I worked for a VoIP startup an hour north of Miami. They got bought for $300M.
I got to live in one of the owner's mansions, by myself. It had nine bathrooms.
Oddly enough, you hear a lot of French there. From the Haitian taxi drivers to the Snow Birds from Quebec. You can buy good Quebecois beer at some stores.
Miami itself is pretty nice. Reminds me of Vancouver and San Diego. Not a big fan of Cuban food, but the nightlife is top-notch. Beach scene is cool if you like beaches. It's pretty hot, but everything has crazy good A/C. Can fly to the Bahamas/Bermuda/St. Barth's whenever you want. Cheap flights up the East Coast too.
It helps to have a car, though they have a seemingly underused elevated public train. It's a good place to bike, as there are essentially no hills.
Regarding taxes, I was paying essentially the same income tax + payroll tax in Florida as I do in British Columbia (though BC has pretty low taxes). Plus free healthcare in Canada. Gas, booze, smokes are basically half the price in Florida as Canada though.
On the bad side...
Peeps are a little shallow, though there is an okay arts community. Not exactly an intellectual climate. I'm sure it can be found, but I didn't.
Palm Beach is a weird fucking place. Richest zip code in America (or was at the time I was there). West Palm Beach was the per-capita murder capital of America. Cops on the bridges to keep the homies out. Lots of boarded-up shops in West Palm during the height of the boom in 2008. Didn't make sense.
There were three murders (of rich white people) that I heard of during the year I was there. The locals are poorly educated, but there are lots of bright imports from around America that make it interesting.
So if you like your artsy, intellectual coffee-shop community of San Fran or Seattle, Miami might not be for you. But if you like clubbing at nights and laid-back days, it's pretty good.
This have changed a lot, specially in the Wynwood / Design District / Midtown area (3 of Downtown's neighborhoods).
And I gonna be the first one to say it I think... I remember during PyCodeconf 2 years ago many of the attendees from SF were really impressed by the amount of women here (beautiful ones) that even the most introverted (I am one of those) can find someone here. For girls too, also, since people are really obsessed with fitness here. That's pretty shallow but hey we didn't come out with Tinder ;-) you guys did.
The fun time we have at nightclubs (now there are many hipster bars and venues) is really unmatchable, I went out 3 times this week (it's just friday night) and the places were still going hard at 5am, not only that, there are places that close very late and open early (Will Call, from 12pm to 7am) or open at 3am (Mekka and Space). I might sound like a party guy but I'm not, this is very typical of Miami.
I'm not gonna tell you, you can find smarter people here, since that would be a lie, but artsy people? Probably, and very good looking.
About the affordability, I live in front of Bayfront Park (the biggest park in Downtown, walking distance from AAA) the apartment is beautiful, and the building is like living in a hotel, pool (with a bar and full staff), gym, spa, all that for only $1650 (and my neighbors pay a lot less, I'm just a bad negotiator), check it out: http://www.vizcayne.com/
West Palm Beach used to be a lovely working and middle class area (I lived there a half century ago), but it is now the destination for many of the region's Haitian immigrants. They've unfortunately brought many of the same problems that plague Haiti, including poverty and serious gang violence.
I stayed in West Palm Beach for one night recently and my rental car (a brand new Chrysler 300C) was "keyed" on every single body panel while parked overnight at a hotel.
Your description is good, and I've lived in South Florida for most of my life so I'll add to it.
SF Bay Area vs South Florida
Food: I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Cuban food is awesome and it's the best South FL has to offer. Everything else is on the meh side. Almost every other metro is better with SF, LA, and NY being a lot better.
Weather: unless it's the late fall or early winter, it's really hot and humid, even at night. Yes parts of the Bay Area get hot, but it's not paired with humidity. Heavy humidity makes breathing feel heavier, as well as making you sweat a lot from just walking for 10 minutes outside. I still remember seeing some steam leaving our heads after some pickup basketball games. To make things worse, in some seasons mosquitos will be carrying some awful diseases like encephalitis so you'll need to wear long sleeves at night. In south Fl, prepare to have electric bills over 200-300 or even more depending on the size of your house. Not using air conditioning will make you miserable. Really the only place enjoyable outside is on the water.
Bay Area weather on the other hand is like having air conditioning outside. My relatives from FL always marvel at it whenever they visit.On the bright side you have more time to prepare for a hurricane than you do for an earthquake.
Outdoor Leisure: The ocean is where South FL and Miami really shine. Unlike the cold murky waters of the Bay Area, in South FL the ocean waters are crystal clear. Any watersport like surfing or scuba diving is way better. (On that note watch out for sharks. Due to damage to the environment, shark attacks in south fl has risen dramatically over the years with surfers being injured the most) However, due to erosion most of South FL's beaches are really just crushed rock and concrete which sucks. For real sand, you need access to either a private beach, an unpopular park to the north, or an island park reachable only by boat. Fishing in the ocean is great.
Everything else outdoorsy in South FL really sucks due to the humidity. Biking, camping, and hiking are just not as enjoyable as the Bay Area or even New York. There's no Tahoe nearby either. Though Disney World is way better than Disney Land. It also doesn't help that insects and spiders are a really big problem in south FL. Even indoors it's much worse than any other place in the US that I'm aware of (imagine an ant infestation within 5-10 minutes of dropping a few crumbs of food... Fl is also the spider capital of the world.)
Intellectual Community: South FL and Miami have a virtually non-existent one, as opposed to the Bay Area or NY. If you want that in the Southern US, you'll have to go to either Austin or the Atlanta metro instead. Conversation just isn't as good here compared to other major metros.
Nightlife: Miami beats the Bay Area hands down in this department in both quantity and quality. Though it gets old when you're not single.
General Stuff to do: I've always felt that there's a lot more going on in the Bay Area, Ny, and LA. Conversely there's not as much to do in south fl or Miami which is one reason people start families at a much younger age there.
Crime: Even though the stats are similar I always felt that crime is Miami is worse for one reason: really horrible crime can happen almost anywhere and at anytime (or at least that was my impression).
Cost of Living: South FL and Miami are significantly cheaper than the Bay Area even without factoring in the lack of state income tax. Of course you have also have to factor in the major business and job opportunities as well. Even though the startup scene is much better now, I still feel the biggest opportunities in South FL are real estate, food, and health / medical. As for the cost of real estate, you have to factor in the "snow birds" from the north east buying seasonal homes, so it's not as cheap as it should be though still a lot cheaper than the Bay Area
Misc: Although not required, it's wise to be fluent in Spanish in Miami. You also need a car for Miami and south FL. It's too inconvenient otherwise.
Crystal clear is a bit of an overstatement for the water in South Florida. Did you know Miami Beach closes for a day or two every year because the level of fecal matter in the water is too high? It's still kind of murky in South Florida, though The Keys are a bit better. You are a boat ride away from the Bahamas though, and there you'll find very clear water.
Definitely true on the Spanish. More than twice as many people speak Spanish at home than English. (though a lot of the Spanish speakers are bilingual, it's the dominant language in the county)
> It's a good place to bike, as there are essentially no hills.
If you don't value your life, sure. Miami traffic is crazy. If you don't get hit by the Fast & Furious wannabe, you'll get hit by an old lady who didn't stop at the light.
The whole Silicon Valley advantage is fading. I went there back in 1997 when it was very hard to find technical jobs in my country (Canada) because a lot of those kinds of jobs gravitated to head office cities for large companies, and many Canadian companies were subsidiaries of large American companies. In Silicon Valley, I learned that most startups fail or are acquired within in a year or so. It's like a lottery. Then I headed to London England, found a job fairly easily and lived there for 10 years or so. Not long ago I returned to Canada, Vancouver this time, and found it loaded with startups and other tech businesses that were more established. Another Canadian city that I am familiar with is Waterloo Ontario and it is in a similar condition. I'm told that Toronto is also overflowing with opportunities both startup and more established stuff. If you are going to play the startup lottery, why not do it among folks you know.
And in case you are wondering what this has to do with Miami, I agree with the OP, just stay home and build your business (startup or otherwise) right there. You still have a ticket in the startup lottery if that is the way you want to go, but just like in SV itself, most of those startups don't last very long.
However, unlike SV, if you stay where you are then you have a better chance of building a normal business that grows incrementally by serving profitable customers, reinvesting profits, and taking a longer term view.
Readers of HN should be very aware that there are startups all over the place, and not just in American cities but in most countries of the world. Silicon Valley just isn't as special as it once was because computers and tech and Internet connectivity is now virtually everywhere that there are cities.
I always find it interesting how a company that takes off and IPOs outside SV seems to gain almost no attention even when they have profits that would dwarf most of the hot startups. I work down the street from a startup that IPO'd a couple years ago for hundreds of millions, does double digits of daily trading on the NASDAQ, and seemingly nobody has heard of. Instagram selling for a billion is cool and all, but there are many companies like this who fly 100% under the radar. If I had to guess, it is probably a focus on B2C vs B2B. (Don't have the source, but I think I read it in Inc. this month) 80% of the startups filing for IPO this year are B2B. Food for thought.
I think it's more what HN specifically pays attention to, than what gets attention in a global sense. My read is that the community here is focused on web-oriented, low-capital, low-time-to-MVP markets (Y Combinator's preferences sort of set the tone, but lots of bootstrappers have similar aims). That tends to make higher-capital, higher-time-to-market, high-R&D or high-sales-touch, slower-growth businesses a bit off the radar here.
I think partly it's that people are inspired by the category of businesses that seem like: given $30k and two years in a garage, I could do that! This requires a particular kind of company, and lots of success stories just don't seem like the kind of thing you could do in a garage, so they aren't part of this particular corner of the Valley mythos. For example, one of the top tech IPOs of 2013 is CDW, a Chicago-based B2B firm that's been slowly growing since 1984 by building partnerships and logistics infrastructure, and is now IPO'ing 29 years later. Totally different kind of company.
I think the location actually matters a bit less. People probably do pay more attention to SF-based companies just because that's where a lot of the startup-sector media is, but companies from elsewhere that fit the model I described also get press, like 37signals (Chicago) or SoundCloud (Berlin). A number of the more prominent HN posters with startups are also from outside the Valley, like tptacek (Chicago) and cperciva (Vancouver).
Is it really under the radar though? If you're aiming for TechCrunch front page then being in SF is probably a much better bet, but beyond that hype bubble you can still do very well. There are certainly talented people all over the country and of course you're going to save money on rent, salaries, and basically everything else if you go outside of San Francisco.
Not having ever founded a company I could be extremely wrong here but my take is that SF could be detrimental to certain startups.. If you have $x saved up to support you while you start a company it's going to last you much longer in basically any other city in the country other than perhaps Manhattan. At that point you basically have to decide which is going to be more of a factor in your success, extra time with which to build your product or physical proximity to an entrepreneurial community? Of course there's no one right answer, but I suspect that for many web-based startups the extra time and savings would be more important than the surrounding environment.
I'm not sure if others have experienced this, but my brain doesn't function very well in tropical heat and humidity. It just seems to slow down, and mental games don't seem as interesting. It may be that I've been conditioned by many episodes of tropical vacations growing up, but whatever the reason, I can't (and indeed, don't really want to) code below about 30 degrees latitude.
Having once lived in Florida, there is a greater culture of AC in the far south than in the far north. I have been more uncomfortable during the summer in Connecticut than I ever was in Florida.
That said, I think there is a mindset to enjoying the heat as well. You should probably not expect to go hiking through the woods in the summer in Florida. It's just not pleasant to be in such places in such humidity with such insects. If you live in Florida, your weekends should be spent at the beach (and please do not call it the shore, it's like calling it soda vs. pop). Sand will get into everywhere and everything, so learning how to deal with sand is a major part of enjoying Florida.
I'm the opposite. My brain works well as soon as I'm no longer shivering. Sweat doesn't phase me too much. It's great for me out here in Phnom Penh, would be too hot/humid for most folks in the long run, but suits me perfectly. Oh yeah, no AC or fan going in my home office here either!
Back north, outside of 2 months of summer you keep having to adjust heating or put on/take off layers of clothing as the time of day progresses, and the slightest shiver gives me a "what is this, I shouldn't have to live this way, I give up, brain shut-down initiated" wave of misery :D hence, tropics suit me best and I do manage to get stuff done here. .
I don't mind sweating at all, as long as I'm wearing swim trunks and nothing else. Sweating at the office, wearing underwear, pants, and a t-shirt - that rises to the top of my conscious mind, poking me repeatedly.
I'm sure most start ups in Miami have A/C, so I'm not sure what your concern is. Most apartments too.
Anyway, I live in an area that reaches 43c in the summer and -6c in the winter. When I first moved here it definitely threw me off, but I got acclimated to it quickly.
As someone who grew up in Milwaukee and moved to Charleston, I agree 100%. One of my largest clients is in Milwaukee now and I can say definitively that I have lost all tolerance for that bitter cold. And to all you Canadians living north of the wall... I don't know how you do it.
To show you my agreement with this, I usually go to the beach in end of Sep/early October in the mid-Atlantic. I don't get lots of swimming or sun bathing in, but there's very few people and the early Autumn storms makes the Ocean magnificent (plus all the stores and tourist places want to move inventory out for the off season so lots of cheap activities and things to buy).
Yes, but the effect is not pronounced. I seem to do well in relatively cool, dry environments. The humidity, I think, is what affects me the most. I live in LA, which isn't exactly cold, but the humidity is always low, which makes it comfortable. But when it gets hot, my brain does get sluggish. It's true that AC helps, a lot. :)
I was born and raised in Miami and my family still lives there so I visit quite often. I moved to the Bay Area not too long ago (3 years) for work and IMO it's no comparison.
Miami is a great place to live if your priorities are partying. There are excellent night clubs and beautiful men and women everywhere.
The Bay Area holds an advantage over almost every point the OP made.
Rent is ~$2k for a 2 bedroom 2 bath if you want to live in a nice area in Coral Gables that isn't full of roaches, or was built in the 1940s and has dwarf-sized rooms. Rent is about the same in the peninsula. If you want to purchase it's a whole different story however. What costs ~$1m here is ~$300k there and probably in a lot better shape.
Food is a push. I must say the Bay Area probably offers a larger variety of food. Miami is mostly all Caribbean and Central/South American food which is excellent but not as varied as the Indian, Mediterranean, Afghan, Thai you see out here.
The neighborhoods are even more awesome here in the Bay Area. I say this because the strangers I meet on the street are a lot nicer than the strangers in Miami. There's a unique, wonderful, and rich history to the cities and towns in the Bay Area and there are a lot of neat places to explore like the Open Space preserves out West or the forrest in Santa Cruz. The only mountains in Florida are the smelly trash ones.
The Developer ecosystem pales in comparison. It's not even close and it won't be for a while. There are very little tech companies out there and no real major players. While it's very nice to see it blooming the reality is that it's still in its infancy and if you're moving out there just for the tech you're doing it wrong.
The weather. It's just terrible. It's like a sauna all the time. It feels like you're breathing in liquid water sometimes and it's difficult to make it from your house to your car (which will be a scorching inferno) without sweating.
The only great things Miami has that I truly miss is the water; it is beautiful and warm.
I moved from San Diego to Miami two years ago. For anyone seriously thinking of coming to Miami from California, I'd like to reiterate a few points.
* Miami is a great place to live if you prioritize partying. If you don't -- or are past that stage in your life -- you are going to find fewer people with things in common than in any other city I've lived.
* If we are generalizing...people are ruder and quicker to screw you over if the opportunity presents itself. And before you say it, no, it's not just because it's a big city. It's different here. It's worse here.
* South Florida drivers are statistically the worst in the country. Luckily I don't have to commute.
* Food is a push, I agree. I really miss the Asian-fare back home. Thankfully, I've found one really awesome Thai place to keep me sane.
* I don't participate in the tech market, as I work remotely for a CA based company.
* The neighborhoods downtown are not awesome. I live across the street [0] from OP and would not feel comfortable walking even a block east with my wife at night. Miami has
* The weather is really subjective. At first, I struggled with the humidity and heat. But now I love it. That and the water are probably the things I love most about Miami.
And I HATE it down here, Sure, the weather is nice (most of the time). And when the beaches aren't sinking (Miami Beach is flooding all the time now) they'll fun. But they get old fast.
Miami is a party town. Period. If you're into it then you're gold.
Traffic is a nightmare. It takes 90 mins to get from the center of Miami to Fort Lauderdale (about 30 miles) in the middle of the week day.
The food.. Fort Lauderdale does have a bit more variety, bit it's basically Cuban, Haitian, and other Latin cuisine. Lucky for me I love it. But I tell ya,. I have yet found a decent Chinese restaurant. I have found decent Thai - and that search took me through 15 different restaurants and over a year.
There is some great American cuisine here. And of course, we have every single fast-food place you know off on EVERY corner.
South Florida is car culture. I mean even in Whole Foods (the closest we can get to decent food shopping) - it's all "nameste" inside but folk will cut your heart out in the parking lot. I've seen fights break out in the Whole Food parking lot. Usually between two perfectly groomed women; their babies sitting in harness hanging off their shoulders.
There a HUGE amount of stress living in Florida. Between the driving, the walled up homes, beaches sinking, the right wing government not giving a shit - which reminds me - if you have kids you best plan on private school. There are REALLY good ones down here (depending on location). Add the school cost into your budget. I'd never send my kid to public school - the state has ripped public schools to shreds.
Oh and one other thing - this is a Stand Your Ground State. So carry a gun. Many do. Most are concealed.
Now about the tech. It's here. It's small. It really depends on which tech. Microsoft is everywhere. Easy to find Meetups and Technets. Also Ruby is well represented here with 3 groups (Boca, Broward (Lauderdale) and Miami) - I know of one small Python group that barely meets - the rest are hit and miss.
Outside of medical, real estate, tourism, and banking there just isn't much else going on. Sure there are a few start-ups. And people are trying. But they are few and far between. And I'm in Telcom (by the way).
Now all this sour news there are some pluses - the Arts. The formal arts (Opera, Theater, Symphonies - are small. But they are jugging along). But We do have a thriving arts festival (Art Basel - https://www.artbasel.com/) which has really transformed the arts scene in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and the Palm Beaches.
Also Orchids - West Beach is one of the centers for orchid trade in the world (bet you didn't know that). Orchid people are CRAYZ. I love them myself - cause they bring a much need "oddness" to South Florida.
Since you're a native, maybe you can address something subtle: the extent to which the business community favors positive-sum vs zero-sum thinking, and innovation over marketing.
One of the things I like about Silicon Valley is that people are generally focused on creating value rather than making money. (The difference being that I can make money in ways that transfer money from your pocket to mine, without a net increase in value.) But my impression of Florida is that there's a different orientation there.
For example, South Florida is currently the identity theft capital of the US. [1] At least a few years back, a few Florida counties had more spammers than any other country. [2] It seems like the dubious business culture goes back to the scam-heavy Florida land boom in the 1920s. [3] That had an echo in Florida swampland scams in the 60s and 70s. [4] And Miami was one of the worst cities in the recent US property bubble. [5]
Do you notice that difference in business orientation and business ethics?
My general impression is that people in south Florida (in business) are looking for easy money. Not easy as in no work, but easy as in huge sums for minimal work. The homesteading act certainly attracts people from outside Florida who believe they could be sued for everything they've got. May be was a combination of the drug money in the 70s & 80s, along with the real estate boom more recently, but they don't seem very motivated.
A lot of the shadier companies I've been aware of have their offices, or at least mailing addresses, in Boca Raton. Others have agreed with me on this point. Especially in the internet advertising market you have all kinds of strange players.
I hear a lot of complaints about the ultra rich in NYC. If you have a $50 million apartment in Manhattan, when your walking down the street it doesn't matter. You enter a building, even if its an expensive one, who knows what your living in. If your being driven around in a Maybach no one cares. In South Florida, its more like LA, lots of wealth flaunting.
Before the real estate crash, these high end luxury condos were brand new and not cheap (well, still cheap compared to SF.) The boom basically created the infrastructure, subsidized by a bunch of greedy people, ironically. The reason some of these buildings still are cheap is because banks won't lend for them. (that is changing)
I lived in South Florida for 5 years, and have lived in the Bay Area since 1986, and you have described what I consider one of the essential differences between the two places. There was an article in a local business magazine or the business section of the paper when I was living in South Florida about the new CEO of the local power company (Florida Power and Light). The new CEO was quoted as saying that one of his mantras is, "The customer has my money in his pocket; how do I get it?" which was presented as a good mantra to have; and the CEO was presented as a man to be admired.
Being the (unofficial) world headquarters of a large industry that does more good than harm probably contributes greatly to making the Bay Area a good place for people like you and I to live (although it is good to remember that being the world headquarters of another such industry did not protect Detroit from becoming what I consider a very bad place to live).
P.S. your history should probably mention the time in the 1970s when South Florida was the cocaine-smuggling capital of the US.
I was raised in Miami and my family lives there still as well! We should meet up some time and complain about Miami together, haha. I agree with all the points you made.
Miami has quite a shallow population. I've also found as time goes on that as I develop new interests, there is poor community around most of them--the little things like rock climbing or playing ping pong. It's even extremely difficult to find a coffee shop to work out of when I visit family.
When he said the weather is nice for the winter and also pretty OK most of the summer I just had to wonder. I mean, different strokes for different folks but man, that is a totally different yardstick than how I measure weather, and I grew up in Florida.
I'm another South Florida to Bay Area transplant here, and I gotta say, I hate the Bay Area's weather. The winters are cold and rainy (an awful combination), and summer evenings are way too chilly. I'd take Florida weather any day.
I just moved from SF to Miami Beach a month ago. I loved SF but if you have the ability to work from home as I do, financially it does not make sense to stay. I honestly would have preferred to move to Honolulu over here but the only area I liked (Tantalus/roundtop/pacheights) really didn't (at the time) have any nice houses for sale that were under 5 million.
Also, while the cost of living is way down here, so is the income you will get from working a local job. I talked with a few people and there is scant a developer pulling in over 90k here. Compare that to SF where 100k salaries are the norm and it all evens out.
With that said, I like MB/Miami. The tech scene is in its infancy though. I don't believe there is any real institutional venture funds here. Basically, raising a 'A' round is going to be very difficult. You might be able to pull it off with latin american based VC but it will be a struggle.
I will say that the people I have met so far out here have been very nice and welcoming and there is a very good vibe. I am looking forward to building things out here.
Honolulu's cost of living is comparable. Housing costs are slightly lower but food is much more expensive. I make just a little over 90k as a senior engineer and still living pay check to pay check. I probably can make almost double in SF from talking with other engineers I know there so it may be better for me to move.
I did an internship at IBM's Boca Raton site back in '95, where Microsoft used to work with IBM on OS/2 and NT. There used to be a much more vibrant tech scene in that area in the 90s, before everything moved to....Texas.
I used to work in Boca Raton in 03-05. The tech scene is very much financial services based. I would say most of the SFla tech is financial services. Not the actual stock market, but mortgages, banking, and refi, and normalized payments (the monthly income you would get from winning the lottery or lawsuit).
I was a game beta tester at that IBM site in 96, later called T-REX. $17/hr for a 16yo was way better than anything McDonalds would pay.
No state income tax. (A HUGE advantage)
Lots of business.
Some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.
Stunning winter weather.
Gorgeous beaches/parks/neighborhoods.
International culture.
Walkable neighborhoods near downtown.
Some of the best restaurants I've ever been to.
Emerging startup scene.
Vibrant arts/design/culture scene.
Year round biking/jogging/swimming/etc.
Lots of money (including international).
Can fly non-stop anywhere.
Decent mass transit.
Lots of wonderful highrise communities in town.
Cons:
Horrendous traffic.
The worst drivers I've ever seen.
Everything generally overpriced.
Some of the rudest people you'll ever meet.
Generally horrible service.
Lots of blight.
Hot summers (but oddly, no worse than most of the northeast).
Lots of competition for living/shopping/going out/etc.
Too much crime/not enough enforcement.
Party scene is played out (Too loud, not as pretty as you think you are)
The drivers are an interesting point. People in Miami drive way too aggressively. In Texas, I found the opposite in Austin. People here are passive to the point where it's dangerous. Someone will come to a full stop slamming on their breaks from about 40 MPH because they got scared of merging onto the highway fairly regularly.
I hate the drivers down here (I live in Miami).
People couldn't care less about others in the transit. You are lucky if people let you change lanes.
When I moved here I bought a brand new camaro... on the third day I got a big dent on the passenger's door. A month later there were three already, even with all my attempts to park as safe as possible from other cars.
lol @ 'not as pretty as you think you are' - I think there is so much shallow beauty here you sometimes get desensitized. Your sense for quality people gets honed and you start to gravitate towards each other (if your genuinely looking). Hence why there is an strong but not well known intellectual and art culture here. The visibility is growing though, thanks to places like http://thelabmiami.com/
Lower Florida Keys resident here. I still own a place in Orlando which I have only visited once in the 6 years I've been gone. I got tired of hearing gunshots in the middle of the night. Between that and the chaotic (and plentiful) highway drivers, you couldn't possibly pay me to live in most (any?) large cities in mainland Florida. Despite being only 120 miles from Miami, I've still never visited, unless you count traffic jams when trying to get through it.
Once you get away from the urban nightmares, Florida isn't so bad though. Admittedly not everyone likes the climate, but I run a few miles every morning, even in the summer, and getting on a boat helps to cool off. No malls or dance clubs, and almost no big-box stores or fast food. But we do have Amazon Prime and a fishing pole.
Big difference between Miami and the Keys is you probably have to evacuate every time there's a hurricane warning. Besides I always thought of the Overseas Highway through all of the Keys as a death trap. If the oncoming traffic swerves into your lane, you have no where to go but water. It used to be way worse before it was rebuilt too.
Suburban Miami wasn't bad at least... I certainly don't remember any gunshots growing up there. Now if you lived near Overtown, West Perrine, Goulds, etc. then yeah, you had to deal with gunshots. Same with every major city though.
Did someone flip the street signs on me? I live in downtown Orlando and love the atmosphere. Plenty of meetups, cheap rent in and around the skyline, great nightlife, tons of big name concerts and great local shows every night of the week.
Gainesville on the other hand seemed to be mostly a bunch of drunken undergraduates. Cool if that's your scene, but outside of Grooveshark there didn't seem to be much of a tech community, and very little in the way of the fine arts.
I agree with Orlando. Half-agree with Gainesville. G'ville is fantastic if you have kids or are a kid. From 20-35 it's sort of a "Why am I here?" wasteland.
Because I'm unable to sell it unless I bring a large cashier's check to closing. It's more underwater than a submarine, even though I bought it in 2003 with 10% down. Till then, it rents (barely) profitably. Welcome to central Florida real estate.
I made the decision a long time ago that people come first. Comparing the people of San Francisco to those of Miami, well, in this case you get what you pay for. I feel like a rock star wild man anywhere else. In San Francisco I feel like I'm surrounded by people smarter, more creative, and better at life than me. That's worth every penny.
I'll take a hovel in SF over a mansion in Miami any day.
Besides, the defense of Miami in this article stinks of all that is wrong with America - that it's filled with great places to consume. Don't get me wrong, I love my fancy hipster bars, restaurants, and shops - but those aren't what makes SF the best city for me.
San Francisco attracts people who want to do Big Things. It attracts people with technical and business smarts. I do not think it follows, though, that it attracts people with general life smarts or, as you put it, people who are "better at life." The sort of strike-it-rich personalities that are drawn to the San Francisco gold rush are not always the same personalities that are conducive to good old-fashioned happiness and contentment. And it's certainly going to attract a lot of people who will put work and Big Things over the raising of a family.
The implication of this post is that people in Miami are dumber, less creative, and "worse at life" than those in San Francisco.
The population of Miami is around 410,000. When someone tries to "comparing the people of X", where X is a population of 410,000, I think the bigger insight is to be gleaned from the writer's preconceptions than their conclusions.
San Francisco is a magnet for talented, ambitious, creative, brilliant, audacious people. It's hard to argue against this, and by accepting that as true, you must also accept the clear corollary - that there are proportionally more of those extraordinary people in San Francisco and fewer in Miami. And yes, that makes huge difference.
While it may not be politically correct to say that one city is "dumber, less creative, and 'worse at life'," it seems to be politically fine to say San Francisco is filled with creative, smart, "good at life" people. Of course, those statements are logically equivalent, so it's really just politics you are arguing.
If only there were some way we could compare large groups of people. Maybe we could have a federal agency that does that. It sounds pretty useful; maybe we should put that in the constitution.
Snark aside, 26% of Miami has Bachelor's degrees. San Francisco county is 51%. Marin, 54%. San Mateo county, 46%.
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I got to live in one of the owner's mansions, by myself. It had nine bathrooms.
Oddly enough, you hear a lot of French there. From the Haitian taxi drivers to the Snow Birds from Quebec. You can buy good Quebecois beer at some stores.
Miami itself is pretty nice. Reminds me of Vancouver and San Diego. Not a big fan of Cuban food, but the nightlife is top-notch. Beach scene is cool if you like beaches. It's pretty hot, but everything has crazy good A/C. Can fly to the Bahamas/Bermuda/St. Barth's whenever you want. Cheap flights up the East Coast too.
It helps to have a car, though they have a seemingly underused elevated public train. It's a good place to bike, as there are essentially no hills.
Regarding taxes, I was paying essentially the same income tax + payroll tax in Florida as I do in British Columbia (though BC has pretty low taxes). Plus free healthcare in Canada. Gas, booze, smokes are basically half the price in Florida as Canada though.
On the bad side...
Peeps are a little shallow, though there is an okay arts community. Not exactly an intellectual climate. I'm sure it can be found, but I didn't.
Palm Beach is a weird fucking place. Richest zip code in America (or was at the time I was there). West Palm Beach was the per-capita murder capital of America. Cops on the bridges to keep the homies out. Lots of boarded-up shops in West Palm during the height of the boom in 2008. Didn't make sense.
There were three murders (of rich white people) that I heard of during the year I was there. The locals are poorly educated, but there are lots of bright imports from around America that make it interesting.
So if you like your artsy, intellectual coffee-shop community of San Fran or Seattle, Miami might not be for you. But if you like clubbing at nights and laid-back days, it's pretty good.
And I gonna be the first one to say it I think... I remember during PyCodeconf 2 years ago many of the attendees from SF were really impressed by the amount of women here (beautiful ones) that even the most introverted (I am one of those) can find someone here. For girls too, also, since people are really obsessed with fitness here. That's pretty shallow but hey we didn't come out with Tinder ;-) you guys did.
The fun time we have at nightclubs (now there are many hipster bars and venues) is really unmatchable, I went out 3 times this week (it's just friday night) and the places were still going hard at 5am, not only that, there are places that close very late and open early (Will Call, from 12pm to 7am) or open at 3am (Mekka and Space). I might sound like a party guy but I'm not, this is very typical of Miami.
I'm not gonna tell you, you can find smarter people here, since that would be a lie, but artsy people? Probably, and very good looking.
About the affordability, I live in front of Bayfront Park (the biggest park in Downtown, walking distance from AAA) the apartment is beautiful, and the building is like living in a hotel, pool (with a bar and full staff), gym, spa, all that for only $1650 (and my neighbors pay a lot less, I'm just a bad negotiator), check it out: http://www.vizcayne.com/
SF Bay Area vs South Florida
Food: I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Cuban food is awesome and it's the best South FL has to offer. Everything else is on the meh side. Almost every other metro is better with SF, LA, and NY being a lot better.
Weather: unless it's the late fall or early winter, it's really hot and humid, even at night. Yes parts of the Bay Area get hot, but it's not paired with humidity. Heavy humidity makes breathing feel heavier, as well as making you sweat a lot from just walking for 10 minutes outside. I still remember seeing some steam leaving our heads after some pickup basketball games. To make things worse, in some seasons mosquitos will be carrying some awful diseases like encephalitis so you'll need to wear long sleeves at night. In south Fl, prepare to have electric bills over 200-300 or even more depending on the size of your house. Not using air conditioning will make you miserable. Really the only place enjoyable outside is on the water.
Bay Area weather on the other hand is like having air conditioning outside. My relatives from FL always marvel at it whenever they visit.On the bright side you have more time to prepare for a hurricane than you do for an earthquake.
Outdoor Leisure: The ocean is where South FL and Miami really shine. Unlike the cold murky waters of the Bay Area, in South FL the ocean waters are crystal clear. Any watersport like surfing or scuba diving is way better. (On that note watch out for sharks. Due to damage to the environment, shark attacks in south fl has risen dramatically over the years with surfers being injured the most) However, due to erosion most of South FL's beaches are really just crushed rock and concrete which sucks. For real sand, you need access to either a private beach, an unpopular park to the north, or an island park reachable only by boat. Fishing in the ocean is great.
Everything else outdoorsy in South FL really sucks due to the humidity. Biking, camping, and hiking are just not as enjoyable as the Bay Area or even New York. There's no Tahoe nearby either. Though Disney World is way better than Disney Land. It also doesn't help that insects and spiders are a really big problem in south FL. Even indoors it's much worse than any other place in the US that I'm aware of (imagine an ant infestation within 5-10 minutes of dropping a few crumbs of food... Fl is also the spider capital of the world.)
Intellectual Community: South FL and Miami have a virtually non-existent one, as opposed to the Bay Area or NY. If you want that in the Southern US, you'll have to go to either Austin or the Atlanta metro instead. Conversation just isn't as good here compared to other major metros.
Nightlife: Miami beats the Bay Area hands down in this department in both quantity and quality. Though it gets old when you're not single.
General Stuff to do: I've always felt that there's a lot more going on in the Bay Area, Ny, and LA. Conversely there's not as much to do in south fl or Miami which is one reason people start families at a much younger age there.
Crime: Even though the stats are similar I always felt that crime is Miami is worse for one reason: really horrible crime can happen almost anywhere and at anytime (or at least that was my impression).
Cost of Living: South FL and Miami are significantly cheaper than the Bay Area even without factoring in the lack of state income tax. Of course you have also have to factor in the major business and job opportunities as well. Even though the startup scene is much better now, I still feel the biggest opportunities in South FL are real estate, food, and health / medical. As for the cost of real estate, you have to factor in the "snow birds" from the north east buying seasonal homes, so it's not as cheap as it should be though still a lot cheaper than the Bay Area
Misc: Although not required, it's wise to be fluent in Spanish in Miami. You also need a car for Miami and south FL. It's too inconvenient otherwise.
Definitely true on the Spanish. More than twice as many people speak Spanish at home than English. (though a lot of the Spanish speakers are bilingual, it's the dominant language in the county)
http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/...
If you don't value your life, sure. Miami traffic is crazy. If you don't get hit by the Fast & Furious wannabe, you'll get hit by an old lady who didn't stop at the light.
And in case you are wondering what this has to do with Miami, I agree with the OP, just stay home and build your business (startup or otherwise) right there. You still have a ticket in the startup lottery if that is the way you want to go, but just like in SV itself, most of those startups don't last very long.
However, unlike SV, if you stay where you are then you have a better chance of building a normal business that grows incrementally by serving profitable customers, reinvesting profits, and taking a longer term view.
Readers of HN should be very aware that there are startups all over the place, and not just in American cities but in most countries of the world. Silicon Valley just isn't as special as it once was because computers and tech and Internet connectivity is now virtually everywhere that there are cities.
I think partly it's that people are inspired by the category of businesses that seem like: given $30k and two years in a garage, I could do that! This requires a particular kind of company, and lots of success stories just don't seem like the kind of thing you could do in a garage, so they aren't part of this particular corner of the Valley mythos. For example, one of the top tech IPOs of 2013 is CDW, a Chicago-based B2B firm that's been slowly growing since 1984 by building partnerships and logistics infrastructure, and is now IPO'ing 29 years later. Totally different kind of company.
I think the location actually matters a bit less. People probably do pay more attention to SF-based companies just because that's where a lot of the startup-sector media is, but companies from elsewhere that fit the model I described also get press, like 37signals (Chicago) or SoundCloud (Berlin). A number of the more prominent HN posters with startups are also from outside the Valley, like tptacek (Chicago) and cperciva (Vancouver).
Not having ever founded a company I could be extremely wrong here but my take is that SF could be detrimental to certain startups.. If you have $x saved up to support you while you start a company it's going to last you much longer in basically any other city in the country other than perhaps Manhattan. At that point you basically have to decide which is going to be more of a factor in your success, extra time with which to build your product or physical proximity to an entrepreneurial community? Of course there's no one right answer, but I suspect that for many web-based startups the extra time and savings would be more important than the surrounding environment.
That said, I think there is a mindset to enjoying the heat as well. You should probably not expect to go hiking through the woods in the summer in Florida. It's just not pleasant to be in such places in such humidity with such insects. If you live in Florida, your weekends should be spent at the beach (and please do not call it the shore, it's like calling it soda vs. pop). Sand will get into everywhere and everything, so learning how to deal with sand is a major part of enjoying Florida.
I grew up on the Gold Coast. I love sand. :)
Back north, outside of 2 months of summer you keep having to adjust heating or put on/take off layers of clothing as the time of day progresses, and the slightest shiver gives me a "what is this, I shouldn't have to live this way, I give up, brain shut-down initiated" wave of misery :D hence, tropics suit me best and I do manage to get stuff done here. .
Anyway, I live in an area that reaches 43c in the summer and -6c in the winter. When I first moved here it definitely threw me off, but I got acclimated to it quickly.
Not quite so far south, great weather, big city amenities, even lower cost of living, fiber to the home...
Miami is a great place to live if your priorities are partying. There are excellent night clubs and beautiful men and women everywhere.
The Bay Area holds an advantage over almost every point the OP made.
Rent is ~$2k for a 2 bedroom 2 bath if you want to live in a nice area in Coral Gables that isn't full of roaches, or was built in the 1940s and has dwarf-sized rooms. Rent is about the same in the peninsula. If you want to purchase it's a whole different story however. What costs ~$1m here is ~$300k there and probably in a lot better shape.
Food is a push. I must say the Bay Area probably offers a larger variety of food. Miami is mostly all Caribbean and Central/South American food which is excellent but not as varied as the Indian, Mediterranean, Afghan, Thai you see out here.
The neighborhoods are even more awesome here in the Bay Area. I say this because the strangers I meet on the street are a lot nicer than the strangers in Miami. There's a unique, wonderful, and rich history to the cities and towns in the Bay Area and there are a lot of neat places to explore like the Open Space preserves out West or the forrest in Santa Cruz. The only mountains in Florida are the smelly trash ones.
The Developer ecosystem pales in comparison. It's not even close and it won't be for a while. There are very little tech companies out there and no real major players. While it's very nice to see it blooming the reality is that it's still in its infancy and if you're moving out there just for the tech you're doing it wrong.
The weather. It's just terrible. It's like a sauna all the time. It feels like you're breathing in liquid water sometimes and it's difficult to make it from your house to your car (which will be a scorching inferno) without sweating.
The only great things Miami has that I truly miss is the water; it is beautiful and warm.
* Miami is a great place to live if you prioritize partying. If you don't -- or are past that stage in your life -- you are going to find fewer people with things in common than in any other city I've lived.
* If we are generalizing...people are ruder and quicker to screw you over if the opportunity presents itself. And before you say it, no, it's not just because it's a big city. It's different here. It's worse here.
* South Florida drivers are statistically the worst in the country. Luckily I don't have to commute.
* Food is a push, I agree. I really miss the Asian-fare back home. Thankfully, I've found one really awesome Thai place to keep me sane.
* I don't participate in the tech market, as I work remotely for a CA based company.
* The neighborhoods downtown are not awesome. I live across the street [0] from OP and would not feel comfortable walking even a block east with my wife at night. Miami has
* The weather is really subjective. At first, I struggled with the humidity and heat. But now I love it. That and the water are probably the things I love most about Miami.
[0] : http://www.flickr.com/photos/bdesimone/8761046729/
If you have any questions... ask away.
And I HATE it down here, Sure, the weather is nice (most of the time). And when the beaches aren't sinking (Miami Beach is flooding all the time now) they'll fun. But they get old fast.
Miami is a party town. Period. If you're into it then you're gold.
Traffic is a nightmare. It takes 90 mins to get from the center of Miami to Fort Lauderdale (about 30 miles) in the middle of the week day.
The food.. Fort Lauderdale does have a bit more variety, bit it's basically Cuban, Haitian, and other Latin cuisine. Lucky for me I love it. But I tell ya,. I have yet found a decent Chinese restaurant. I have found decent Thai - and that search took me through 15 different restaurants and over a year.
There is some great American cuisine here. And of course, we have every single fast-food place you know off on EVERY corner.
South Florida is car culture. I mean even in Whole Foods (the closest we can get to decent food shopping) - it's all "nameste" inside but folk will cut your heart out in the parking lot. I've seen fights break out in the Whole Food parking lot. Usually between two perfectly groomed women; their babies sitting in harness hanging off their shoulders.
There a HUGE amount of stress living in Florida. Between the driving, the walled up homes, beaches sinking, the right wing government not giving a shit - which reminds me - if you have kids you best plan on private school. There are REALLY good ones down here (depending on location). Add the school cost into your budget. I'd never send my kid to public school - the state has ripped public schools to shreds.
Oh and one other thing - this is a Stand Your Ground State. So carry a gun. Many do. Most are concealed.
Now about the tech. It's here. It's small. It really depends on which tech. Microsoft is everywhere. Easy to find Meetups and Technets. Also Ruby is well represented here with 3 groups (Boca, Broward (Lauderdale) and Miami) - I know of one small Python group that barely meets - the rest are hit and miss.
Outside of medical, real estate, tourism, and banking there just isn't much else going on. Sure there are a few start-ups. And people are trying. But they are few and far between. And I'm in Telcom (by the way).
Now all this sour news there are some pluses - the Arts. The formal arts (Opera, Theater, Symphonies - are small. But they are jugging along). But We do have a thriving arts festival (Art Basel - https://www.artbasel.com/) which has really transformed the arts scene in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and the Palm Beaches.
Also Orchids - West Beach is one of the centers for orchid trade in the world (bet you didn't know that). Orchid people are CRAYZ. I love them myself - cause they bring a much need "oddness" to South Florida.
One of the things I like about Silicon Valley is that people are generally focused on creating value rather than making money. (The difference being that I can make money in ways that transfer money from your pocket to mine, without a net increase in value.) But my impression of Florida is that there's a different orientation there.
For example, South Florida is currently the identity theft capital of the US. [1] At least a few years back, a few Florida counties had more spammers than any other country. [2] It seems like the dubious business culture goes back to the scam-heavy Florida land boom in the 1920s. [3] That had an echo in Florida swampland scams in the 60s and 70s. [4] And Miami was one of the worst cities in the recent US property bubble. [5]
Do you notice that difference in business orientation and business ethics?
[1] http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-02-26/business/fl-iden...
[2] http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2005-05-08/news/0505070596_...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_land_boom_of_the_1920s
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swampland_in_Florida
[5] http://us.spindices.com/indices/real-estate/sp-case-shiller-...
A lot of the shadier companies I've been aware of have their offices, or at least mailing addresses, in Boca Raton. Others have agreed with me on this point. Especially in the internet advertising market you have all kinds of strange players.
I hear a lot of complaints about the ultra rich in NYC. If you have a $50 million apartment in Manhattan, when your walking down the street it doesn't matter. You enter a building, even if its an expensive one, who knows what your living in. If your being driven around in a Maybach no one cares. In South Florida, its more like LA, lots of wealth flaunting.
Before the real estate crash, these high end luxury condos were brand new and not cheap (well, still cheap compared to SF.) The boom basically created the infrastructure, subsidized by a bunch of greedy people, ironically. The reason some of these buildings still are cheap is because banks won't lend for them. (that is changing)
Being the (unofficial) world headquarters of a large industry that does more good than harm probably contributes greatly to making the Bay Area a good place for people like you and I to live (although it is good to remember that being the world headquarters of another such industry did not protect Detroit from becoming what I consider a very bad place to live).
P.S. your history should probably mention the time in the 1970s when South Florida was the cocaine-smuggling capital of the US.
Miami has quite a shallow population. I've also found as time goes on that as I develop new interests, there is poor community around most of them--the little things like rock climbing or playing ping pong. It's even extremely difficult to find a coffee shop to work out of when I visit family.
Check out Panther Coffee in Wynwood or Miami Beach: http://www.panthercoffee.com/
Next time you're in Miami give me a shout: @bunsen
Also, while the cost of living is way down here, so is the income you will get from working a local job. I talked with a few people and there is scant a developer pulling in over 90k here. Compare that to SF where 100k salaries are the norm and it all evens out.
With that said, I like MB/Miami. The tech scene is in its infancy though. I don't believe there is any real institutional venture funds here. Basically, raising a 'A' round is going to be very difficult. You might be able to pull it off with latin american based VC but it will be a struggle.
I will say that the people I have met so far out here have been very nice and welcoming and there is a very good vibe. I am looking forward to building things out here.
I paid $1,600/month a few winters ago for basically a wooden shack with tin roof and high speed internet (across the street from V-land).
Nice work/life balance, code, surf, code, surf, woohooo ;-)
I was a game beta tester at that IBM site in 96, later called T-REX. $17/hr for a 16yo was way better than anything McDonalds would pay.
Pros:
Cons:When I moved here I bought a brand new camaro... on the third day I got a big dent on the passenger's door. A month later there were three already, even with all my attempts to park as safe as possible from other cars.
Email me (email in profile) and we'll figure something out.
(Thanks for the great post.)
Once you get away from the urban nightmares, Florida isn't so bad though. Admittedly not everyone likes the climate, but I run a few miles every morning, even in the summer, and getting on a boat helps to cool off. No malls or dance clubs, and almost no big-box stores or fast food. But we do have Amazon Prime and a fishing pole.
Suburban Miami wasn't bad at least... I certainly don't remember any gunshots growing up there. Now if you lived near Overtown, West Perrine, Goulds, etc. then yeah, you had to deal with gunshots. Same with every major city though.
Gainesville on the other hand seemed to be mostly a bunch of drunken undergraduates. Cool if that's your scene, but outside of Grooveshark there didn't seem to be much of a tech community, and very little in the way of the fine arts.
Unless you REALLY love the Gators.
Mind if I ask why you still own the place?
I'll take a hovel in SF over a mansion in Miami any day.
Besides, the defense of Miami in this article stinks of all that is wrong with America - that it's filled with great places to consume. Don't get me wrong, I love my fancy hipster bars, restaurants, and shops - but those aren't what makes SF the best city for me.
The population of Miami is around 410,000. When someone tries to "comparing the people of X", where X is a population of 410,000, I think the bigger insight is to be gleaned from the writer's preconceptions than their conclusions.
While it may not be politically correct to say that one city is "dumber, less creative, and 'worse at life'," it seems to be politically fine to say San Francisco is filled with creative, smart, "good at life" people. Of course, those statements are logically equivalent, so it's really just politics you are arguing.
Snark aside, 26% of Miami has Bachelor's degrees. San Francisco county is 51%. Marin, 54%. San Mateo county, 46%.
Source: US Census, by way of http://chronicle.com/article/Attainment-Interactive/125995/