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horsawlarway commented on Why we still build with Ruby   getlago.com/blog/why-we-s... · Posted by u/FinnLobsien
at0mic22 · 6 days ago
With rails you'd always have to pay for absence of strict types with extensive testing where you'd basically have to verify that data structures match.

I don't buy it anymore

horsawlarway · 5 days ago
This is where I landed too.

Type system support, and the tooling around that support, has gotten SO much more powerful in the last decade or so.

Lots of the warts also got burned off with better support for smart typing, auto vars, duck typing for inputs, etc.

That tooling covers a HUGE swath of bugs that I just don't have to worry nearly as much about, and it makes quick refactoring less painful and less risky.

Going back to Rails feels like stepping back into the dark ages. So many stupid repeated tests/specs for things that should just be in a type system. The tests are slower to write, cover less ground, and are much more brittle.

My tooling isn't as capable, my feedback loop is slower (hard to beat instant type hinting for errors/mismatches right in my editor as I type), and I feel like I'm working with a blindfold on.

---

Yes, parts of Rails are great, yes - if you know it already it's a very productive environment. But man do I absolutely hate the lack of interest in type systems from the majority of Rails devs.

It's hard to overstate how valuable it is to be able to change a data structure and have all 29 places you might have broken immediately presented to you with basically no effort on your end outside of some minor type work.

I will pick it every time over having to write 29 specs in rails to get even close to the same safety.

horsawlarway commented on This website is for humans   localghost.dev/blog/this-... · Posted by u/charles_f
bbarnett · 12 days ago
Context. Note that we're having a discussion about people putting up websites, and being upset about AI snarfing that content.

> I guess what we should really ask, is why on Earth should anyone produce anything, if the end result is not one sees it?

>

> And instead, they just read a summary from an AI?

The above is referring to that context. To people wanting others to see things, and that after all is what this whole website's, this person's concerns are about.

So now that this is reiterated, in the context of someone wanting to show things to the world, why would they produce -- if their goal is lost?

This doesn't mean they don't do things privately for their friends and family. This isn't a binary, 0/1 solution. Just because you have a website for "all those other people" to see, doesn't mean you don't share things between your friends and family.

So what you seem to dislike, is that anyone does it at all. Because again, people writing for eyeballs at large, doesn't mean they aren't separately for their friends or family.

It seems to me that you're also creating a schism between "family / friends" and "all those other people". Naturally you care for those close to you, but "those other people" are people too.

And some people just see people as... people. People to share things with.

Yet you seem to be making that a nasty, dirty thing.

horsawlarway · 12 days ago
And the content is still there for those people.

The only folks who miss it are the ones who choose to use an llm instead of looking for something different.

I guess my opinion is that you can't "make the horse drink". So instead focus on the groups that care enough to go find your content.

Those people still exist.

If the only joy you got was "the number of people who look at me!"... Then yes, that number is probably going to go down. But I also really do think that's a generally bad reason to be doing an activity.

Again, personalities vary, and I won't deny people (pretty much all of us) crave that type of attention in some form or another. I just think, socially speaking, we're better off with less of that right now.

horsawlarway commented on This website is for humans   localghost.dev/blog/this-... · Posted by u/charles_f
krupan · 12 days ago
"this was literally the mission statement of the semantic web" which most everyone either ignored or outright rejected, but thanks for forcing it on us anyway?
horsawlarway · 12 days ago
I guess if my options for getting a ramen recipe are

- Search for it and randomly click on SEO spam articles all over the place, riddled with ads, scrolling 10,000 lines down to see a generally pretty uninspired recipe

or

- Use an LLM and get a pretty uninspired recipe

I don't really see much difference.

And we were already well past the days where I got anything other than the first option using the web.

There was a brief window were intentionally searching specific sites like reddit/hn worked, but even that's been gone for a couple years now.

The best recipe is going to be the one you get from your friends/family/neighbors anyways.

And at least on the LLM side - I can run it locally and peg it to a version without ads.

horsawlarway commented on This website is for humans   localghost.dev/blog/this-... · Posted by u/charles_f
SamBam · 12 days ago
The internet would not exist if it consisted of people just putting stuff out there, happy that it's released into the wilds of the overall consciousness, and nothing more. People are willing to put the time and effort into posting stuff for other reasons. Building community, gaining recognition, making money. Even on a website like HN we post under consistent usernames with the vague sense that these words are ours. If posts had no usernames, no one would comment on this site.

It's completely disingenuous to say that everyone who creates content -- blog authors, recipe creators, book writers, artists, etc -- should just be happy feeding the global consciousness because then everyone will get a tiny diluted iota of their unattributed wisdom.

horsawlarway · 12 days ago
How old are you?

I'm old enough I remember a vivid internet of exactly that.

Back when you couldn't make money from ads, and there was no online commerce.

Frankly - I think the world might be a much better place if we moved back in that direction a bit.

If you're only doing it for money or credit, maybe do something else instead?

> If posts had no usernames, no one would comment on this site.

I'd still comment. I don't actually give much of a shit about the username attached. I'm here to have a casual conversation and think about things. Not for some bullshit internet street cred.

horsawlarway commented on This website is for humans   localghost.dev/blog/this-... · Posted by u/charles_f
bbarnett · 12 days ago
It's a very simple metric. They had nothing of value, no product, no marketable thing.

Then they scanned your site. They had to, along with others. And in scanning your site, they scanned the results of your work, effort, and cost.

Now they have a product.

I need to be clear here, if that site has no value, why do they want it?

Understand, these aren't private citizens. A private citizen might print out a recipe, who cares? They might even share that with friends. OK.

But if they take it, then package it, then make money? That is different.

In my country, copyright doesn't really punish a person. No one gets hit for copying movies even. It does punish someone, for example, copying and then reselling that work though.

This sort of thing should depend on who's doing it. Their motive.

When search engines were operating an index, nothing was lost. In fact, it was a mutually symbiotic relationship.

I guess what we should really ask, is why on Earth should anyone produce anything, if the end result is not one sees it?

And instead, they just read a summary from an AI?

No more website, no new data, means no new AI knowledge too.

horsawlarway · 12 days ago
I guess I don't derive my personal value from the esteem of others.

And I don't mean that as an insult, because I get that different people do things for different reasons, and we all get our dopamine hits in different ways.

I just think that if the only reason you choose to do something is because you think it's going to get attention on the internet... Then you probably shouldn't be doing that thing in the first place.

I produce things because I enjoy producing them. I share them with my friends and family (both in person and online). That's plenty. Historically... that's the norm.

> I guess what we should really ask, is why on Earth should anyone produce anything, if the end result is not one sees it?

This is a really rather disturbing view of the world. Do things for you. I make things because I see it. My family sees it. My friends see it.

I grow roses for me and my neighbors - not for some random internet credit.

I plant trees so my kids can sit under them - not for some random internet credit.

horsawlarway commented on This website is for humans   localghost.dev/blog/this-... · Posted by u/charles_f
CJefferson · 12 days ago
It's absolutely fine for you to be fine with it. What is nonsense is how copyright laws have been so strict, and suddenly AI companies can just ignore everyone's wishes.
horsawlarway · 12 days ago
Hey - no argument here.

I don't think the concept of copyright itself is fundamentally immoral... but it's pretty clearly a moral hazard, and the current implementation is both terrible at supporting independent artists, and a beat stick for already wealthy corporations and publishers to use to continue shitting on independent creators.

So sure - I agree that watching the complete disregard for copyright is galling in its hypocrisy, but the problem is modern copyright, IMO.

...and maybe also capitalism in general and wealth inequality at large - but that's a broader, complicated, discussion.

horsawlarway commented on This website is for humans   localghost.dev/blog/this-... · Posted by u/charles_f
igloopan · 12 days ago
I think you're missing the context that is the article. The candy in this case is the people who may or may not go to read your e.g. ramen recipe. The real problem, as I see it, is that over time, as LLMs absorb the information covered by that recipe, fewer people will actually look at the search results since the AI summary tells them how to make a good-enough bowl of ramen. The amount of ramen enjoyers is zero-sum. Your recipe will, of course, stay up and accessible to real people but LLMs take away impressions that could have been yours. In regards to this metaphor, they take your candy and put it in their own bowl.
horsawlarway · 12 days ago
So what is the goal behind gathering those impressions?

Why do you take this as a problem?

And I'm not being glib here - those are genuine questions. If the goal is to share a good ramen recipe... are you not still achieving that?

horsawlarway commented on This website is for humans   localghost.dev/blog/this-... · Posted by u/charles_f
shiomiru · 12 days ago
> They mostly aren't worth worrying about

Well, a common pattern I've lately been seeing is:

* Website goes down/barely accessible

* Webmaster posts "sorry we're down, LLM scrapers are DoSing us"

* Website accessible again, but now you need JS-enabled whatever the god of the underworld is testing this week with to access it. (Alternatively, the operator decides it's not worth the trouble and the website shuts down.)

So I don't think your experience about LLM scrapers "not mattering" generalizes well.

horsawlarway · 12 days ago
Nah - it generalizes fine.

They're doing exactly what I said - adding PoW (anubis - as you point out - being one solution) to gate access.

That's hardly different than things like Captchas which were a big thing even before LLMs, and also required javascript. Frankly - I'd much rather have people put Anubis in front of the site than cloudflare, as an aside.

If the site really was static before, and no JS was needed - LLM scraping taking it down means it was incredibly misconfigured (an rpi can do thousands of reqs/s for static content, and caching is your friend).

---

Another great solution? Just ask users to login (no js needed). I'll stand pretty firmly behind "If you aren't willing to make an account - you don't actually care about the site".

My take is that search engines and sites generating revenue through ads are the most impacted. I just don't have all that much sympathy for either.

Functionally - I think trying to draw a distinction between accessing a site directly and using a tool like an LLM to access a site is a mistake. Like - this was literally the mission statement of the semantic web: "unleash the computer on your behalf to interact with other computers". It just turns out we got there by letting computers deal with unstructured data, instead of making all the data structured.

horsawlarway commented on This website is for humans   localghost.dev/blog/this-... · Posted by u/charles_f
rangerelf · 12 days ago
A better analogy is that LLM crawlers are candy store workers going through the houses grabbing free candy and then selling it in their own shop.

Scalpers. Knowledge scalpers.

horsawlarway · 12 days ago
Except nothing is actually taken.

It's copied.

If your goal in publishing the site is to drive eyeballs to it for ad revenue... then you probably care.

If your goal in publishing the site is just to let people know a thing you found or learned... that goal is still getting accomplished.

For me... I'm not in it for the fame or money, I'm fine with it.

horsawlarway commented on This website is for humans   localghost.dev/blog/this-... · Posted by u/charles_f
workethics · 12 days ago
> That said ... putting part of your soul into machine format so you can put it on on the big shared machine using your personal machine and expecting that only other really truly quintessentially proper personal machines receive it and those soulless other machines don't ... is strange.

That's a mischaracterization of most people want. When I put out a bowl of candy for Halloween I'm fine with EVERYONE taking some candy. But these companies are the equivalent of the asshole that dumps the whole bowl into their bag.

horsawlarway · 12 days ago
I really don't think this holds.

It's vanishingly rare to end up in a spot where your site is getting enough LLM driven traffic for you to really notice (and I'm not talking out my ass - I host several sites from personal hardware running in my basement).

Bots are a thing. Bots have been a thing and will continue to be a thing.

They mostly aren't worth worrying about, and at least for now you can throw PoW in front of your site if you are suddenly getting enough traffic from them to care.

In the mean time...

Your bowl of candy is still there. Still full of your candy for real people to read.

That's the fun of digital goods... They aren't "exhaustible" like your candy bowl. No LLM is dumping your whole bowl (they can't). At most - they're just making the line to access it longer.

u/horsawlarway

KarmaCake day10038May 23, 2017View Original