Launch HN: Chorus Meditation (YC W21) – Meditation for Non-Meditators

Hey everyone! I’m Ali and, together with my co-founders MK, Alex, and Warren, I’m building Chorus Meditation (https://chorusmeditation.com/). We provide online group meditation classes led by trained instructors.

MK and I met after we both had found the benefits of a traditional meditation practice, but only after much difficulty getting started because it took over 30 days to feel the benefits and it can often feel isolating and like nothing is “working.” At the time, MK was a top SoulCycle instructor. She is a master at creating community and motivating people to be their best through a perfect balance of humor, approachability, vulnerability, and acceptance. I was an avid SoulCycle rider and we bonded over our shared love for meditation and separately, our love for the instantly gratifying and social experience that SoulCycle had created. She and I decided that if we could create an experience for the mind that mirrored what SoulCycle had done for the body, we could help millions of people just like us.

So, we spent months, combining different mindfulness techniques into a new method, testing out various versions on our living floors. We tried starting the class with a 3 minute traditional meditation before moving into the breathing pattern - no dice - we had promised people non-traditional meditation so when we hit them with exactly traditional meditation right at the start, it turned people off. Next we tried getting into the breathing pattern right off the bat -- still no dice. But we kept at it, and 16 major iterations later, we landed on what is now our Chorus class.

Traditional meditation can be life-changing for those who stick with it, but the unfortunate truth is that for most people it’s hard to sustain the discipline to stick with it long enough to unlock the ah-ha moment. Once you cross that threshold you feel its power, but with Chorus we are trying to help people who struggle with that onboarding phase cross the threshold more easily. We've found that one of the main barriers many people run into with traditional meditation is that they're doing it alone, and they often feel like nothing is happening. So, we made Chorus 1) social, with warm, personable teachers and fellow class attendees, 2) fun, with new and popular music, and 3) designed to give motivating results in the first session and on-going. For example, the breathing pattern we use brings more oxygen into the body than normal inhales and exhales, which causes a tingling sensation, giving users a quick and satisfying feeling even in the first session. You can think of the tingles like endorphins in exercise - they feel good and tell you that something is working - so you are satisfied and want to come back for more. Everything in Chorus is designed to motivate you to keep going.

Our members pay $40-a-month to have access to live and pre-recorded classes set to the beat of popular music like Beyonce, Odesza, Bon Iver, etc, that help them start their day with a positive mindset or unwind at night before bed. If you want to give it a try, we just launched a new class specifically designed to help you sleep — https://chorusmeditation.com/#book-a-class

One of our users, a mother of young twins, shared: “my first experience unlocked something in me. Something visceral, and I thought - ‘this is so worth exploring.’” This is exactly the kind of reaction we’re going for.

I want to emphasize that we’re in no way trying to replace traditional meditation. We, ourselves, are reverent students of traditional practices. And we're well aware that we don't have anything to teach the millennia-old traditions of India and China. What we are trying to do is bridge the gap for people who find traditional techniques challenging so that they can avoid the discouraging feeling of “I’m doing this wrong” and empower them to develop their own mindfulness practice.

Another thing we do to support our users in the early stages of practice is provide a community in which they can share their experiences and get encouragement to keep going. This is one of the more satisfying aspects for us, because people report their positive experiences as well as their challenges. We hear from users who report feeling more calm and focused, or sleeping better, all the way up to "Chorus has truly transformed my life...I didn’t think I would ever have a relationship with my mom again, and now because of Chorus, I do.”

We are building Chorus for our collective community, so I’d really love to hear this community’s feedback. We'd love to hear from everybody, whether you're a complete meditation skeptic, someone who's found meditation challenging, or a seasoned meditator who has achieved total equanimity! We're eager to hear your experiences and thoughts and feedback!

Over to you, HN!

I find it a little problematic when these ancient practices are separated from their broader context. There are further, unknown implications by doing so. It is similar to what was done with what we call "Yoga" here in the west. I am not saying that these practices cannot evolve, they must. But they are certainly part of a tradition that has been coherently applied and studied for centuries.

In my opinion the result of this type of approach is a diluted, incomplete practice, focused mainly on symptom relief, which tends to forget the heart of the matter.

There is nothing wrong with taking these practices as inspiration to help people, and I think your approach is a good way to bring them to know more about these practices.

But perhaps you should bring a little more of the philosophical/theological side to this modern take on meditation, something like what Stephen Batchelor is doing with his Secular Buddhism.

andrei_says_ · 5 years ago

What we call Yoga in the west is mostly appropriation. The rest is misunderstanding because the concept does not fit in thinking western minds.

The best we get is what tae bo is to professional boxing.

Source: conversations and experiences with someone who had the fortune to study both in New Delhi yoga university and with a Yoga lineage in the Himalayas.

The official university still didn’t touch, or know, of essential elements of the practices. Whether intentionally hidden or forgotten, they are completely unheard of in the West.

In the west we have Yoga laptops for heavens sake.

cercatrova · 5 years ago

What practices specifically in yoga do you speak of? I honestly appreciate that people in the west have secularized both yoga and meditation, as I personally find no value in the spiritual aspects and only find value in the exercise in the case of yoga and helping psychologically in the case of meditation. I'm curious to hear your perspective though, it seems to be different from mine.

dolgo · 5 years ago

Yoga laptops are actually made by a Chinese company, which most people consider to be in the ‘east’. How does that fit into your idea of western appropriation?

aliabramovitz · 5 years ago

Thank you for your input! Our feeling is that we give deep reverence to the traditional practices and the thousands of years of wisdom with which they come, and we are attempting to help other people who haven't connected with those forms develop a mindfulness practice that does connect for them. We believe if more people in the world are practicing mindfulness the world will be a kinder, more compassionate place.

dmje · 5 years ago

Agree. There’s a sort of woo popularity thing with a large tranche of mindfulness which is a bit too goal oriented and westernised for my tastes. I mean, each to their own but for me it’s a bit like abridged classic novels or pseudo classical renderings of Beethoven: it may have the essence of the real thing but in simplifying and “making easy”, it’s also loses much of the depth and richness. Proust and Beethoven aren’t meant into be “easy” or “accessible”, but if you make the effort, your life is richer because of that. Feels the same to me with meditative practice. I’m all for more people doing it but it all too easily feels transient, a passing fad, something that will only be popular with people while it’s fashionable. I’ve found the deeper parts of my practice by persevering through the hard times, by beginning to understand how grasping the human (particularly western) mind is, and by just sitting.

aliabramovitz · 5 years ago

Thank you so much for your feedback! We like to stay away from those aspects as it can be off putting for people who don't subscribe to a certain philosophy or theology. We, instead try to make more approachable for everyone where you don't need to believe in anything other than spreading kindness to yourself and others. We certainly pay homage to where the traditions come from when we talk about the practice, for example at the start of class, or in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUJhfjxvNDE&feature=youtu.be or in this blog post https://chorusmeditation.com/blog/founder-friday-mk-on-our-p...

mathemagical · 5 years ago

In doing this you are completely divorcing a people's fundamental belief system and heritage from them so that "people who don't subscribe to" the existence of that people's heritage, culture and belief system don't feel offended.

This is complete cultural appropriation and you should stop perpetuating it while making money off of it.

solaceb · 5 years ago

Right, spreading kindness, and also you'll just happen to make quite a lot of money

marc_io · 5 years ago

beaconstudios · 5 years ago

There's an interesting tension in your proposition - mindfulness meditation is at least partially about growing your self-awareness (awareness of your internal processes), but social situations tend to make some people self-conscious (aware of their external presentation). Combine that with up-tempo music and I would've thought that kind of environment would make it difficult to attain present awareness. Have you run into this as a real (rather than theoretical, like in my head!) issue, and if so how do you avoid/address it?

Sounds like a great proposition though - anything that bring more people into the meditation fold sounds like a positive to me.

That is such a thoughtful question - thank you! What we have seen is that the upbeat music, because it comes with a very strong BEAT give the mind something EVEN more concrete to focus on (the beat, the breathing pattern, and the teachers voice all serve as the object of attention, like a mantra) - so it does in fact make it easier to cultivate presence for people who find traditional objects of focus (e.g. "following the feeling of the breath") hard to anchor attention on. Regarding the social aspect - what we have found is that going through the class allows you to connect first to yourself more deeply, and then being in that headspace after class opens you up to be more connected to the others in the class. For more extroverted people that can manifest as sharing with the group about their experience - but even for some self proclaimed introverted customers we have talked with, they say knowing that they are sharing the experience with others and just listening to what others say at the end makes them feel less alone in the world.

Thanks for your response! That's interesting - I suppose the beat can form an external point of focus, like trataka/fixed-point meditation, investing your focus into one thing so that the route to self-awareness is noticing when your attention gets pulled off of that subject and onto to something internal like a thought or emotion.

I wish you the best of luck!

mtalantikite · 5 years ago

So is this some sort of hyperventilation breathwork done in savasana to pop music? I guess as long as the breath retentions aren't super long they should be ok, as long as the practitioner doesn't have underlying health issues, but I've seen videos of people having mini seizures doing Wim Hof breathing. Just be careful with it, there's a reason why pranayama is introduced gently and progressively over a long period of time.

Also, I would maybe drop the references to meditation. It seems more like breathwork in the tradition of a Stanislav Grof, which is totally fine and valid, just maybe misleading for newcomers expecting meditation.

Super great comments. Our class is split between the breathwork and then also traditional Vipassana or Insight style meditation. One of the reasons we don't typically describe it as "breathwork" is for the reasons you highlight and have been raised in other comments regarding how the Gof breathwork is supppppper intense. Our method is MUCH more tame and approachable - fitting for a daily practice -- vs when I've done the Grof style I feel completely wiped (in a good way sometimes) but not something Id like to do more than once every few months. All to say - we try and stay away from calling it breathwork because people either 1) think its Grof and are freaked out or 2) think its chill yogic breathing like you do through the nostrils in a yoga class and that’s misleading too. We also have grappled with if we should call it meditation and have decided for the time being that yes - it helps people context set - and the way we use the breath (which is different than the full blown Grof version) together with the beat of music and teachers voice is similar to meditation in that you have an "object of focus" you train the mind to stay on. Would love to hear if you have any ideas for what else to call it - cuz we totally have gone back and forth on this topic.

Yeah, naming is tough! If you're guiding people from something that resembles pranayama to eventually dhyana then I guess calling it meditation would be fine. I'd just make it clear to your students that working with the breath is a preliminary practice, to help them to begin to recognize awareness. And in particular not to attach to the high that comes with exercises like this, chasing sensation. That could set them back when they need to learn about samatha, because vipassana eventually requires it (see, for example, mahamudra teachings).

quaffapint · 5 years ago

As someone who doesn't meditate and would like to get a better idea of what you're offering the first thing I looked for is a video of what it would be like and couldn't find one.

Hey! You're so right and we are working on making a demo available on the website - but in the meantime, let me just share one we have in our system -- here ya go:

https://docsend.com/view/hxra3rnfevsytg4v

bambax · 5 years ago

I'm not familiar with meditation; I hear it's all the rage but I don't understand the benefits. It is said to "reduce stress", but stress is mostly the result of external stimuli. It's a symptom, like fever. If you treat the symptom without addressing the cause, what good is it?

Meditation sounds like a post-religion religion, but at least there was the promise of silence. Now we have loud meditation?

To me this video is quite terrifying; it reminds me of some kind of megachurch experience, a place where a guy like Kenneth Copeland wouldn't look out of place (see the intensity firing up around 21:22 and then dropping off at 23:24).

jabb · 5 years ago

I like the approach, but find the choice of music and the constant speaking of the instructor distressing. Nothing for me in this format.

porker · 5 years ago

This looks interesting. I've tried mindfulness and meditation on and off for over a decade (mostly mindfulness) and struggle as much now to keep focus and not drift into continuing internal conversations as I did when I started.

Recently I have realised I have many Attention Deficit Disorder traits, and likely have ADD.

What's your experience of meditation and people with ADD? How does the practice change for them, and what works best?

I am SO glad you asked this. Meditation is amazing for people who struggle with attention. Essentially what you are doing in meditation is training the brain to be able to stay focused on one thing and that, just like with any other muscle, makes your brain better at this over time. The kind of meditation that is the most effective for helping with focus and things like ADD is called "Focused Attention." In this kind of meditation you focus on an object of focus and dont let you mind drift away. In Chorus we do TONS of focused attention techniques. Essentially what you want is a "concrete object of attention" - so something like a mantra (a phrase you repeat over and over) would be more concrete than say, just feeling your breath. We designed Chorus to give people super concrete objects to focus on so its easier to get into that meditative state.

Since starting to meditate myself I have become way better at reading speed, comprehension and overall focus has improved dramatically.

Here is a study that talks about it: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/108705470730850...

"...and struggle as much now to keep focus and not drift into continuing internal conversations as I did when I started."

If you notice that you're having an internal conversation then you have awareness and you should rejoice in that! I think too often people assume that meditation needs to be a completely focused empty mind at all times. Mingyur Rinpoche does a great job explaining it (and is a great teacher, would highly recommend his courses): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thcEuMDWxoI

vinceguidry · 5 years ago

> For example, the breathing pattern we use brings more oxygen into the body than normal inhales and exhales, which causes a tingling sensation, giving users a quick and satisfying feeling even in the first session.

This is a bit of a party trick that I used in my very brief career as a, well, guru, I think I called myself a life coach cuz that was the hip thing back then. I just went through the basics of deep breathing, fill your belly then your lungs, then use a pattern like box or triangle. Because I was directing them they held the pattern way longer than they would have naturally.

The result is you're effectively hyperventilating. Your body's just not used to that much oxygen. You can get used to it and it's pretty cool because all that oxygen literally energizes you. But after that first time I pulled back on the time spent doing super-deep breathing because it gets in the way of getting into alpha.

FullNameAndy · 5 years ago

Love what you are building! I'm a huge fan of meditation but haven't found one I can keep with. I've tried all the apps but fall off after a couple of sessions or weeks. I'm going to sign up for the free trial. Do you recommend any classes, preferably shorter ones, that I should start with?

That is amazing to hear! That is exactly what we are hoping to help with. I would recommend starting with our teacher MK. She has a 30 minute class this coming Tuesday at 12pm PST. We have seen better onboarding experiences when starting with the live classes (and we rec at least 2 classes a week). I know 45 minutes sounds long, but it does go by quickly. The signature (longer) class also is really great for new community members because we give more of an explanation about what to expect at the beginning. If you are up for it, I would recommend starting with MK's 1pm PST class tomorrow (Friday)! Let me know how that sounds!

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schience · 5 years ago

I love Chorus! I encountered it in the workplace and it blew my mind. The holotropic breathing thing makes me slightly hallucinate. Which is perfect for a work day.

I think it was a good fit with the move to remote world, having a community of people to mediate with - think they have grown a ton. I have friends who like that better. Personally I find myself a little lazy to show up - giving myself some space for that and look forward to in person classes again.

Also love these hackernews comments that seem negative/not understanding.. reminds me of the dropbox snark! Strong signal ladies, keep it up!

Hahah thank you so much! Honestly - we love the discourse too.

We are by no means trying to replace traditional meditation and Chorus certainly isnt for everyone. But for people it IS for we are frickin thrilled to help them unlock a mindfulness practice of their own!

So great to hear about your experience with us back when we were in person. We too hope that some day we can have both a digital and in-person presence because human connection is so important.

I can also relate to the challenge of prioritizing time to do it when you dont have somewhere physical to "GO". That ease of use is exactly what we are working on in our new app, so would love to see if we can help you with our new experience. But totally get if you are just an in-person person :) And we send you big Chorus hugs and thanks again for the support!!