. I'm wondering on every visit "how these guys maintain their muscles?! they must be injecting, inserting, and swallowing some substances... right?"
I don’t know if you’re serious or not, but one month is not enough time for you to lose significant gains. Even if you do lose strength or mass it’s much easier to get it back than it is to initially build. I took a year off during the pandemic and was able to get back to my previous lift numbers in about 2-3 months.
There's absolutely no way a natural will lose all of their gains if they skip the gym for a month, unless you're doing short periods of going to the gym, then not going to the gym (say month on, month off), then at that point you're not really losing muscle, there was not much muscle to begin with, your muscle just became depleted instead, two other explanations could be either being seriously ill, or simply severely undereating for the period of that month to the point that your body cannibalizes itself.
Genetics is a sonofabitch. I haven’t been a to a gym in 20 years, and yet people ask me what my routine is.
Sit on the couch, smoke, eat chocolate. Your mileage may vary.
I did do an unholy amount of exercise from 12-20 (rowing), which may have put a few epigenetic switches in useful locations, as before that I was a spherical child, but honestly, I have no idea how I maintain cardio and strength with frankly small bursts of infrequent activity.
For a lot of people the gym is a relaxing "third place"[1] that they truly are sad to miss for a period of time.
I'm sure some percentage are augmenting, but it is surprising how common it to see people on social media declaring that people with the slightest bit of definition or muscles as steroid users.
[1] Should we call it the "second place" in the era of WFH?
>For a lot of people the gym is a relaxing "third place"[1] that they truly are sad to miss for a period of time.
Not at all in my case. In my youth gyms were places for hooligans, _heavy_ steroids abusers, low end criminals, and thus places to avoid. Then spent some years in Germany where gym contracts are famously predatory and abusive, again a place to avoid. Only around 2 years ago had found a civilized place finally. Starting to visit regularly meant to actually overcome some traumas.
I don't know anyone who works out regularly who would take a month break. Maybe if they are injured they'd take a month (or more) off of that specific muscle group.
That's like not brushing your teeth for a month, it's not the done thing. The Americans I know don't even take a month off work, lol.
This is about 1.8% of adult males, if one starts with a (pretty good) first approximation that essentially all anabolic steroid users are adult males over 18.
(I would be really surprised if this figure is higher than the USA, considering the differences in regulation)
Readit News
There is a lot of talk about negative effects that are widely known. At a bodybuilder or high medicinal level, you can work out multiple times per day at max effort without getting tired and only hungry or sweaty. Your brain will work at the highest efficiency but you may have issues applying it. You may not even need to sleep depending when you take it and for how long.
Using it will either scare you to stop or you can take them until your kidneys fail and you’re in a wheelchair like Ronnie Coleman. If you live long enough maybe you end up with testicular cancer or it supercharges your brain and you end up curing cancer.
Nobody on anabolic steroids can work out at max effort without getting tired, or being able to go without sleep, you're probably thinking of meth, not AAS.
And what do kidneys have to do with processing steroids?
And why bring up Ronnie Coleman as an example when his issue was that, 2 days after spinal surgery, against all recommendations, he decided to squat 800 pounds?
And steroids increase DHT, which can be a risk factor in PROSTATE cancer, not testicular cancer.
Kidneys end up failing soon with all the associated supplements and drugs.
I merely wanted to comment about some side effects and give easy to understand examples because I did not see anyone mention the benefits yet. Thanks for going into more detail than I cared to. I think posting only benefits would be foolish.
I've talked to way too many 20 year olds who get cypionate from a doc in the box who manages to find "low T"
It's just so easy now. And if you need it, great. But for a lot of people it's just a way to boost T for athletic/aesthetic reasons without a ton of attention to the health side of it.
The risks are generally low, but boosting to higher T levels does come with real health risks that should be met with regular testing with a doctor.
Most people don't have a clue. That includes doctors.
- the reference range has been adapted times and times again
- testosterone levels have been falling since industrial times
- for some strange and contrived reasons a lot of people think that the levels of a healthy 18-year old are "unhealthy" as soon as you pass 40. But you should ask yourself what makes it "unhealthy". And why a low level should be "healthy"
Instead of judging the 20 year olds who want to be at the upper range you should have a look at the side effects which come with the lower range. And then have a look at the general population and check for these side effects.
Reference ranges are always adapted to specific populations.
Testosterone levels have not necessarily been falling since industrial times - records farther back than 50-70 years are extremely error prone and sporadic since methods of testing have changed dramatically.
Doctors are not saying that a 40 year old having the same testosterone level as an 18 year are "unhealthy" en masse. It is simply normal for the hormone to decrease as one ages. There is no "strange and contrived reason". It's just how the human body works and isn't a problem unless it goes too low and causes dysfunction of some kind.
The reason for lower testosterone is probably very boring and not some insidious thing like you're implying: people are more obese because they eat more calories, and this is strongly linked to lower testosterone levels.
Anything under 300 along with symptoms (of which I have several hence the blood test in the first place) means further investigation so I am now waiting for the results of a whole host of blood tests that I did last Tuesday that the Endocrinologist ordered. 9 vials! Never had so much blood taken in one go.
I am 39 and never really gave any thought to my testosterone levels if I am honest. But I have been suffering from a whole host of weird issues the past ~3 years. However I am not sure if TRT is something I want to do if it comes back that they are indeed low and it wasn't just a one-off in the first test.
At least it isn't something I want to try first, I will see what other things I can do naturally such as diet changes before I head down the TRT injections, gels, etc. route.
For what it's worth I am in [redacted] not the US and I've never known anyone on TRT. Honestly I had never even heard of it outside of sports with people that [ab]use such things.
After doing tons of reading, I decided TRT is something I want. I went to a very questionable "doctor" who will prescribe effectively anything you ask for—(Just Google 'Mens Health Clinic <your area>'). Below, I've listed some of the more compelling videos and articles I went through [0]
The main reason I wanted to try TRT is that I've suffered from severe depression for a long-time; literally, suicide was a daily thought. I tried all the other things people say to do; I ate right, and I religiously tracked my diet. I got sleep-tracking apps and devices and fixed my sleep to get 8+ hours of sleep. After all that didn't help, I went to my normal family doctor, who prescribed escitalopram which "fixed" my depression by making me unable to feel anything, which was a terrible way to live. So I stopped taking that.
I started TRT back in July of 2022.
After being on TRT for about five months, the depression just disappeared. I've had other benefits, too, such as significantly improved musical tone (though this isn't why I started TRT, but it's a nice side-effect).
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBhfP3MBYLU [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j232kdcnSQ [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081788/ [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/ [0] https://www.eu-focus.europeanurology.com/article/S2405-4569(...
Usually, low testosterone is more a symptom. Better fix the underlying issue. Get somebody with expertise to look at your tests (i.e. not a government-paid doctor).
Look also into thyroid etc
In defense of the people getting it: that's kind of the tricky part.
My understanding of medical science is that we have a big wide range of what "normal" testosterone levels are in males, and it's expected to drop to some extent as you age, but the range is so big as to be almost meaningless.
I'm not sure what the long-term answer is, but we could benefit a lot from long-term studies on T levels throughout the male lifetime to get a better idea of what the optimal level is for at least the "average" male.
This feels like one of the areas of study that is politically problematic, and therefore avoided.
Whoa, it's not HRT, it's TRT. Completely different. HRT is for people with gender dysphoria, whereas TRT is for normal, well-adjusted, no-dysphoric men to maintain healthy testosterone levels (or as high as they can convince their PCP, or more likely, a telemedicine mill, to prescribe), regardless of how healthy they eat, how much alcohol they drink, and how consistent they are with exercise and sleep.
Totally not the same thing.
Absolutely, like shutting off your body's natural T production (!)
From my general observations, insecurity is rife in bodybuilding but generally nonexistent in powerlifting and strongman. Powerlifters/strongmen will use steroids for sport performance reasons and they’re generally in the sport because they just like lifting heavy shit. They’re not really comparing themselves to others, just trying to beat their previous PR and they’re generally not doing it to attract women. To an untrained eye they can often times look like a fat dude.
In contrast, a lot of bodybuilders are in the sport because they’re insecure and/or want to attract women. I would say the majority of lads training in the gym are really doing it for these two reasons. This is only made worse when they scan the gym and compare the weight they can lift with that of a power lifter who’s often times no where near as big yet capable of lifting more. As a result, you’re far, far more likely to see bodybuilders getting in scraps than powerlifters and strongmen, half because of the testosterone and half because of the insecurity. Sometimes they’ll find the confidence they’re seeking if they get big enough or start getting women but often times not. A lot of them would be better off doing a a martial art or boxing, probably the former as there’s more of a culture of “you only use this in self defence if you absolutely have to” whereas the majority of local street fighters almost always seem to have a boxing background and something to prove.
Dead Comment
If the medical community had been more open about the negligible risks of moderate doses, we could have had a real conversation about it and gotten people reasonable supplementation. Instead, the medical community stayed lockstep in calling it unhealthy/illegal and people learned about it from youtube and bb.com forums.
EDIT: I just remembered this article:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/24/why-ther...
> But more surprising was the amount of hordenine and ostarine – described by the programme-makers as often being found in gym supplements, which made up more than half of the pharmaceuticals found.
Ostarine is a SARM, and supposedly there was more of that than cocaine or MDMA residue in a London sewer "fatberg."
Unfortunately it looks like a few tik-tok kids are going to ruin it for everyone. Same as most good things in life I guess.
What an unhinged comment
Edit: government data says I am wrong. 25-29, apparently. But that's based on self-reporting so I do wonder.
As it stands, if you've just started bodybuilding and want to get growth hormones, unless you're rich and well-connected enough, a pro or ex-Pro athlete or an A/B-list actor, your best bet is testosterone.
Most PCPs won't prescribe it unless your levels are seriously low, and most endos won't do it either unless you go to one of those weird T clinics like this one: https://testosteroneclinicpro.com/testosterone-treatment-for...
This means going to the black/gray-markets or to forums to:
1. get your supply, which is almost always imported from Eastern Europe or Asia and has variable quality control, and
2. your programming, which is highly dependent on your body (and everyone's body is different!)
Bad programming is what kills/seriously injures people!
Then again, the folks that would rather make this and other hard drugs illegal and horrifically addicting and fatal would probably consider that a feature, not a bug.
Sit on the couch, smoke, eat chocolate. Your mileage may vary.
I did do an unholy amount of exercise from 12-20 (rowing), which may have put a few epigenetic switches in useful locations, as before that I was a spherical child, but honestly, I have no idea how I maintain cardio and strength with frankly small bursts of infrequent activity.
For a lot of people the gym is a relaxing "third place"[1] that they truly are sad to miss for a period of time.
I'm sure some percentage are augmenting, but it is surprising how common it to see people on social media declaring that people with the slightest bit of definition or muscles as steroid users.
[1] Should we call it the "second place" in the era of WFH?
Not at all in my case. In my youth gyms were places for hooligans, _heavy_ steroids abusers, low end criminals, and thus places to avoid. Then spent some years in Germany where gym contracts are famously predatory and abusive, again a place to avoid. Only around 2 years ago had found a civilized place finally. Starting to visit regularly meant to actually overcome some traumas.
But it's also genetic (I know taboo right). That some people can gain much easily and/or maintain muscle easily.
Or maybe you're doing drugs (alcohol), not sleeping right, not enough protein,etc.
Or a combination of these all.
Deleted Comment
That's like not brushing your teeth for a month, it's not the done thing. The Americans I know don't even take a month off work, lol.
(I would be really surprised if this figure is higher than the USA, considering the differences in regulation)