All this time I've been assuming that Apple keeps iMessage as iOS/Mac only as an anticompetitive tactic, but that this would never be admitted in writing and they'd be smart enough to only talk about verbally in unrecorded meetings.
These emails actually make me change my mind on both aspects. First, apparently they were at one point undisciplined enough to talk about risky topics in writing. Second, the reasoning in those emails is actually very reasonable. iMessage was a non-revenue-generating service that cost them money and was funded by sales of Apple devices, so it's being offered as a service to users of Apple products. This isn't unfair behavior on Apple's part.
The reasoning is quite sound, yes, but it doesn't consider the long term implications. No one outside of the USA is using iMessage and they are one regulation away from losing it in the USA too. Also, outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp?
It also demonstrates the harm with these lock-in strategies very well. They are concerned that their product wouldn't be compelling enough for people to buy it.
Wouldn't be better if they owned the messaging platform and provide the full experience for iOS due to the fact that they control the device? Owning the platform would have given them also the ability to get revenue from non-Apple users through things like payments and other services that can be integrated into the app.
In its current situation, it might be the case that Apple has won the battle but might end up losing the war.
> outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp?
We use WhatsApp by default because of the network effects. FB have no power over Apple here because removing it from iPhones would kill the only reason people use it. The switch to (most likely) Telegram would happen overnight.
> Also, outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp?
That is a fantastic point, had never though along those lines. It’d be very interesting to explore if people in, say India, where everyone uses WhatsApp - in that scenario will people drop iPhone, a status symbol, or WhatsApp, a somewhat necessary tool. I don’t think no one knows today and no one wants to find out, risks are too high.
Moreover, in that case it is possible that governments might step in.
> Also, outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp?
In the US, Facebook admitted that they saw billions in revenue shortfalls because of Apple’s new prompt that makes user tracking opt in.
Besides, Facebook has already lost 70% of its value. Right now, Facebook is worth 240 billion. Apple is worth 2.2 trillion. Facebook is not exactly operating from a position of strength to throw away its most affluent customers.
Why should I continue reading rest when you already made insane claim based on nothing. Or have I suddenly been teleported to USA? I primarily use iMessage when I'm sending messages with my phone. I have only one contact that uses Whatsapp.
> ...and they are one regulation away from losing it...
More than likely, but the government is never going to legislate that companies use a technically excellent messaging product. Governments have the strongest incentives to cripple messaging:
1) Government pressure degrades private & secure messaging, because privacy can be used for criminal activity and tax evasion.
2) The US government has the worlds most sophisticated spy network and is constantly looking for ways to get involved in people's communications.
3) The US government has generally identified "misinformation" to be anything the current administration doesn't like. Presently only the right wing is aware of this fact, but I know the left wing can understand the point because they had figured this out under Trump.
Apple's relative market share and strategy is at best a secondary factor, the US government will regulate first and foremost get involved in messaging to cripple the security of the protocols being used.
Btw I never understood the reason for imessage being so popular in the US
I remember in France when it was introduced, most phone plans had free SMS, but data was paid (and expensive), so people around me would disable it on their iphones
> because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp?
Me!
I hate whatsapp ui. And not having desktop app. Tend to use Telegram, and Viber as last resort, to talk with elderly family and with businesses(when ordering something online).
Why is WhatsApp special? iMessages is used a lot outside US.
Why is there a “messenger war”? Like what’s the end game? Why do you want people using your free messages product? Data? But e2e encryption and privacy are primary features… I don’t get it
Every tech company tries to lock in their customers all the time, and then turn over backwards and talk about how they are only doing it because it is in the customers interest.
It was nice to read the candid exchange between top Apple execs. It was honest, and it was understandable.
It's unfortunate that Craig Federighi felt the need to give it some bullshit spin instead of being honest in the interview with Joanna Stern (further down the tweet thread).
I wish companies were just honest in their public marketing.
I know that a lot of decisions from Apple are just about protecting their profits (eg. building pretty sweet virtualisation tech into macOS, but then limiting it to 2 macOS VMs per computer even if your Mac could easily run dozens of them).
It would be nice if they didn't always try to tell some bullshit story how that was better for the person buying their hardware.
Yeah Federighi made it pretty clear. I'm a little surprised Eddie Cue didn't seem to realize how significant giving up imessage exclusivity could be. But I'm guessing in 2013 there were bigger differences in iPhones vs Android phones, wasn't as clear that eventually it would be a significant reason why someone might choose one over the other. Giving up iMessage in 2013 would be different than giving it up today
I remember iTunes and Safari on Windows being less polished 'by design' to nudge users who were able to experience them on Mac to think the hardware/OS was better.
The one defence I can think of is that keeping it tied to apple devices means they can ban spammers more effectively since there is a real cost to getting back on the network.
Phones would be useless if they were not interoperable. It's fine to have a proprietary messaging system but at some point, when it gets large enough, it needs to play nice.
Federighi and Schiller nailed it. With the benefit of hindsight, it’s clear that Google would have bungled a WhatsApp acquisition.
I think it’s refreshing to see that Fed & Phil had in mind a clear path to value with their existing hardware+software strategy, rather than rushing to the growth and market share at-all-costs strategy popular at the time.
It’s so easy to point to Federighi’s email and scream “monopolist”! But Apple was in no way close to commanding a monopoly in the mobile market back then.
The whole thing is a bit mind boggling to me. Everyone I knew that had gmail was also actively using hangouts. How they could screw that up is beyond me. It even had voip integration. All they needed to do was polish the app.
They announced the shutdown of hangouts and the removal of google fi integration and despite the uproar they doubled down on it.
Genuine question to people here. Why ? They keep claiming that they're a data driven company. What data are these decisions based on?
It could have been as simple as (1) acquiring WhatsApp and (2) instructing every other product division at Google to not even think about developing or launching messaging apps from now on. But yes, knowing Google chances are that they would have managed to screw it up.
I saw a humorous exchange at a social event: Someone is texting another person to exchange phone numbers and a green bubble appears. "Is it not working or are you on Android?"
In that moment I understood the genius of not just shipping an iMessage for Android app. Not having an iPhone is perceived as a failure state.
In continental Europe I've seen just the opposite. In many social contexts having an iPhone is associated with either being a mindless fanboy, a basic trend-following drone or, in general, bad with money.
As in "why would anyone overpay for a phone that does just the same as an Android?".
I suspect you might be grossly extrapolating from your own social circles.
I think it’s a really safe assumption that most people don’t really care what others have, or really care that much about a device vs it doing what they need.
I don’t think that’s a US vs Europe thing. I see people in tech circles in America make the same judgements, but don’t realize that it’s irrelevant
The fact that you are getting so many response arguing that "its just your social circle/just one anecdotal data", when the parent pro-iPhone comment is exactly the same anecdotal evidence speaks volume about pro-iPhone bias that plenty of North American users may have.
Some of the arguments are straight up bonkers for me - for instance, "iMessage is more secure." Is it? Apple is a US-based firm and subject to the whims of US laws and governmental intrusion.
In my circle - and I have lived in both Europe and Asia - we heavily use Telegram. I find it to be far more favorable experience than iMessage. UX and interoperatibility between platforms is far more superior and it runs flawlessly - doesn't matter whether it is a flagship Apple/Samsung device or a cheap Xiaomi phone. Or PC/Mac/Linux for that matter.
In my own experience we in Europe don't care much about which phone other people are using. Of course we are defending the reason why we have either an iPhone or more probably an Android but all messages have the same color on WhatsApp and everybody kind of must use it in my country. I knew that there were European countries with a FB Messenger majority (France?) but I don't know if it's still a thing.
Having to use WhatsApp removes a reason to have to buy an iPhone and adds a new one not to care about the brand of the phone.
The US is an absolutely huge win - get the valuable customers and leave the rest for Android. For comparison the 2021 advertising spend in the US was greater than that of the next 10 countries combined.
Not sure how universal its in all of Europe but at least where I live, nobody uses SMS for communication. To the point that government services are unofficially using viber and WhatsApp to communicate with citizens.
Absolutely. As a continental European, I am always discussing with my fellow Europeans such matters; like when Hans bought a new Mercedes-Benz automobile. Silly man, doesn't he know a Dacia does the same thing for less? We all had a hearty chuckle about it.
Where in Europe? Its an entire continent with a huge salary range and many different cultures. Here in Finland, the iPhone is quite popular, and pretty much seen as the default option for non-tech people who don't want to root their phone. The 400 euro model is affordable for most people.
But I wouldn't think that would be the case at all in a poorer country like Poland or Romania.
I think it comes down to social class. Most German, French, and Spanish people I know that travel frequently, make upper-professional incomes, and belong to what you would typically say is "upper middle class" are almost exclusively using iPhones.
I don't want this to sound as fanboy as it does, but iPhone is really market leader in hardware, the Apple Silicon + Battery management just has no serious competitor.
I agree software-wise Android ~= iOS but Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 < Apple A16.
> In many social contexts having an iPhone is associated with either being a mindless fanboy, a basic trend-following drone or, in general, bad with money.
This is a bad take and is more revealing about your social circle.
My assumption (as an iPhone user) is that if you're on Android, you absolutely have a phone that can do the same thing, but it also tells me you're not someone who obsesses about the details. Good enough. If you truly obsess about details, you would recognize that the Apple hardware/software ecosystem is worth every incremental penny.
I was on a date once and I was a few models behind with my iPhone, and my date said, "You work in devops, and you have an iPhone 5?" The disgust was evident in her tone.
That was our first and last date, but I did quickly thereafter buy a new iPhone...
The right phone to bring on a date or any personal human interaction is none at all or turn it off. Cell phones are like toilets. No one wants to watch you using one.
If a date cares which toilet or phone you use... that is weird. Run.
FWIIW I have a 20 year background in software engineering and devops. Today I run an infosec company, live in silicon valley, and I do not have a cell phone at all.
I have a desktop computer for getting work done in office hours, and if I have time alone away from home for an extended period of time I bring a laptop and a book which are used at times of my choosing.
Best not to show your phone on a first date. It is like talking about religion here in San Francisco. Apple verses Google is like Allah verses Yahweh. You may not get laid.
It's pretty much the same in Denmark. It's either a blue bubble or a green bubble. I'm pretty sure it's because of the heavy competition between mobile carriers in the 00's resulting in unlimited free SMS texts, thus having no incentive for using an alternative messaging platform. This meant that once iPhones became popular, every iPhone user's message automatically became an iMessage.
Practically no-one has WhatsApp here, but all my family in the Netherlands use WhatsApp almost exclusively. It's my impression that in the Nordic countries it's iMessage but the rest of Europe uses WhatsApp.
Seems that Norway and Denmark are in a bubble, because it is definitely not like this in Finland where data and tech have been years ahead. As soon as 3g/4g plans and smartphones started becoming more widespread than unlimited SMS/MMS, WhatsApp took over.
I have noticed that my Norwegian friends use Facebook Messenger quite a lot and the iPhone is pretty ubiquitous there with younger folk, so perhaps Denmark is the same.
People for some reason like to harp on the whole green bubble thing when it’s not even the real issue. The lock-in is Facetime — there is zero answer for it on Android. It’s the default in my friend group for calling someone, we hold group hangouts in it.
Getting non-work people into a video call if you don’t have an iPhone is painful.
Video-calling my friends and acquaintances would be seen as totally creepy, it's text all the way. Phone calls in case of a real emergency (and for some work tasks, unfortunately), but otherwise it's text-only.
In case you have lots of information to share you can also leave a recorded voice-message via WhatsApp, but that's all done in a asynchronous way, i.e. the person receiving the recorder voice-message can listen to it whenever he/she feels like it.
Thing is, it just works.
Facetime just works, iMessage just works.
That means that you can let non tech people easily audio/video call, group chats, share photos, albums and what not with good quality.
Android isn't bad, it is just that the ecosystem around iOS is that good.
I was thinking similarly. The tone is incredibly casual considering the implications of the decision on both the company and society at large. There are basic spelling and grammar errors for goodness sake. I'm not criticizing, I just find that intensely interesting.
The rest of the conversation almost certainly happened in person. These emails were just getting out some initial thoughts. Happens all the time. Also, notice that Tim Cook wasn't in the email conversation.
for me it was that one guy calls it "the best messaging app" , then federighi implies that it s not really and they d need a lot of effort to make a marginally better competitor.
Also how they admit that a busy messaging service "does not cost us a lot to run", but HN constantly defends the 30% tax for app store storage space
so yeah like HN, except in HN this would start an epic flamewar "how dare you say that"
I thought most of it was a little surreal to converse about innovating that way, as though innovation was specific. No one here would ever say, "what we have to do as HN members is innovate. Once we do that, we can make our comments better and draw in more users from Slashdot." I thought the whole thing was fake until I got to the end and saw what Internal Tech Emails was. Then I just thought it was all pretty phoney. That isn't how ordinary people converse. I'd almost think they can walk without their feet ever touching the ground.
What are you saying? That we aren't all super different individuals and are actually in fact a very very narrow window of a specific tech culture? Madness.
And this decision gave them the US mobile market (very profitable) but basically lost them the messaging and ancillary commercial services enabled by messaging market in the rest of the world.
Yep. It's interesting how uniform the US messaging mesh is (practically everyone on iMessage). An average American's chance of having Whatsapp installed on their phone is a function of how likely they are to have contacts from abroad.
The actual market share for Apple in US mobile market is around 50%, so even if every single one of those use iMessage exclusively, there are still plenty of people locked out of it. If you don't have any in your social circles, that's probably due to the nature of those circles.
Both are American companies. Whatsapp is Meta (Facebook), and iMessage (actually now Messages) is Apple. If you care about security, the question is which is more likely to comply with the US government's requests for information: Meta or Apple. If you don't, the question is price point, ignoring the question of which is more likely to make your data marketable. That is likely Meta, so we could rephrase this as, "Do you care to pay more for Apple's privacy, or is it okay for Meta to sell your messages to anyone willing to pay?"
Was just talking about this with my wife. We had an extended family group chat come in that was an absolute disaster with each of us getting several messages per response. I believe this is because it contains a mix of android users and we were discussing how Apple forces us to have a worse experience to maintain their exclusivity.
It’s because it falls back to MMS with android users in the group which does have a weird duplication issue. Best bet is to use another platform for group chats (Signal is excellent but WhatsApp may be a path of less resistance)
I, for one, could never understand the appeal of using the messaging app that would work only on devices made my one manufacturer. Imagine your emails could be read only on iPhones and Macs, how far would it take you? Why are messages any different?
Readit News
These emails actually make me change my mind on both aspects. First, apparently they were at one point undisciplined enough to talk about risky topics in writing. Second, the reasoning in those emails is actually very reasonable. iMessage was a non-revenue-generating service that cost them money and was funded by sales of Apple devices, so it's being offered as a service to users of Apple products. This isn't unfair behavior on Apple's part.
It also demonstrates the harm with these lock-in strategies very well. They are concerned that their product wouldn't be compelling enough for people to buy it.
Wouldn't be better if they owned the messaging platform and provide the full experience for iOS due to the fact that they control the device? Owning the platform would have given them also the ability to get revenue from non-Apple users through things like payments and other services that can be integrated into the app.
In its current situation, it might be the case that Apple has won the battle but might end up losing the war.
We use WhatsApp by default because of the network effects. FB have no power over Apple here because removing it from iPhones would kill the only reason people use it. The switch to (most likely) Telegram would happen overnight.
That is a fantastic point, had never though along those lines. It’d be very interesting to explore if people in, say India, where everyone uses WhatsApp - in that scenario will people drop iPhone, a status symbol, or WhatsApp, a somewhat necessary tool. I don’t think no one knows today and no one wants to find out, risks are too high.
Moreover, in that case it is possible that governments might step in.
If a few companies piss-off each other enough, we might start seeing open protocols for communication
Also, having lived in 2 different countries in EU, I have never used WhatsApp. Only iMessage, Signal, and SMS.
In the US, Facebook admitted that they saw billions in revenue shortfalls because of Apple’s new prompt that makes user tracking opt in.
Besides, Facebook has already lost 70% of its value. Right now, Facebook is worth 240 billion. Apple is worth 2.2 trillion. Facebook is not exactly operating from a position of strength to throw away its most affluent customers.
Why should I continue reading rest when you already made insane claim based on nothing. Or have I suddenly been teleported to USA? I primarily use iMessage when I'm sending messages with my phone. I have only one contact that uses Whatsapp.
More than likely, but the government is never going to legislate that companies use a technically excellent messaging product. Governments have the strongest incentives to cripple messaging:
1) Government pressure degrades private & secure messaging, because privacy can be used for criminal activity and tax evasion.
2) The US government has the worlds most sophisticated spy network and is constantly looking for ways to get involved in people's communications.
3) The US government has generally identified "misinformation" to be anything the current administration doesn't like. Presently only the right wing is aware of this fact, but I know the left wing can understand the point because they had figured this out under Trump.
Apple's relative market share and strategy is at best a secondary factor, the US government will regulate first and foremost get involved in messaging to cripple the security of the protocols being used.
Deleted Comment
I remember in France when it was introduced, most phone plans had free SMS, but data was paid (and expensive), so people around me would disable it on their iphones
How come that effect didn't happen in the US?
Me!
I hate whatsapp ui. And not having desktop app. Tend to use Telegram, and Viber as last resort, to talk with elderly family and with businesses(when ordering something online).
Vibr sucks as well, but not as much as WA.
Why is there a “messenger war”? Like what’s the end game? Why do you want people using your free messages product? Data? But e2e encryption and privacy are primary features… I don’t get it
It was nice to read the candid exchange between top Apple execs. It was honest, and it was understandable.
It's unfortunate that Craig Federighi felt the need to give it some bullshit spin instead of being honest in the interview with Joanna Stern (further down the tweet thread).
I wish companies were just honest in their public marketing.
I know that a lot of decisions from Apple are just about protecting their profits (eg. building pretty sweet virtualisation tech into macOS, but then limiting it to 2 macOS VMs per computer even if your Mac could easily run dozens of them).
It would be nice if they didn't always try to tell some bullshit story how that was better for the person buying their hardware.
Cost was a reason, but wanting to maintain platform lock-in was another you seem to dismiss.
The last email makes it clear that they wanted to keep lock-in in apple's ecosystem
Personally I prefer they don't do google style starting 100 projects and killing 99 out of them but focus on what they do best.
I also can't care less about iMessages on Android, I'm using WhatsApp to ping my wife/family - probably like most.
Deleted Comment
Deleted Comment
I think it’s refreshing to see that Fed & Phil had in mind a clear path to value with their existing hardware+software strategy, rather than rushing to the growth and market share at-all-costs strategy popular at the time.
It’s so easy to point to Federighi’s email and scream “monopolist”! But Apple was in no way close to commanding a monopoly in the mobile market back then.
Google Meet
Google Meet (Original)
Google Meet (Acquired)
They announced the shutdown of hangouts and the removal of google fi integration and despite the uproar they doubled down on it.
Genuine question to people here. Why ? They keep claiming that they're a data driven company. What data are these decisions based on?
In that moment I understood the genius of not just shipping an iMessage for Android app. Not having an iPhone is perceived as a failure state.
In continental Europe I've seen just the opposite. In many social contexts having an iPhone is associated with either being a mindless fanboy, a basic trend-following drone or, in general, bad with money.
As in "why would anyone overpay for a phone that does just the same as an Android?".
It's a very curious phenomenon.
I think it’s a really safe assumption that most people don’t really care what others have, or really care that much about a device vs it doing what they need.
I don’t think that’s a US vs Europe thing. I see people in tech circles in America make the same judgements, but don’t realize that it’s irrelevant
Some of the arguments are straight up bonkers for me - for instance, "iMessage is more secure." Is it? Apple is a US-based firm and subject to the whims of US laws and governmental intrusion.
In my circle - and I have lived in both Europe and Asia - we heavily use Telegram. I find it to be far more favorable experience than iMessage. UX and interoperatibility between platforms is far more superior and it runs flawlessly - doesn't matter whether it is a flagship Apple/Samsung device or a cheap Xiaomi phone. Or PC/Mac/Linux for that matter.
Having to use WhatsApp removes a reason to have to buy an iPhone and adds a new one not to care about the brand of the phone.
In recent years I only used SMS for 2FA.
But I wouldn't think that would be the case at all in a poorer country like Poland or Romania.
I agree software-wise Android ~= iOS but Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 < Apple A16.
This is a bad take and is more revealing about your social circle.
Deleted Comment
and yeah they are perceived as "status" lifestyle items. It's why apple emphasizes devices that can be shown off/worn in public
That was our first and last date, but I did quickly thereafter buy a new iPhone...
If a date cares which toilet or phone you use... that is weird. Run.
FWIIW I have a 20 year background in software engineering and devops. Today I run an infosec company, live in silicon valley, and I do not have a cell phone at all.
I have a desktop computer for getting work done in office hours, and if I have time alone away from home for an extended period of time I bring a laptop and a book which are used at times of my choosing.
Practically no-one has WhatsApp here, but all my family in the Netherlands use WhatsApp almost exclusively. It's my impression that in the Nordic countries it's iMessage but the rest of Europe uses WhatsApp.
I'd like to see statistics though if you can find them.
I have noticed that my Norwegian friends use Facebook Messenger quite a lot and the iPhone is pretty ubiquitous there with younger folk, so perhaps Denmark is the same.
Getting non-work people into a video call if you don’t have an iPhone is painful.
Facebook Messenger and WhatsApp both have video calling...
In case you have lots of information to share you can also leave a recorded voice-message via WhatsApp, but that's all done in a asynchronous way, i.e. the person receiving the recorder voice-message can listen to it whenever he/she feels like it.
Android isn't bad, it is just that the ecosystem around iOS is that good.
Take from that what you will.
Also how they admit that a busy messaging service "does not cost us a lot to run", but HN constantly defends the 30% tax for app store storage space
so yeah like HN, except in HN this would start an epic flamewar "how dare you say that"
Over time that changed.
Now, it's basically a US thing. In other countries messaging apps are used by the majority.
Pretty damning for anyone who still thinks that Apple didn't intend to directly profit from teen bullying.