I've spent several years working on side projects and would like to return to remote work. I have a bit of management experience and a bit of coding experience. I think the employment gap is hard to explain for either role. What is the best way for me to start doing remote work?
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How would you explain all this work if you were hired by a small company to build them? You wouldn't hesitate to claim the years working on these interesting projects as valuable years and part of your career growth and progression.
We tend to downplay things we do or build ourselves, as if the very fact that another person (a boss) tells us to do something makes it immediately more valuable than if we choose to do that something ourselves.
It doesn't. The app you built because you chose to has just as much value as the app you built because someone paying you a monthly check told you to build it.
Wrap your 'side projects' inside a business and claim the credit for all that work.
This is invaluable advice. I had a similar problem when returning to the market after years doing my own things. Someone here suggested leaning into the failed startup I’d attempted with a colleague rather than downplaying it. Despite that, I still had a tough time getting initial calls.
I eventually landed a three-month contract job. That rehabilitated my resume and I had no trouble getting callbacks once I had some recent work history. Don’t be above taking a short term gig if you find that the phone isn’t ringing. It might be the thing that turns that around.
> We tend to downplay things we do or build ourselves, as if the very fact that another person (a boss) tells us to do something makes it immediately more valuable than if we choose to do that something ourselves. It doesn't.
It does, in the sense that it's actually a pretty high bar to get to a point where you can afford employees with management and have directed product growth. It doesn't mean it's better in an absolute sense -- sometimes the very opposite! -- but you might be setting yourself up for disappointment if you don't acknowledge the differences.
Oh wow this just clicked something for me. I need to do that for me too so that I actually work on the damn things instead of thinking of them as projects on the side
But yeah they won't care about the crappy products since all the companies you interview with are doing the same, honestly the real followup question would be what do you do about references
This is true about a majority of small/medium (and sometimes even big) startups.
I disagree, if you built something that involved collaborating with others thats inherently more valuable than what you build on your own. The reason is simple -- external assessment is ALWAYS preferred to self assessment of skill.
It's the difference between you saying you're a good programmer and someone else saying you're a good programmer. That small bit of indirection is very important.
To recruiters it's as if it was a waste of their time to even listen to me mentioning it.
Do I need to clone Instagram to allow myself a line on a resume
If you applied to a job I have, I’d mostly interview you like a normal person, and then I’d say “If you’ve on your own for 9 years, are you sure you really want a normal job? I want to hire you. But this is a job, and that means sometimes you’re gonna have to put up with this company’s bullshit. Even though we do our best to keep the bullshit to a minimum, we still deal with crap we’d rather not do. Tell me why you’re interested and willing to put up with bullshit, and don’t just tell me you need the money.” If you have a good answer to that question, I think you’ll be fine for a job that matches your value proposition.
I don't think there are many sane persons around, who honestly want to deal with company bullshit, if not for the money.
I mean, you can find a million fake answers, "I want the challenge", "I want to improve myself in difficult situations", blabla, - but this is exactly the kind of bullshit I am only willing to put up with, if I need the money. So why can he just be honest and say so?
I mean, it is a valid concern, if a person who was on his own for a long time, can fit back in into a coporation, and it needs some convincing that he actually can - but telling people to fake motivation, when all they actually want is the money - just increases company bullshit.
Even if the your knee jerk truthful answer is "I just want the money" it might be deeper than that. When I went from consulting full time for ~4 years to corporate work, I would have told you it was just for the money, but it was actually for the stability and peace of mind to not worry where my next rent check was coming from.
I really don't think this is true. I know a fair number of people who don't really have to work but choose to. And far more who could do something else tomorrow, including self employment, without trouble.
One common factor is the desire to achieve something bigger than you can do as an individual. There is probably some selection bias at work here but I don't think it's so unusual.
I do agree that when considering hiring someone who has been working individually for a long time, you'll want to probe how they will fit into a team. That's not the same thing.
...but also the most rewarding. For me, no, the money would not be enough to put up with the bullshit, not by itself. Much more compelling is the idea that multiple people working together as an effective team can build things of greater scope, quality, and importance than one person can working alone.
Of course, if "people here can't work together as an effective team" - e.g. because the culture is overly cutthroat, or the environment is interruption-prone, or project teams are demotivated by a lack of trust / agency / autonomy, or impossible deadlines are the norm - well, if those things are part of the bullshit, no amount of money will make that enjoyable and rewarding.
In such an environment, what's a rational strategy? Probably to save up a bunch of money, to the point where the next job search can be motivated by things other than immediate financial need, and quit once that's achieved. (Hence "rest and vest" behaviour, which is often a huge red flag about the organization and not the individual person.)
It is possible to be motivated by both the money and other aspects of the job, and in my own experience this is the case for all of the best coworkers I've had over the years.
> telling people to fake motivation, when all they actually want is the money - just increases company bullshit.
With this perspective, anyone who chooses to see the glass half full instead of half empty is bullshitting. Anyone who says or does something kind to somebody else even though their own life is not perfect, is bullshitting. You could make that argument but that's not what most people would call bullshit.
Doesn't mean I'll never want to leave again, of course, but... working on your own is one type of challenge - working with a team, and losing some autonomy is another.
"Tell me why you’re interested and willing to put up with bullshit".
This presumes someone working on their own isn't dealing with bullshit already. If you're solo, but doing any form of client work, you have a level of bullshit you're already handling. Invoicing/collections/payroll/legal/insurance - it's not necessarily overwhelming in most cases, but... it's another thing that many would happily give up in exchange for a different type of 'bullshit'.
Yes, getting to work on certain type of projects - there's things that only 'bigco X' can realistically tackle - I may be willing to put up with corporate bullshit to work with a certain class of projects (scale, industry focus, etc).
If I knew some of the folks on the team already, and wanted to work with them, that would also be a big factor. Perhaps they'd even want to work with me! :). I have a list of a handful of folks I've either worked with or watched work/progress over the years, and if the opportunity came up to work with them, in whatever capacity, I would probably consider putting up with whatever 'company X' wanted to make that happen.
The only other motivations I can see as being viable as a response (other than working because you have to earn money to live a certain lifestyle) is "I really want to learn XYZ and I can't do that on my own without working in a team with more resources" or for NGOs hiring there could be further social good motivations.
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- Get to work with and learn from other colleagues who are as motivated as you
- Greater economies of scale and budgets, probably a nice office and physical working environment
- Can focus on detail instead of having to do absolutely everything yourself and split your attention
- Consistent employment instead of volatile business income makes it easier to get a loan to buy a house
- Structured work environment and professional support network
But I'd start by saying OP is fucked
It's a good market so you'll find something
Eventually
You're obviously smart because you could chill for a few years
(Or you got an inheritance)
The general genre of reading you are looking for is "why entrepreneurs can't get hired" -- something like that.
I would be honest-ish about the money
You, like 99% of people with 9 to 5s, need a job because you need money and/or healthcare
That is impolite to talk about often but it could actually work
There is a bit more honesty going on right now because of pandemic trauma
I'd look to pick up a contract by answering some of the 8 trillion spam emails you're getting
Perm jobs are going to be like fuck this guy
Imo
This is probably the best way back in. Employers are less fussy if it looks like you can solve their immediate problem and once you have proved your worth they will probably offer a full time job anyway.
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This is a bit unconstructive.
Yeah, the poster is not engaging with how the recruiting pipeline really works.
Concretely, to get back into the top of the funnel, you should pay for a compsci masters program at a respectable university. This is a good career reset opportunity and will nullify the need to investigate your past.
Another commenter mentioned leetcoding, which is essential.
It's really concerning you're focusing on remote work. If anything in-office work is super uncompetitive right now, which you can always turn into whatever arrangement you want. Don't start off by talking about stuff that makes people say, "fuck this guy."
I agree with the other posters that you shouldn't really term them side-projects if they were your main focus. Then they're just projects! :) Don't undersell yourself.
Thankfully, I have no intention of getting employed, so it's a reasonable stalemate; I just carry on working on my various projects.
You’re not missing out on anything. If something you’d be unpleasantly surprised how convoluted team work and new pipelines have become. Being independent is a healthy path to keep away from toxicity. But I agree about the unemployabiloty nagging feeling, it’s psychologically unpleasant to feel that but should you ever reenter the corp pool you’d hate it with all your guts.
- "there is no reason to spend the time looking at what people have done on GitHub"
- "Employers don’t really care [about a github link]"
- "None of that extracurricular stuff matters"
There are literally hiring managers in the thread saying that they like seeing Github links, and have hired founders of one-person companies. So these generalizations are false.
If you have evidence that your opinion represents the overwhelming majority, feel free to post it. If you're talking about FAANG, then you should qualify your statement. Most programmers don't work at FAANG.
Don’t look for a job, instead look for the person you can help.
There is a senior executive out there, a line manager who you can serve and solve problems for.
Get clarity around who this person could be. What kind of organization? Where do they sit? (LinkedIn is a great resource for this). * I’ve found smaller companies, less than 100 people easier to work with.
Now, reach out to them for a discovery conversation. See if your circles overlap.
Essentially, avoid the common trap of filling out job applications, hoping to pass the HR filter.
I am decent with computers built gaming rigs, overclocked, built servers, set up home labs and networks, built html sites, wordpress sites and was doing extremely well in school. We often talked about how I always was working on different projects.
I have been IC at this company for 4 years now with minimal supervision delivering apps. I did not have an interview.
Therefore, I agree with this advice. Many companies are looking for developers who can develop apps for them as ICs, and OPs experience would be perfect.
The key is the intentionality of the experience. Unless you had no choice but to work on side projects, odds are you had some goal. Whether it was to learn how to build something from start to finish, provide support to someone in need, discover a passion, get experience with something specific, or something other, concentrate on that element.
Employment gaps are typically a concern if:
1. It suggests the candidate wanted to work but couldn't get a job. 2. It suggests the candidate will not stick around for long.
Employment gaps that served a purpose in someone's life are just as valuable as an employment history. Make it part of the narrative by explaining its role in your life, and how it characterizes you as a person ("I took a year off to care for sick parents") or how it served as growth ("I wanted to get more experience with X").
From experience, early in my career I took time off because I wanted to get better at understanding, structuring, and maintaining code test suites. Later on I had a gap when I tried to start a business. These aren't just times where I wasn't working, they are times deliberately devoted to something in my life, and they actually help the job hunt rather than hinder it.
I love seeing side projects, both because
- it shows you have entrepreneurial skills (care about and able to think about more than just code)
- as well as the technical side (shows you’re able to build from scratch, probably work across the stack, etc.)
Show off as much as you can:
- leave the websites up even if the business isn’t viable. Better to be able to see and play with a side project versus just seeing a line on a resume and having no idea how significant or good it was.
- open source what you can. It can be very helpful to point to code from real projects you wrote, especially if you have a gap in employment.
Try to foster great references. Even if they aren’t recent, you will do better if you have a few raving fans.
Unless you had a lot of management experience, I suggest trying to find a job as an IC. More open roles / people seem more desperate for developers. If you’re good, it won’t matter much if you have a gap. Personally I prefer to hire ICs who have a little management experience because they tend to be better employees as well as are more likely to be someone who can eventually lead/manage with us as well.
Overall: the biggest thing is you want to show that you have been doing good technical work over the last few years versus just some unemployable person who had “projects”.
I’m hiring frontend/React and backend/Python engineers: phil@close.com
In hindsight, I was just working on my side project for 18 months, unpaid.
What I did was list the business on my resume just like any other job. I put myself as "co-founder" instead of putting in a fancy title like "CTO."
When questioned about details of the business, or why I was looking for a job, I just point that I'm a horrible businessperson and better off working for someone else. If pressed further, I point out that no job is perfect, and the ups and downs of a normal job are preferable to getting my way all the time but not getting paid.
You'll be fine!
Example: See how I list AppFeeds and ObjectCloud: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gwbas1c/