Apple will most likely be fine because it's unlike any other western company operating in China in that it employs a lot of people assembling their products. It's not in the CCP's interest for people to boycott Apple in a nationalist fervor only for unemployment to rise, which would be an existential threat to the CCP if they lost control of.
I doubt it. This is just, like, my opinion, man, but I think the Chinese would walk away from any company in the world in an instant if it suits their security needs. If their economic ministry is doing its job then they will have detailed contingency plans to address the loss of any of their major foreign benefactors, and if required those jobs can be replaced with state handouts, at least until the crisis passes.
If I were Tim Cook I'd be real worried about being shut out of my own supply chain right about now.
> If I were Tim Cook I'd be real worried about being shut out of my own supply chain right about now.
You're not wrong, but if people see that China is willing to shutdown someone as big as Apple, then they'll know that everyone else (who is probably smaller) stand no chance at all. People may start re-evaluating the (economic / supply-chain) risks they're will to take at that point.
China is never going to mess with Apple in any significant way. Not only would it be cutting off their nose to spite their face in terms of unemployment, it would immediately lead to capital flight out of China which they absolutely can't afford.
It'd basically undermine the entire economic model that has led to China's rise out of poverty over the past 30-40 years.
And Apple is such a high profile company that it would likely cause an international incident.
Samsung certainly went from having a large market share in China to being an also ran that abandoned Chinese manufacturing after state led boycotts of their products as a response to South Korea allowing a ballistic missile defense system to be installed on their soil.
As I recall, buying local brands instead was framed as patriotism.
If I were Tim Cook I'd be real worried about being shut out of my own supply chain right about now.
Didn't Apple start ramping up iPhone production in India recently? I agree that China is likely to retaliate but I imagine whatever decision making process there was for approving this HK app involved plenty of lawyers and analysis of potential fallout.
> If their economic ministry is doing its job then they will have detailed contingency plans to address the loss of any of their major foreign benefactors, and if required those jobs can be replaced with state handouT-shirt
Why not already do it instead of taking the risk allowing Western companies undermining their state ideology? Does Apple transfer technology to them and they needed that?
I don’t see them easily recovering, in the PR sense after kicking Apple out. They are already in the defensive posture with HK protests, which they saw get out of hand. Concentration camps for Muslim minorities is a terrible PR disaster. If anything Apple is in a good position to squeeze more concessions and handouts out of them at this point. Even, say make a publicity stunt about opening a factory in Vietnam or moving it back to US.
> Apple will most likely be fine because it's unlike any other western company operating in China in that it employs a lot of people assembling their products. It's not in the CCP's interest for people to boycott Apple in a nationalist fervor only for unemployment to rise, which would be an existential threat to the CCP if they lost control of.
The CCP isn't going to compromise on its core authoritarian and nationalist values over a piddling concern about the unemployment caused by one Western company leaving. Apple's not that important, and my guess is the problems caused by the trade war dwarf any effect Apple could cause.
Also, I doubt they like Apple much anyway, and they would probably welcome the disruption to Apple that it would experience during a pullout. Might create opportunities for Huawei or Oppo.
So I googled and saw that there's 4.8 Million apple employees in China? More than i expected when I started the Google search.
With that said, is that enough for China to care at all? a little? a lot? Meaning, I wouldn't be surprised if China would forgo plenty of jobs from Western companies as their economy matures. Especially if China fully boycotted Apple, I doubt many other US Companies would respond at all
Many of those companies are showing themselves to be spineless right now
It's easy to boycott companies that are only in China as another market to sell to. It's not easy to boycott one of the largest private employers in an industry the CCP views as strategically important.
Is that number direct employee's or does that include MFG/Suppliers etc?
Either way, 4.8 million people + friends/family, being angry is not a small number. China's population is ~1.3 billion according to CIA world fact book. So it's certainly less than 1% of the population, but not insignificant.
Samsung has just closed its last phone manufacturing plant in China and has no such production left in the country:
The shutdown of Samsung’s last China phone factory comes after it cut production at the plant in the southern city of Huizhou in June and suspended another factory late last year, underscoring stiff competition in the country.
The South Korean tech giant’s ceased phone production in China follows other manufacturers shifting production from China due to rising labor costs and the economic slowdown.
It's not like Apple would stop making and selling phones. And I doubt people wanting to buy a iPhone are the same as those wanting a phone from another brand.
Here we see the true form of the word "toxic" as it is applied in modern discourse.
>“Providing a gateway for ‘toxic apps’ is hurting the feelings of the Chinese people, twisting the facts of Hong Kong affairs, and against the views and principles of the Chinese people,”
It's a way to say something is bad without saying anything about it.
The term in the context of propaganda is as clear as it gets though, if you mean to say "infecting or enabling otherwise 'sane' people with 'undesirable' ideas and behaviors".
Toxic is subtext that directly speaks to people (Chinese) wondering "what should I do?" => don't use it, don't even approach it or look at it (it's toxic).
It's idiomatic and quite explicit, in subtext, in this context (Chinese gov stuff).
Been an Android users since the first Android phone (HTC G1), before that I was on Windows Mobile. If Apple opened things up I would switch in a heartbeat. I doubt it will happen though.
I could never trust Apple given their track record.
Plus, their hardware is overpriced for what you get.
I genuinely have a hard time understanding the appeal. It seems to have the Gucci brand name, maybe integrations but I don't feel this is lacking on Android, and maybe privacy but I don't trust Apple for privacy.
Title is kinda misleading. A more accurate but longer one is like 'China state media journalist accused Apple approving app that aid violent protesters from evading police"
IANAL, but “evade law enforcement” seems inaccurate.
> HKMAP helps residents comply with the wishes of law enforcement (who communicate their demands by colored flags quickly raised in the dark).
> …[the app] doesn't contravene any Hong Kong law that I am aware of. This app helps answer questions like "will I get shot with a bean bag round if I come out of this MTR station, because the police raised a colored flag I can't see".
—Maciej Ceglowski, the American who runs the Pinboard bookmarking service, who has been in Hong Kong for a while now, to follow the protests.
NYT:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/world/asia/china-apple-nb...
Even the same organisation. Still not a conspiracy but as a non US citizen it's clear that a lot of the US media doesn't treat China the same as the US. I am sure it's like that in every country, but that makes it difficult to find objective news, or at least news that doesn't have an emotional charge to it.
Uh, the Chinese state media journalist is speaking on behalf of the government. Do you think the journalists there build their career by being a maverick known for investigative journalism?
One man? If you are just trying to sound dramatic, sure. However, I'd urge that you go and actually read more about how CCP works and the actual reaction of Chinese people on Weibo and other Chinese social media. The reaction to NBA and Hong Kong is not merely the government's manipulation, tho I'm sure there are some being done.
When people see the news and make a judgement, it's often times the judgement the media want you to make. I'll give you another video about Hong Kong protesters for a different perspective: https://youtu.be/ZPYuGYLesx0
This video by no means represents all of the protesters, but I hope people here can see the same event from different angles.
Happy to see Apple caught in such a difficult situation. They insist on being the sole arbiter of what software a user is allowed to install on their device, so this is their burden to bear. They could at any point give up their walled garden approach to iOS, but they won't, so they're dragged into this impossible situation of appeasing CCP or appeasing the rest of the world.
FWIW I'm happy they've chosen to allow the app (although at first they didn't), but the whole situation really brings the consequences of controlling a user's device to light. I hope it changes.
I've always accepted their walled-garden philosophy as a security measure, but you know, I'm realizing that it doesn't have to be either-or. They can continue to hold App Store listings to high standards of security and quality, and I'll continue to use it when that's what I want, while allowing people the option of side-loading at their own risk. Most of the problems with malicious apps on Android don't happen because of side-loading, they happen because of Google's terrible moderation of the Play store.
The trouble is that if you provide a mechanism to side-load, people will be convinced to use it without understanding the risks they are taking. See also the recent issues with MDM. In that sense, it kind of is either/or for the average user.
ps: I truly believe most of people here talking about Hong Kong have no idea how Hong Kong works before and after CCP. I found it both sad and amusing, but often time I found myself stupid when posting on the Internet. But anyhow, the facts should be delivered.
Sorry if this sounds rude, but why does it matter if HK was more or less democratic before 1991? The protesters are not asking for a return to British rule.
In the same vein, the United States is vastly more democratic than it was a 100 years ago. That does not mean the democratic process does not need additional improvement; there are critical things worth protesting today.
The unfortunate part is not WHAT the protesters are asking, it is about HOW the protesters are asking. For those who were only watching from the western mainstream media, you are missing out on some footage of the whole picture. E.g) You may have seen police beating up protesters, but you were not told that police were beaten by surprise from behind. You may have seen police fire warning shot with lethal weapon, but you were not told that police chased by mob of angry protesters who were wielding metal rod at a police who fell on floor. You may have seen police shot a protester who was later identified as a high school student, but you were not told that a mob of angry protesters were wielding sharpened metal rod, hammer and wrench on another police who were chased, jumped on and fell on floor in front of him. You may have heard police shot a 14 years old on the street and then being set on fire by petrol bombs but you were not told that he was surrounded by mobs of protester in his car before, being assaulted from behind after he stepped out and beaten up on the ground by surrounding mobs with metal rods. You may have seen police shooting tear gas and rubber bullets at crowds, but you were not told that police were launched by bricks, metal rods, slingshot, petrol bombs or metal road sign from the bridge above their head. You may have seen "pro-China" citizens removing stickies and posters on wall, but you were not told "pro-China" citizens were beaten up with severe injuries. You may have seen 'pro-China' chanted 'We are all Chinese' beaten up by protester, but you were not told that he was being spied on his personal cellphone by the so-called 'reporters' and a western 'reporter' blocked his way out by shutting the door in front of him. Unless you can understand Cantonese, you definitely were not told that many citizens were famed for attacking reporters or females, beaten severely and unconsciously only because they expressed different opinions in the public or taking picture of protesters vandalizing public properties / stores / banks. You would not be told that professors were locked up and surrounded by mob of angry students only because he expressed different opinions on social media. You would not be told that many high school students were trained or encouraged by their teacher to set fire on the street or fight against police. You may have read a female lose an eye and accused of police weaponry, but you were not told that the same girl whom assisted by the opposition party filed an objection to police to obtain her medical record for investigation to proof her claim. Unless you can understand Cantonese, you would not be told that protesters are always asking others to open their umbrella to shield themselves from being recorded when they are vandalizing properties or beating up people with different opinions. You may have been told that they are fighting for their freedom, but you were not told that none of their already owned freedom were taken away. You may have been told that they are fighting for their 'future', but you were not told that they are very willing to sacrifices the 'present' of many families who were still making a living nor the 'past' of those who contributed to the society.
It is not true that all actions from the police are justifiable. But at the same time, HongKongers youth are definitely smart nowadays, they know exactly the interests of the western media. Hence they will always play nice with 'reporters' from different colors and always portray themselves as the victims in many incidents.
It's not weird. Apple reversed their decision and allowed the app on the App Store. Now they are facing veiled threats from Chinese state media for doing the right thing.
How is that not weird? The posts from yesterday were after the app had already been approved and released. And, unless someone has a source that says otherwise, it seems very likely that the app rejection was automatic and had nothing to do with the political implications being ascribed to it.
Readit News
If I were Tim Cook I'd be real worried about being shut out of my own supply chain right about now.
You're not wrong, but if people see that China is willing to shutdown someone as big as Apple, then they'll know that everyone else (who is probably smaller) stand no chance at all. People may start re-evaluating the (economic / supply-chain) risks they're will to take at that point.
It'd basically undermine the entire economic model that has led to China's rise out of poverty over the past 30-40 years.
And Apple is such a high profile company that it would likely cause an international incident.
As I recall, buying local brands instead was framed as patriotism.
Didn't Apple start ramping up iPhone production in India recently? I agree that China is likely to retaliate but I imagine whatever decision making process there was for approving this HK app involved plenty of lawyers and analysis of potential fallout.
The Chinese value stability, and that big of a dislocation would have a negative impact on their stability.
I’m sure they can pressure them, but extreme measures would be reserved for cases where a company has crossed a line that cannot be in-crossed.
Why not already do it instead of taking the risk allowing Western companies undermining their state ideology? Does Apple transfer technology to them and they needed that?
I don’t see them easily recovering, in the PR sense after kicking Apple out. They are already in the defensive posture with HK protests, which they saw get out of hand. Concentration camps for Muslim minorities is a terrible PR disaster. If anything Apple is in a good position to squeeze more concessions and handouts out of them at this point. Even, say make a publicity stunt about opening a factory in Vietnam or moving it back to US.
The CCP isn't going to compromise on its core authoritarian and nationalist values over a piddling concern about the unemployment caused by one Western company leaving. Apple's not that important, and my guess is the problems caused by the trade war dwarf any effect Apple could cause.
Also, I doubt they like Apple much anyway, and they would probably welcome the disruption to Apple that it would experience during a pullout. Might create opportunities for Huawei or Oppo.
Deleted Comment
Dead Comment
With that said, is that enough for China to care at all? a little? a lot? Meaning, I wouldn't be surprised if China would forgo plenty of jobs from Western companies as their economy matures. Especially if China fully boycotted Apple, I doubt many other US Companies would respond at all
Many of those companies are showing themselves to be spineless right now
Edit: according to Wiki, the US DoD is the largest employer in the world at 2.1M employees.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers
They'd seize the factories and continue production, at least for the medium term. It makes no sense economically, but it keeps Xi in power.
To Beijing, the factories are valuable for (a) IP and (b) jobs. Apple walking deprives China of (a), but not (b), not in the short term.
Either way, 4.8 million people + friends/family, being angry is not a small number. China's population is ~1.3 billion according to CIA world fact book. So it's certainly less than 1% of the population, but not insignificant.
The shutdown of Samsung’s last China phone factory comes after it cut production at the plant in the southern city of Huizhou in June and suspended another factory late last year, underscoring stiff competition in the country.
The South Korean tech giant’s ceased phone production in China follows other manufacturers shifting production from China due to rising labor costs and the economic slowdown.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21143405
Dead Comment
First group doesn't really have a choice and the second group has no interest in an iPhone.
>“Providing a gateway for ‘toxic apps’ is hurting the feelings of the Chinese people, twisting the facts of Hong Kong affairs, and against the views and principles of the Chinese people,”
It's a way to say something is bad without saying anything about it.
Toxic is subtext that directly speaks to people (Chinese) wondering "what should I do?" => don't use it, don't even approach it or look at it (it's toxic).
It's idiomatic and quite explicit, in subtext, in this context (Chinese gov stuff).
Dead Comment
If looking weak to Westerners was ever on CCP's priority list, it couldn't have been anywhere high.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/05/31...
Plus, their hardware is overpriced for what you get.
I genuinely have a hard time understanding the appeal. It seems to have the Gucci brand name, maybe integrations but I don't feel this is lacking on Android, and maybe privacy but I don't trust Apple for privacy.
Deleted Comment
Which similarly, it also happens on the other part of the world? E.g) US? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/06/nyregion/waze-nypd-locati...https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/28/382013185...
> HKMAP helps residents comply with the wishes of law enforcement (who communicate their demands by colored flags quickly raised in the dark).
> …[the app] doesn't contravene any Hong Kong law that I am aware of. This app helps answer questions like "will I get shot with a bean bag round if I come out of this MTR station, because the police raised a colored flag I can't see".
—Maciej Ceglowski, the American who runs the Pinboard bookmarking service, who has been in Hong Kong for a while now, to follow the protests.
Thread about how the app works, and how it keeps non-protesters safe: https://twitter.com/pinboard/status/1179233936582565888
About the use of tear gas and bean bag rounds: https://twitter.com/pinboard/status/1181790019943452675
Helpful and sassy comment.
US is not gonna ban Google or Waze.
China might actually ban Apple tomorrow. There are no courts to appeal. There is no retort. Just the decision of one man.
When people see the news and make a judgement, it's often times the judgement the media want you to make. I'll give you another video about Hong Kong protesters for a different perspective: https://youtu.be/ZPYuGYLesx0
This video by no means represents all of the protesters, but I hope people here can see the same event from different angles.
Edit: fix typo
A lot of Chinese people have iPhones. Are you just going to hack all of them or replace all of them over night?
Dead Comment
FWIW I'm happy they've chosen to allow the app (although at first they didn't), but the whole situation really brings the consequences of controlling a user's device to light. I hope it changes.
ps: I truly believe most of people here talking about Hong Kong have no idea how Hong Kong works before and after CCP. I found it both sad and amusing, but often time I found myself stupid when posting on the Internet. But anyhow, the facts should be delivered.
In the same vein, the United States is vastly more democratic than it was a 100 years ago. That does not mean the democratic process does not need additional improvement; there are critical things worth protesting today.
It is not true that all actions from the police are justifiable. But at the same time, HongKongers youth are definitely smart nowadays, they know exactly the interests of the western media. Hence they will always play nice with 'reporters' from different colors and always portray themselves as the victims in many incidents.
It got through the approval process recently.