This is why we need alternatives to Google and Apple phones/OS, here is a list I have written over the years althought it may not be entirely up to date or completely accurate:
* Phone hardware alternatives to mainstream brands
* PostmarketOS - "postmarketOS extends Alpine Linux to run on smartphones and other mobile devices. [See compatible devices: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices]
* Mobian
* Manjaro ARM
* Maemo Leste
* Pure OS [US] (purism)
* Sailfish OS [FI]
* Others - mostly android-based alternatives
* Ubuntu Touch "Ubuntu Touch is not based on the "mainline" Linux kernel, but rather on the "downstream" (that is, highly patched) Android kernel that came with it originally, with an abstraction layer, halium, to adapt Android drivers and userspace to Linux systems. "
* /e/ foundation [FR]
* Lineage OS
* GrapheneOS
* LuneOS
* Nemo Mobile
* CalyxOS
IMO, what we need, is regulatory obligation to separate SW/OS and HW.
HW-makers, just want to sell HW. They don't care about the SW, and will just do whatever they can to sell the HW. We need to force HW makers to open SW. It can even be beneficial for them by reducing their development costs.
And then, we can have SW-makers competing on long-term support, and features, and openness, etc.
Does such a scheme ring any bell? Yes, there are actually already such small niche products! Ever heard of Windows? RedHat? SuSE? That's exactly what they are doing! We just need such schemes on smartphones.
How would a separation work? I can't say I have a full solution, but here are some ideas:
- Remove the arbitrary limitations for backups. Both Android and iOS backups are severely lacking when it comes to user backuping their device to their own services. Why is this important? Because IMO the biggest user lockdown is not being able to transfer data
- Impose some standards. I don't like UEFI, it feels clunky, and old, but it's standardized, it's pretty clear what are the responsibilities in it.
- Make "bootloader unlock" more standard. I think that ideally, it would be HW switch or button, which is hidden, that is documented in user guide. Like chromebook's unlock screw. Actually, it shouldn't be so much an "unlock", but rather a "change root signing keys", but anyway.
There are some limitations for sure, and currently, the best way to get longer support on as many devices as possible is through Project Treble, so it requires to have Android as a basis provided by the OEM. It doesn't feel right to me. I dream of being able to impose Linux mainline support, but uh, no, I don't see it happening anytime soon.
Also, even though I would want to force Apple to unlock their bootloader, they are not doing anything wrong wrt long term support, so forcing this down to them on the ground of right to repair, doesn't feel ok.
> It can even be beneficial for them by reducing their development costs.
There's no world where phone makers stop customizing the software they ship, even if forced to allow users to install competing OSes. It affords some product differentiation and helps tie users to the platform. Even if you let me install an open OS on my iPhone tomorrow, I couldn't possibly do it because all of my digital life is tied up in Apple's ecosystem (including the human capital of learning to use the platform well).
Pinephone is China or Hong Kong based. It comes with one month warranty (within EU, warranty must be 2 years).
Maemo Leste is not based on Android, neither is Sailfish OS. These are Linux OSes, but the Android emulation layer (which SFOS has but costs money for license) might be Android-based, I don't know. Maemo Leste contains no Android emulation, it actually predecesses Android. Nokia was into Linux-based mobile devices back in the mid 2000's.
You could also add devices like Planet Astro Slide to the list as it comes with a hardware keyboard (if its like the Cosmo one then I can say: the one Pinephone has, isn't quite as good, but is also relatively cheap). I posted about recent smartphones with hardware keyboards here [2].
Iodé might also be interesting, I don't know anything about it other than its a LineageOS + microG adaptation, like /e/
Their software quality for the latest and greatest updates leave much to be desired, but they take care of their existing devices better than anyone else on the market.
For a phone. Android has set the bar incredibly low. Kobo has supported their $130 Kobo Touch eReader from 2011 longer than any iOS device. On PCs its trivial to run modern software even on ancient hardware like a Pentium 4 with Linux/BSDs. Even Windows can let you easily get 15 years out of a device.
Does it have voice recognition for commands? That really is the issue I think Open Source has: they don't have the resources for comprehensive competitive voice recognition interfaces in phone OSes.
I don't disagree but GrapheneOS for instance only supports handsets for as long as Google does. I think some of the other distributions also follow this rule.
Is this surprising to anyone? My present phone is a Motorola G5 Plus, low-mid range model released in early 2017 which I bought new at the time unlocked for under $200 USD. Motorola stopped updating it with Android 8.1, but it runs the latest version of LineageOS based on Android 11 just fine.
One of my tablets is an Amazon device which stopped getting updates to Amazon's proprietary Android 5-based OS. But it runs Android 10-derived LineageOS just fine. A relative was just going to throw it out because the software was out of date. The amount of e-waste produced due to this practice must be scandalous.
Purely in terms of specs and performance, most devices since about 2017 can run the latest software. Manufacturers rarely support the device for more than a year or two, though. This pattern of behaviour goes all the way back to the very first Android device. The HTC Dream was dropped after Android 1.6 but it can run later versions.
I believe that "right to repair" for Android means that we should compel OEMs to unlock bootloaders of any devices that have exited support.
As Google faces antitrust action in many jurisdictions, I hope one of them grants us full control over the devices that we have purchased, especially when they are abandoned or otherwise the victims of neglect.
The bootloaders of the devices that Google sells in its own store are already unlocked. The only exception are Google phones that are bought from some mobile carriers such as Verizon.
Frankly - I think it needs to be broader in scope than just devices that have exited support.
This sort of lockdown is equivalent to selling someone a car, but not providing them the keys - Oh, you wanted to start your car? Just call us and we'll do it for you.
It would be utterly unacceptable to call that ownership for most other physical items, and we shouldn't allow companies to sell hardware with digital locks if the owner isn't provided a key.
I don't mind the lock (just like I want my car to have a lock) but I damn sure better have a key.
I have the same phone and I just use the stock OS and it works pretty well. I've swapped out the launcher, removed a ton of apps with adb (including almost all the Google ones), made the animations go at 2x speed and I'm pretty happy with how it's working. What did you upgrade for and does the Lineage build you're on have the Moto features from the stock ROM? (FM radio, gesture navigation with the fingerprint sensor, chop for flashlight, etc.)
No particular reason, I just prefer to run the same OS on each of my devices. The FM radio, cameras, accelerometers, GPS/GLONASS, etc. works, never tried the fingerprint sensor or gestures.
This behaviour goes back since mobile phones exist, back in the Series 30 days, there was the possibility to update the firmaware using the developer SDK (if at all) and even then there would be one update, tops.
My Pixel 3a is going to stop receiving security updates this May. It’s still a perfectly good phone despite the increasing slowdowns with every system or Play Service update.
I’ve learned my lesson and switched to iPhone as my next main phone, and relegated the Pixel to serve as a backup.
I am contemplating a switch to /e/os from the original developer of Mandrake Linux. I'm going to try it out on a OnePlus 3 at some point in the future.
MicroG is included with /e/os and Lineage remains hostile to it.
If the kings walled gardens Apple would say that "we will keep this next iPhone secure and working snappily for basic tasks, web/email/utility apps, for a decade with a possibility to replace batteries" I would actually consider taking a stroll in that greenhouse. Until then, no thanks.
Ten years is a really long time in tech. And you can pay Apple to replace the battery for you.
"we will keep this next iPhone secure and working snappily for basic tasks, web/email/utility apps" --- No Android phone maker can even make this guarantee for more than 2 years.
They do give you around 6 (and that's with full feature updates and for much more than just basic tasks), which is much better than most Android manufacturers. Although Google has promised 5 years for the Pixel 6. You can't easily replace the battery yourself, but it's not expensive to get a shop to do it.
The latest iOS still supports iPhone 6S (2015), and a battery replacement from Apple costs between $40-80 if I remember correctly. Do you have any android device in mind (from 2015) that is still supported and sees regular updates?
I used the title ("Google could have updated the Pixel 3 until Android 13, it just didn't want to") from the source article, but it really applies to all Android phone manufacturers. The key point in the article is this:
> Qualcomm has confirmed to me that it is still able to deliver Qualcomm-specific software updates for the Snapdragon 845, and while kernel-level support will be an issue for the chipset beginning with Android 13, things right now under Android 12 are just fine.
Snapdragon 845 is what powers most high end Android phones from 2018, and I don't know of any manufacturer that still delivers updates to those phones even though they're still perfectly usable. It is often reported that updates beyond a couple of years isn't possible because of Qualcomm, but they don't seem to be the issue in this case.
I don't know anything about phone vendor relationships with Qualcomm, but "able to deliver" does not necessarily mean "able to charge a reasonable price." If "able to deliver" means "has competent engineers familiar with the product, and are willing to put those engineers on the project in exchange for full costs plus profits" rather than "can e-mail you an up-to-date repository", it can be prohibitive.
Especially with as few as ten million Pixel 3s sold [1], and a half-life of less than two years for cell phone usage, it's going to be hard to justify even a single engineer-year so late in the game for such a small audience.
The half-life of less than two years is a chicken and egg problem. People buy new phones because their old ones doesn't get updates, and phone manufacturers doesn't update old phones because too few people use them.
I don't understand how it could take a full time engineer one year to produce a software update for an already fully functional phone. Even if that was the case, $500k/year for ten million devices is 5 cents per phone. If companies can't be bothered to spend 5 cents to keep a fully functional phone from becoming e-waste for another year I think regulation is in order.
For reference four of Google's execs recently got huge bonuses ($2M) for contributions to "Google’s performance against social and environmental goals for 2022."
I don't think those software updates would come free. I think Qualcomm deserves half the blame here because they produce such horribly locked down products.
Wasn't Treble supposed to decouple Android version updates from hardware drivers? It seems as if Google (and other manufacturers, but it's Google's OS) just like to point fingers and blame others to save some money.
I flashed my Pixel 3 to the CalyxOS [0] with Android 12 on Friday. It has been at least 6 years since I have put a custom OS on an Android phone... I was shocked at how smooth the process was using the provided installer. Took less than 30 minutes. This particular phone, I use solely for Android dev. Based on my initial experience with CalyxOS, I could definitely see myself switching to it for my daily driver.
Same boat. I just flashed GrapheneOS onto my Pixel 3a over the weekend, and the process was stunning compared to the days of CyanogenMod on my Nexus One. Notably, Graphene offers a WebUSB-based installer (https://grapheneos.org/install/web), so I was able to completely flash my phone from a browser without ever opening a terminal. Equally amazing and terrifying.
(Apparently there's some bad blood between Calyx and Graphene, which is a shame. Both seem solid.)
I guess the main issue here is the lack of Google Play Services, which may mean that you can’t reliably implement certain features or reproduce conditions that your end users will face. Perhaps it doesn’t matter for a dev-only phone, but if the device doubles up as a test device, this may be where a non-Google ROM falls down. I’d be wary of using CalyxOS as a base for a dev phone, for this reason.
I tend to work on apps that do not rely heavily on Google Play Services. BUT I should also add that this CalyxOS phone and an /e/ foundation phone I have, are 2 of about 10 Android phones of varying manufacturers and SDK levels which I am constantly rotating thru while developing. I like to make sure I am testing my stuff on a broad array of Android devices, including non-google ones. I certainly wouldn't recommend that anyone use a non-google Android phone for _all_ dev purposes when targeting mainline Google Android phones.
I should also note that MicroG[0] attempts to solve this problem, with admittedly mixed results, but I have positive feelings about its future.
I have a Pixel 3a XL I am seriously considering installing a custom ROM. One question though, how is the camera app? Is it as performant as the one preinstalled?
Wasn't the whole point of Project Treble to abstract the OS from the low level using a HAL so that most of Android could be updated even if the low-level was stuck?
Yeah... Maybe that's why another person in this thread had such an easy time flashing a 3rd party OS using the WebUSB installer and not even opening the terminal.
+1 points for Google for cool stuff like Project Treble (gotta keep techies on board)
-99 points for Google for abandoning Flagship devices for 99% of users that techies might have sold to family and friends.
If it's so easy, then I don't understand why they don't just have a high level OS version that they can make available across all of their devices? How much overhead can there really be?
What does Google do with that? They actually use that, to deprecate devices FASTER than ever.
How? Well, now that the HALs are perfectly formalized, they can say "Okay, a device launched with Android 8, used audio HAL 2.0, while Android 9-launched devices use audio HAL 3.0. We support Android for 3 upgrades, so for Android 12, we can REMOVE the whole code supporting Audio HAL 2.0". While before that, Google couldn't really know what code to remove or not, because they couldn't really know what was used.
So yes, Project Treble, in current Google's implementation, Project Treble turns out to obsolete things even faster than before, and in Google's new Treblish certification plans, I see no place for Fairphones or nVidia Shield with real long-term support.
So, overall, IMO, Project Treble net result is pretty close to 0 (it does have some positive aspects, not just the negatives I just said).
My hope is that some company would appear to lack this gap. Because thanks to Treble, it is actually possible to make reasonable long-term support, by making the code that Google removed to bring back support.
I go with 200 - 250 Euro phones. The oldest surviving one is from 2016, stuck at Android 8. I use it as backup and as GPS tracker / navigator on my bicycle because it's small. The recent one is from 2019, Android 11 and still getting security updates. I don't know for how long it's going to go, but 70 Euros per year / 6 per month (going down) is OK. Of course I'd prefer to see it going on forever. My laptop is from 2014 and sooner or later it will die either because of lack of spare parts or because NVIDIA won't release a driver compatible with my card AND newer Linux kernels. Who knows if I'll be able to use Noveau by then.
On the Android side, Samsung Xcover Pro, Fairphone 4, and Google Pixel 6 all promise 5 years of security updates. Apple has a track record of supporting their phones with 5 to 7 years of security updates after launch.
Sure, some past phones maybe could have been supported longer, but things ARE getting better. Don't just focus on the negative, embrace the positive things happening in mobile hardware, too.
Readit News
* Phone hardware alternatives to mainstream brands
* Linux-based OS * Others - mostly android-based alternatives edit: updated according to commentsHW-makers, just want to sell HW. They don't care about the SW, and will just do whatever they can to sell the HW. We need to force HW makers to open SW. It can even be beneficial for them by reducing their development costs.
And then, we can have SW-makers competing on long-term support, and features, and openness, etc.
Does such a scheme ring any bell? Yes, there are actually already such small niche products! Ever heard of Windows? RedHat? SuSE? That's exactly what they are doing! We just need such schemes on smartphones.
How would a separation work? I can't say I have a full solution, but here are some ideas:
- Remove the arbitrary limitations for backups. Both Android and iOS backups are severely lacking when it comes to user backuping their device to their own services. Why is this important? Because IMO the biggest user lockdown is not being able to transfer data
- Impose some standards. I don't like UEFI, it feels clunky, and old, but it's standardized, it's pretty clear what are the responsibilities in it.
- Make "bootloader unlock" more standard. I think that ideally, it would be HW switch or button, which is hidden, that is documented in user guide. Like chromebook's unlock screw. Actually, it shouldn't be so much an "unlock", but rather a "change root signing keys", but anyway.
There are some limitations for sure, and currently, the best way to get longer support on as many devices as possible is through Project Treble, so it requires to have Android as a basis provided by the OEM. It doesn't feel right to me. I dream of being able to impose Linux mainline support, but uh, no, I don't see it happening anytime soon.
Also, even though I would want to force Apple to unlock their bootloader, they are not doing anything wrong wrt long term support, so forcing this down to them on the ground of right to repair, doesn't feel ok.
There's no world where phone makers stop customizing the software they ship, even if forced to allow users to install competing OSes. It affords some product differentiation and helps tie users to the platform. Even if you let me install an open OS on my iPhone tomorrow, I couldn't possibly do it because all of my digital life is tied up in Apple's ecosystem (including the human capital of learning to use the platform well).
Pinephone is China or Hong Kong based. It comes with one month warranty (within EU, warranty must be 2 years).
Maemo Leste is not based on Android, neither is Sailfish OS. These are Linux OSes, but the Android emulation layer (which SFOS has but costs money for license) might be Android-based, I don't know. Maemo Leste contains no Android emulation, it actually predecesses Android. Nokia was into Linux-based mobile devices back in the mid 2000's.
You could also add devices like Planet Astro Slide to the list as it comes with a hardware keyboard (if its like the Cosmo one then I can say: the one Pinephone has, isn't quite as good, but is also relatively cheap). I posted about recent smartphones with hardware keyboards here [2].
Iodé might also be interesting, I don't know anything about it other than its a LineageOS + microG adaptation, like /e/
[1] https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone_Software_Releases
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30415716
Retail version will be available soon, $100 more expensive, with the right support. See here: https://www.pine64.org/2022/02/15/february-update-chat-with-...
linux / qt and all. good.
Android-app support.. ~ yes. good. If app doesnot work it's mostly because it wants to googleize me.. and fail. i can live with that.
Some websites won't open because somewhat old webkit - the hell with them.
No native clients for this or that.. meh. i can live with it.
it's essentialy like a computer in pocket as it should be. everyday things. ssh and what not if u really want.
Not an eye-enabled-wallet as all else has become..
Spoiler: probably left with only Graphene and Calyx.
Security matters, and no!, hacks/exploits don't only happen to those who are specifically targeted!
I'd say this is why we need e-waste legislation.
Because it's not a project with a goal of breathing old life into provably less-secure hardware.
If you want to reduce e-waste, know you will be reducing your security, and use Lineage or whatever targets the most devices,
not the most security.
One of my tablets is an Amazon device which stopped getting updates to Amazon's proprietary Android 5-based OS. But it runs Android 10-derived LineageOS just fine. A relative was just going to throw it out because the software was out of date. The amount of e-waste produced due to this practice must be scandalous.
Purely in terms of specs and performance, most devices since about 2017 can run the latest software. Manufacturers rarely support the device for more than a year or two, though. This pattern of behaviour goes all the way back to the very first Android device. The HTC Dream was dropped after Android 1.6 but it can run later versions.
As Google faces antitrust action in many jurisdictions, I hope one of them grants us full control over the devices that we have purchased, especially when they are abandoned or otherwise the victims of neglect.
This sort of lockdown is equivalent to selling someone a car, but not providing them the keys - Oh, you wanted to start your car? Just call us and we'll do it for you.
It would be utterly unacceptable to call that ownership for most other physical items, and we shouldn't allow companies to sell hardware with digital locks if the owner isn't provided a key.
I don't mind the lock (just like I want my car to have a lock) but I damn sure better have a key.
My Pixel 3a is going to stop receiving security updates this May. It’s still a perfectly good phone despite the increasing slowdowns with every system or Play Service update.
I’ve learned my lesson and switched to iPhone as my next main phone, and relegated the Pixel to serve as a backup.
I am contemplating a switch to /e/os from the original developer of Mandrake Linux. I'm going to try it out on a OnePlus 3 at some point in the future.
MicroG is included with /e/os and Lineage remains hostile to it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//e/_(operating_system)
https://e.foundation/
https://lineage.microg.org/
"we will keep this next iPhone secure and working snappily for basic tasks, web/email/utility apps" --- No Android phone maker can even make this guarantee for more than 2 years.
Deleted Comment
Now you're paying, AND don't have the security.
> Qualcomm has confirmed to me that it is still able to deliver Qualcomm-specific software updates for the Snapdragon 845, and while kernel-level support will be an issue for the chipset beginning with Android 13, things right now under Android 12 are just fine.
Snapdragon 845 is what powers most high end Android phones from 2018, and I don't know of any manufacturer that still delivers updates to those phones even though they're still perfectly usable. It is often reported that updates beyond a couple of years isn't possible because of Qualcomm, but they don't seem to be the issue in this case.
Especially with as few as ten million Pixel 3s sold [1], and a half-life of less than two years for cell phone usage, it's going to be hard to justify even a single engineer-year so late in the game for such a small audience.
[1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/pixel-3-by-the-numbers-googles...
I don't understand how it could take a full time engineer one year to produce a software update for an already fully functional phone. Even if that was the case, $500k/year for ten million devices is 5 cents per phone. If companies can't be bothered to spend 5 cents to keep a fully functional phone from becoming e-waste for another year I think regulation is in order.
For reference four of Google's execs recently got huge bonuses ($2M) for contributions to "Google’s performance against social and environmental goals for 2022."
https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/4/22867419/google-execs-mill...
[0] https://calyxos.org/
(Apparently there's some bad blood between Calyx and Graphene, which is a shame. Both seem solid.)
I tend to work on apps that do not rely heavily on Google Play Services. BUT I should also add that this CalyxOS phone and an /e/ foundation phone I have, are 2 of about 10 Android phones of varying manufacturers and SDK levels which I am constantly rotating thru while developing. I like to make sure I am testing my stuff on a broad array of Android devices, including non-google ones. I certainly wouldn't recommend that anyone use a non-google Android phone for _all_ dev purposes when targeting mainline Google Android phones.
I should also note that MicroG[0] attempts to solve this problem, with admittedly mixed results, but I have positive feelings about its future.
[0] https://microg.org/
+1 points for Google for cool stuff like Project Treble (gotta keep techies on board)
-99 points for Google for abandoning Flagship devices for 99% of users that techies might have sold to family and friends.
(I really would like to understand better.)
What does Google do with that? They actually use that, to deprecate devices FASTER than ever.
How? Well, now that the HALs are perfectly formalized, they can say "Okay, a device launched with Android 8, used audio HAL 2.0, while Android 9-launched devices use audio HAL 3.0. We support Android for 3 upgrades, so for Android 12, we can REMOVE the whole code supporting Audio HAL 2.0". While before that, Google couldn't really know what code to remove or not, because they couldn't really know what was used.
So yes, Project Treble, in current Google's implementation, Project Treble turns out to obsolete things even faster than before, and in Google's new Treblish certification plans, I see no place for Fairphones or nVidia Shield with real long-term support.
So, overall, IMO, Project Treble net result is pretty close to 0 (it does have some positive aspects, not just the negatives I just said).
My hope is that some company would appear to lack this gap. Because thanks to Treble, it is actually possible to make reasonable long-term support, by making the code that Google removed to bring back support.
Sure, some past phones maybe could have been supported longer, but things ARE getting better. Don't just focus on the negative, embrace the positive things happening in mobile hardware, too.