One additional bit of context on this. This is from Paul Pedriana’s blog. Paul passed unexpectedly last year. Among his many achievements, he was one of the key engineers behind the Sim City games and Oculus.
Here in the UK most new screws are Pozidriv, but many people confuse them with Philips as they are very similar. Mixing up Pozidriv/Philips results in the driver riding out and damaging the head. It should be required teaching in schools the difference between the two!
Pozidriv screws have a small engraved cross at 45 deg to the main recess. The drivers have a small matching flute in the grooves.
PZ are useless as a standard because it's not significantly different enough from others, and you can't tell which PZ you need.
Torx and hex is brilliant because you can easily say which shape of bit you need, and you'll instantly know if you pick the wrong one.
Luckily Torx seems to have finally won and screws that require any kind of moment (construction/decking/fasteners/) now seem to use them in stores, while only the kind of scre you'd hang up a picture frame with is PH/PZ.
I have never seen a square (Robertson?) screw in the wild, I assume that's regional.
Canadian here. I have been using Robertsons for forty years. It's all you can get at the hardware store: #10/black-handle screwdriver, #8/red, #6/green and #4/yellow. They are a joy to work with. They're so good nobody will buy the old straight slot or Philips.
Slide a screw onto the screwdriver. Hold it horizontally. Holds fast. Can you do that with Torx?
> Torx and hex is brilliant because you can easily say which shape of bit you need, and you'll instantly know if you pick the wrong one.
In my experience, a problem with Torx is that it is a common mistake to use a bit one size smaller than what it should be. It will still engage just fine, but if you apply too much force, you'll destroy the bit, or head, or both. I find it a lot harder to notice when I pick the wrong size Torx bit, compared to a Philips or Pozidriv.
I have made this mistake a lot when using Torx. I have learned myself to always test a bit one size larger than what I think I need, just to be sure.
"I have never seen a square (Robertson?) screw in the wild, I assume that's regional."
The way I heard it was that Mr. Robertson gave his new screws to Henry Ford for testing. Ford wanted to use them but Robertson insisted on a royalty per screw. Ford would not agree to that so the deal failed. This is probably the reason they are a regional rather than an international screw. The entire electrical hardware industry uses square heads in Canada.
(Source: Probably CBC radio many decades ago (?) )
Most of the cement board screws I've used (for installing shower tile) are square head; I've not done much shower work so I don't know if that's a trend or just what the store has at the time.
My fleetwood mobile home built in the late 90s was assembled entirely with square head screws, hex head lag bolts, glue, and a lot of staples.
> I have never seen a square (Robertson?) screw in the wild, I assume that's regional.
Almost exclusively Canadian I believe.
You can get them though, I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig in the UK which came with some for some reason, and had no problem getting bits for them (Amazon I think).
I see Robertson on Decks/Decking mostly --they are stainless or rust resistant so their necks/shanks don't weaken over time. Others rust and when you try to take them out they shear off easily.
"I have never seen a square (Robertson?) screw in the wild, I assume that's regional."
Simpson makes very large diameter, 4" stainless steel screws that I rather like:
#12 x 4", model number is S12400DBB
... those are 306 stainless but if you want 316 you would get T12400DBB.
IF we use screw fasteners in framing, we typically use GRK 3-1/8"-#10 but once in a while we just want something beefier and those simpson 4"-#12 are fantastic ...
Something that took me an embarrassing long time to realize was that North American electrical outlet binding terminals are a combination slotted/Robertson screw head. The Robertson is great.
Klein tools makes combination head tools that engage both, which is fantastic if you are upgrading a bunch of outlets.
Pozidriv exists almost entirely because the old patent expired. It is not sufficiently better than Philips that the overall fastener situation is improved by its existence.
Imo that's the main failure of the posix, it _looks_ like a Phillips, and behaves like one of you use a Phillips bit. Which is rather unfortunate and not really it's fault, but hard to overlook for "normal" usage.
I've just been doing some repairs on an old deck and all the hardware is square. I don't think I've ever seen a square screw/bolt before moving to North America...
With most of my deck screws I just can't get them and have to force the board off or try to pull them out like nails. Between dirt, rust, corrision and some s(l)ight inaccuracies between the driver and the screw I can't seem to get a grab without rounding the square. As the article mentions you have to keep pushing the driver in which isn't always easy depending on what sort of access you have. The other problem is there's so many different sizes and there doesn't seem to be a clear way to figure out the right bit given their slight variations and the condition of old screws.
Would be interesting to try and quantify these differences with tests. I still prefer Allen screws, especially if you can get enough depth. The difference between the sizes is pretty clear (if you can tell if it's metric or not...) and they seem to grab pretty solidly. Don't have that much experience with Torx but when working on my BMW motorcycle that had a lot of Torx bolts they seemed to work fairly well, too many different styles/sizes for my liking though so harder to find the correct bit...
If you're not already, use an impact driver. It's much much easier to prevent cam out compared to a regular drill. I think they also make the job less taxing because you can get away with applying a lot less pressure.
Having recently replaced the hinges for a 1940s house, I think this might be the way.
I got the flat head screws out by cleaning the groove, putting a screw driver in, then smacking it with a hammer, hard. Then I unscrewed. It took a lot of time, and about 1/3rd the screws snapped in half (which was fairly helpful, as it got the hinge off).
I had a similar problem replacing some deck boards. Mine where Philips heads.
I was able to get some out with a manual impact driver and later some out with an electric impact driver. I had quite a few though that this didn't work on.
What I ended up doing, which only works if you don't need to avoid damaging the board, was use a wood chisel to clear remove the wood around the screw head. I then gripped the exposed head tightly with locking pliers roughly perpendicular to the axis of the screw. It was then fairly easy to turn the screws.
A small number of the heads broke off, but the locking pliers had no trouble turning those by the shaft instead.
I used Milwaukee locking pliers [1]. Unlike most locking pliers where the locking knob is designed to only be turned directly by hand, the Milwaukee locking knob has a hole through it meant to allow you to stick a metal rod such as a screwdriver through it and use that to get a lot more torque for turning the knob than you can get by hand [2]. You can get an insanely tight lock this way.
I only had one screw that this failed with. That one broke off low enough to leave nothing exposed above the bottom board. For that one I just left it in and made sure to place the replacement screw slightly to the side so it would go into wood instead of hitting the old screw.
> Unlike most locking pliers where the locking knob is designed to only be turned directly by hand, the Milwaukee locking knob has a hole through it meant to allow you to stick a metal rod such as a screwdriver through it and use that to get a lot more torque for turning the knob than you can get by hand [2]. You can get an insanely tight lock this way.
Why not open the pliers, tighten the knob, then close the pliers again? You have lots of leverage in closing the pliers; do you need even more than that?
If you’re really struggling, you can get a screw remover bit - typically just a little tapered hardened metal bit that has a counterclockwise cutting thread. Dead easy for getting out headless wonders.
This, definitely. If you don't have one with you, you can also hammer a slightly larger torx bit into the rounded square and unscrew. This may damage the bit, though.
> I've just been doing some repairs on an old deck and all the hardware is square. I don't think I've ever seen a square screw/bolt before moving to North America...
This sounds like Robertson, which is uniquely Canadian. Are you in Canada by any chance?
I love these kind of real world tests of technologies applied in the field. A great YouTube channel along a similar vein is Project Farm, https://www.youtube.com/c/ProjectFarm
While he doesn't go into the science and physics directly, he often shows the precise outcomes and results of controlled tests to compare brands against one another. It's always fun when he reads a manufacturer's claim and makes it abundantly clear "we're going to test that."
I recall that this project farm channel also did a test of various pickup truck bed liner products you can apply yourself, if you have something you really want to protect. The results were quite different between them.
I have seen some people cover the entire body panels of dedicated purpose off road 4x4 with bed liner or a similar product as a protective layer.
they test all sorts of useful things like sds plus hammer drill bits and similar.
The most important advantage of Robertson, and the reason why people in construction love them, is that you can put them on your screwdriver/drill/driver and they won't fall off - no matter the orientation you hold it. It's a productivity game changer.
The tapered fit is the reason, and the article outright dismisses this and claims it "increases cam-out". Even with a worn bit, pushing a screw onto the bit means you can grab hold of the screw and swing the drill around. In practice, (especially with impact drivers), the bit seats myself in the screw so thoroughly that you will break the head off the screw before it strips.
This is exactly the reason I love Robertson. You can install screws one-handed or in hard-to-access areas very quickly because the taper locks the screw to the driver. Torx and hex drives don't have this important feature.
Not to mention that there are technically six Robertson head sizes, but 90+% of screws are #2 and basically nothing uses any sizes other than #1 and very occasionally #3.
I get tired of needing a bit box with 10 different torx sizes so I can find the right one.
No "science" here, all anecdote built from boats, skis, and a moderate amount general use:
Flat head: the bigger the better in this format, and simplicity has it's place, but easy to destroy in a variety of situations. Also, when you're out of options cutting a flathead slot into a destroyed screw might just work. The classic 6.5/10
Phillips: everywhere, but rather bad. You get a finite but unknown number of interactions with Phillips heads before it suddenly strips out and you're sad. This includes both the screws and the bits, Philips bits are the only ones I've ever had that shatter, the rest fairly predictably deform and can be retired.
Square (Robertson): bettr than the above. However, they're also like hex (Allen) but less good.
Hex (Allen): one of my favorites, and they scale rather well. BUT, if you strip it at all, maybe even once, you're done, the angles are shallow enough that there's no coming back, you've cut out a circle.
Posix: like Phillips if you squint, but if you actually use the right bit and, most importantly, push down harder than seems reasonable times 2, you'll pretty much never have a problem.
Torx: not lots of experience, and there's the rub. At the moment they're a hard bit for a layperson to find, regardless of their advantages
Here in Norway Torx is everywhere, almost all new screws and bits. It is like Torx is USB 3.0 and everything else is "legacy".
Torx just works. Never an issue (except smallest bit size TX10 can wear out quickly). I guess disadvantage is you need to have them in 4-5 sizes depending on screw size, like Hex, but that is easily worth it.
The smallest Torx size is a T1 (or TX1, whatever)! This size is best described as "pray that you never have to use it". I think I did... once... or maybe that was just staring at the driver wondering what it's for. Still, we have 16 different Torx sizes around here. Sixteen!
Also, there's a thing called Torx Plus out there. You can buy Torx Plus screws and things will work out for you, but don't buy Torx Plus bits unless you know what you're doing. That said, if you do use Torx Plus bits with Torx Plus screws, it works really well.
From an automotive point-of-view TORX like Allen / "inhex" suffers because you can get a bunch of crap in the head and make it easier to get a bad fit with your driver and damage the fastener head. External/female TORX is also problematic because, you guessed it, you can get all sorts of gunk in the splines.
They all wear out eventually, if you use them - but much more slowly than Philips or posidrive. Even a chewed up torx bit will still usually do the job - but a chewed up cross is useless.
Fair! I'm speaking from a US perspective here for torx availability, and largely interacting with things I didn't get to decide the hardware on myself.
"Torx: not lots of experience, and there's the rub. At the moment they're a hard bit for a layperson to find, regardless of their advantage ..."
In the US Torx is everywhere.
In fact, when I consider doing any kind of construction project or building outside of the US (in Europe, for instance) one of the major downsides would have to be my near total reliance on GRK screws and Simpson fasteners.
I would not want to have to build things without easy access to products from those two firms.
Where do you live that Torx are hard to find? They are nothing short of a standard on automotive applications, and any "mechanics" screwdriver, like the very popular Megapro in North America will carry Torx bits - but any big box store selection will include them.
A major problem with pretty much all types of screws is identification. Slotted and Phillips screws almost never seem to have the right depth or width for the drivers you have on hand. Torx and hex screws have a metric (and imperial) bleep-ton of different driver sizes. Plus, there's security hex screws and weird abominations like Apple's pentalobe garbage to confuse matters even more. Robertson screws come in just 6 color coded driver sizes, only a couple of which are common. However, the U.S. has shitty non-tapered square-drive screws and drivers that mess even the noble Robertson up.
At this point, I'm happy to let Robertson and torx screws co-exist. Just phase out, obsolete, or otherwise fire into the sun all the truly shitty screws out there to help reduce the number of drivers you need to have banging about in a respectable driver drawer. Seriously, there's just too damned many different things out there. Any company (e.g. Apple) that feels the need to make their own new screw just for the heck of it can go sit naked on a soft-boiled egg and spin.
At least the Torx driver sizes are the same for metric and imperial (unlike hex heads where you need a separate set if you need to do anything with imperial screws/bolts). I find three good drivers are enough for 95% of what you need for electronics, and then a cheap interchangeable head set gets you the rest of what you normally need.
In my experience Robertson is much better for anything that is a large head size and will be treated roughly, like a self tapping wood screw being driven by a power driver.
Torx is more suited for precision electronics stuff. Or assembling machinery.
Yeah, we do exactly that, using the square ones (I expect they are Robinson) for the self tapping screws on the wooden crates we ship our satellite terminals and high speed radios in that we make. Everything inside the crate is Torx screws and Hex drive bolts.
Switching from Phillips screws has solved a lot of problems we used to have in maintaining the products, especially in marine applications.
A stroll down the screw aisle at my local hardware store says otherwise. Most heavy duty, high quality construction screws in USA stores like Lowes or Home Depot offer deck, wood and carpentry screws in Torx format. The GRK brand in particular makes the most bulletproof screws I’ve ever found, and I’ve used them for framing, cabinetry, decking and almost anything imaginable.
By contrast I almost never see machine or metal fastening screws in Torx format, almost always these are Philips or Hex.
You may be in the US, not Canada? The stick built wood house construction industry and others in Canada have used robertson wood screws with much greater popularity for 40+ years vs. the USA.
Readit News
Pozidriv screws have a small engraved cross at 45 deg to the main recess. The drivers have a small matching flute in the grooves.
Nice picture here: https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2015/09/16/what-is-the-diff...
Luckily Torx seems to have finally won and screws that require any kind of moment (construction/decking/fasteners/) now seem to use them in stores, while only the kind of scre you'd hang up a picture frame with is PH/PZ.
I have never seen a square (Robertson?) screw in the wild, I assume that's regional.
Slide a screw onto the screwdriver. Hold it horizontally. Holds fast. Can you do that with Torx?
In my experience, a problem with Torx is that it is a common mistake to use a bit one size smaller than what it should be. It will still engage just fine, but if you apply too much force, you'll destroy the bit, or head, or both. I find it a lot harder to notice when I pick the wrong size Torx bit, compared to a Philips or Pozidriv.
I have made this mistake a lot when using Torx. I have learned myself to always test a bit one size larger than what I think I need, just to be sure.
The way I heard it was that Mr. Robertson gave his new screws to Henry Ford for testing. Ford wanted to use them but Robertson insisted on a royalty per screw. Ford would not agree to that so the deal failed. This is probably the reason they are a regional rather than an international screw. The entire electrical hardware industry uses square heads in Canada.
(Source: Probably CBC radio many decades ago (?) )
My fleetwood mobile home built in the late 90s was assembled entirely with square head screws, hex head lag bolts, glue, and a lot of staples.
Almost exclusively Canadian I believe.
You can get them though, I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig in the UK which came with some for some reason, and had no problem getting bits for them (Amazon I think).
I'd never seen them (IRL) before that either.
Reasonably common here in Australia. Our decking screws are either Torx or Square Drive.
Simpson makes very large diameter, 4" stainless steel screws that I rather like:
#12 x 4", model number is S12400DBB
... those are 306 stainless but if you want 316 you would get T12400DBB.
IF we use screw fasteners in framing, we typically use GRK 3-1/8"-#10 but once in a while we just want something beefier and those simpson 4"-#12 are fantastic ...
... and they are square drive.
Klein tools makes combination head tools that engage both, which is fantastic if you are upgrading a bunch of outlets.
I'm glad I know pozidrive now.
A feature is that pozi is compatible with Phillips bits, just without its advantages.
For people with older or smaller toolkits, that's actually quite helpful.
With most of my deck screws I just can't get them and have to force the board off or try to pull them out like nails. Between dirt, rust, corrision and some s(l)ight inaccuracies between the driver and the screw I can't seem to get a grab without rounding the square. As the article mentions you have to keep pushing the driver in which isn't always easy depending on what sort of access you have. The other problem is there's so many different sizes and there doesn't seem to be a clear way to figure out the right bit given their slight variations and the condition of old screws.
Would be interesting to try and quantify these differences with tests. I still prefer Allen screws, especially if you can get enough depth. The difference between the sizes is pretty clear (if you can tell if it's metric or not...) and they seem to grab pretty solidly. Don't have that much experience with Torx but when working on my BMW motorcycle that had a lot of Torx bolts they seemed to work fairly well, too many different styles/sizes for my liking though so harder to find the correct bit...
I was able to get some out with a manual impact driver and later some out with an electric impact driver. I had quite a few though that this didn't work on.
What I ended up doing, which only works if you don't need to avoid damaging the board, was use a wood chisel to clear remove the wood around the screw head. I then gripped the exposed head tightly with locking pliers roughly perpendicular to the axis of the screw. It was then fairly easy to turn the screws.
A small number of the heads broke off, but the locking pliers had no trouble turning those by the shaft instead.
I used Milwaukee locking pliers [1]. Unlike most locking pliers where the locking knob is designed to only be turned directly by hand, the Milwaukee locking knob has a hole through it meant to allow you to stick a metal rod such as a screwdriver through it and use that to get a lot more torque for turning the knob than you can get by hand [2]. You can get an insanely tight lock this way.
I only had one screw that this failed with. That one broke off low enough to leave nothing exposed above the bottom board. For that one I just left it in and made sure to place the replacement screw slightly to the side so it would go into wood instead of hitting the old screw.
[1] https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Hand-Tools/Pliers/Loc...
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4piwT_Z12uw
Why not open the pliers, tighten the knob, then close the pliers again? You have lots of leverage in closing the pliers; do you need even more than that?
This sounds like Robertson, which is uniquely Canadian. Are you in Canada by any chance?
While he doesn't go into the science and physics directly, he often shows the precise outcomes and results of controlled tests to compare brands against one another. It's always fun when he reads a manufacturer's claim and makes it abundantly clear "we're going to test that."
I have seen some people cover the entire body panels of dedicated purpose off road 4x4 with bed liner or a similar product as a protective layer.
they test all sorts of useful things like sds plus hammer drill bits and similar.
I get tired of needing a bit box with 10 different torx sizes so I can find the right one.
Flat head: the bigger the better in this format, and simplicity has it's place, but easy to destroy in a variety of situations. Also, when you're out of options cutting a flathead slot into a destroyed screw might just work. The classic 6.5/10
Phillips: everywhere, but rather bad. You get a finite but unknown number of interactions with Phillips heads before it suddenly strips out and you're sad. This includes both the screws and the bits, Philips bits are the only ones I've ever had that shatter, the rest fairly predictably deform and can be retired.
Square (Robertson): bettr than the above. However, they're also like hex (Allen) but less good.
Hex (Allen): one of my favorites, and they scale rather well. BUT, if you strip it at all, maybe even once, you're done, the angles are shallow enough that there's no coming back, you've cut out a circle.
Posix: like Phillips if you squint, but if you actually use the right bit and, most importantly, push down harder than seems reasonable times 2, you'll pretty much never have a problem.
Torx: not lots of experience, and there's the rub. At the moment they're a hard bit for a layperson to find, regardless of their advantages
Torx just works. Never an issue (except smallest bit size TX10 can wear out quickly). I guess disadvantage is you need to have them in 4-5 sizes depending on screw size, like Hex, but that is easily worth it.
The smallest Torx size is a T1 (or TX1, whatever)! This size is best described as "pray that you never have to use it". I think I did... once... or maybe that was just staring at the driver wondering what it's for. Still, we have 16 different Torx sizes around here. Sixteen!
Also, there's a thing called Torx Plus out there. You can buy Torx Plus screws and things will work out for you, but don't buy Torx Plus bits unless you know what you're doing. That said, if you do use Torx Plus bits with Torx Plus screws, it works really well.
In the US Torx is everywhere.
In fact, when I consider doing any kind of construction project or building outside of the US (in Europe, for instance) one of the major downsides would have to be my near total reliance on GRK screws and Simpson fasteners.
I would not want to have to build things without easy access to products from those two firms.
[0]: https://www.spax.com/en/products/screwfinder/
Is there a good online US source for GRK screws? e.g. GRK RSS14212HP from a random seller is about 2X normal price, https://www.amazon.com/GRK-RSS14212HP-HandyPak-Structural-Pa...
SPAX sells direct via Amazon, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DSSLP8M/
At this point, I'm happy to let Robertson and torx screws co-exist. Just phase out, obsolete, or otherwise fire into the sun all the truly shitty screws out there to help reduce the number of drivers you need to have banging about in a respectable driver drawer. Seriously, there's just too damned many different things out there. Any company (e.g. Apple) that feels the need to make their own new screw just for the heck of it can go sit naked on a soft-boiled egg and spin.
Torx is more suited for precision electronics stuff. Or assembling machinery.
Switching from Phillips screws has solved a lot of problems we used to have in maintaining the products, especially in marine applications.
By contrast I almost never see machine or metal fastening screws in Torx format, almost always these are Philips or Hex.