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Posted by u/xrd 4 months ago
Ask HN: What's the best hackable smart TV?
I want to get a second TV which will more or less be a second monitor for my System76 laptop which is plugged into a bunch of music equipment, like a korg midi keyboard, and a novation drum pad, all of which work great with linux.

I want to buy this TV used. I'm seeing a bunch of Samsung, LG, RCA, Sony, etc on Facebook Marketplace. What a cesspool Facebook has become, right?

Any suggestions on the best brand or even model for that kind of thing? I don't really want to battle with a bunch of shit that tries to coerce me to install another app from a streaming provider slash gambling entrypoint.

I imagine mostly it will just need HDMI to work, and all the TVs will support that. But, I thought maybe there would be a fun brand that offers interesting other options.

paulgerhardt · 4 months ago
Do recommend the LG C series (C5 or C4 are new or the C1 series if you want a deal on classifieds - same hardware as the higher end models but needs a firmware bit flip). The OS is very rootable and it makes a great TV that doubles as a monitor. Supports free sync / g-sync. OLED is nice at this scale.

Text is very readable, refresh rate is good. It uses the same panels as the fancier G series in the larger sizes. One can root the firmware to make it go brighter. (Though this is screen works well in medium or dimly lit rooms. It does not shine in very bright rooms).

Plenty of YouTube videos singing the C series praises as a TV / Monitor.[1] LG webOS is also trivial/friendly to root in developer mode and network control of the tv is a nice to have.

Would avoid Samsung. I love the matte on the Frame and the design of the Serif but the OS is frustrating / impractical to root.

[1] https://youtu.be/Qtve0u3GJ9Y

aljgz · 4 months ago
I Second avoiding Samsung. I had an LG, had to let it go to my ex, and got a Samsung because the rtings said it has a better color space coverage. The quality in the out of box experience is day and night. Samsung does every trick to take you to the homepage to show you ads. Even when using as a monitor, will analyse your content and phone home to use in showing you more "relevant" ads. I disconnected it from the rest of the world completely. If I could sell it for 70% of the price, I would, and would get an LG again.
godelski · 4 months ago

  > I Second avoiding Samsung.
I'll third this, as a Samsung owner who uses it as primarily a monitor. My "favorite" feature is that when I use an app like Netflix and then press the "Exit" button on the remote there's a 50% chance I just land back on my desktop and a 50% chance that the menu that covers the bottom third of the screen is open. It can also frequently not find the signal of the computer, maybe 1 in 50 times. Sometimes it'll connect in a few seconds, sometimes a few minutes, sometimes after replugging the HDMI, and sometimes updating the screen by doing things like pressing buttons that would cause something to change (my computer neither hybernates nor goes to sleep). Not to mention that it frequently will ask me to update the terms of service (I cannot reject them, I can only select "remind me later" and it starts to get aggressive) and it will change some settings when it force updates on me.

Do not get a Samsung...

baby_souffle · 4 months ago
Another +1 for LG but it's worth mentioning that there are a few things that a TV firmware does that you don't necessarily want in a Monitor. Simple example: most TVs will stay on _forever_ with the "no signal" image bouncing around... but a proper monitor will interpret that as a sign that the PC has gone to sleep so the monitor should, too.

I have not looked into hacking the firmware to change this behavior but if there's a "custom rom" out there that can do this, I'd appreciate a link!

One of the best things about LG in general is their serial port. It's hit/miss which of their models will have it exposed on the back, but if yours does, the protocol is well documented and is very simple.

My LG TV (used as a monitor) is really chatty on the network and so I keep it disconnected so I don't get periodic interruptions from little overlays telling me that $someApp has been updated and needs me to agree to new terms (yes, really!).

To re-gain remote control for automation, I use the serial port. I have an ESP32 connected to a mmWave sensor for active "at desk?" detection. This is integrated with Home Assistant which knows which PC my KVM is pointing to and if it's on or not. This lets me re-implement basic "if not at desk and no PC is on, put the display to sleep" automation.

My biggest complaint is more of an ecosystem issue; why is DisplayPort not common on TVs? Because this TV-As-A-Monitor is HDMI only, my KVM has to be HDMI and so does every PC that's hooked up. Would have been a lot nicer if the whole chain could be display port :/.

rxyz · 4 months ago
on Windows, LG TV Companion fixes the sleep issue
rcarmo · 4 months ago
I second this simply because LG is the least evil of all smart TV manufacturers _and_ has the best panels and (usually) connectivity.
IshKebab · 4 months ago
Less evil than Sony? I have an LG TV. I can't recommend it purely because they have the audacity to omit a play/pause button from the remote control. Pausing requires pressing the "centre" button one, two or three times depending on which app you are in. Pure insanity.

WebOS is trash too.

Probably going to buy a Sony next time.

bsimpson · 4 months ago
I think LG made the 5K iMac panels.
esperent · 4 months ago
> same hardware as the higher end models but needs a firmware bit flip

I have a C1, and I got the technician's remote to try this. But it didn't work in my case - it seems that only some of them use the same hardware, probably based on supply chain needs. Still though, amazing screen. Takes a bit messing around with picture settings (there's some good guides online) but I've never found the "TV" parts to get in the way, just connected it via HDMI, put it in PC mode, disable wifi, and it's good to go. I guess I've been using it around 4 years now.

The only serious issue is the shininess of the screen. It's not terrible but I did have to rearrange my office a bit to make sure it wasn't facing a window.

kelthuzad · 4 months ago
I bought the Samsung Frame TV and I love it, but you're correct about Samsung's OS (it's sluggish, filled with ADs and by far the worst TV OS that I've used so far)
BozeWolf · 4 months ago
Contrary experience from me: i hate my samsung frame, especially because of the ads. And more especially because of that samsung tv channel which autostarts. And I hate it even more because these ads change the menu in such a way that you cannot navigate it blindly because it inserts itself as a button mid way in the menu bar. You cannot disable or disable those things easily. Built in airplay is unstable.

Bought and connected an apple tv, always switch on the tv with that. Most problems solved.

batrat · 4 months ago
Ads? I thought HN crowd already know how to use a pihole or at least adguard dns. I got Samsung TV's in every room because they are easy to use with a Galaxy phone, using it as a remote and a keyboard. Also wireless DEX is soooo underrated. Want a specific app on tv? no problem. I'm basically using them as displays for my phone.
zdware · 4 months ago
++ for the LG homebrew community. The homebrew store literally has an app now that will auto refresh your dev token so your TV doesn't go out of devmode and uninstall all of your home brew. Used to have to setup a cron job to renew/refresh dev mode.
matheusmoreira · 4 months ago
Is rooting just for homebrew or can I get rid of all the advertising and dark patterns?
dsp_person · 4 months ago
all the methods to root have been patched in the latest webos version :(
tgtweak · 4 months ago
Even the USB key .mp3 homebrew?
zeusk · 4 months ago
> same hardware as the higher end models but needs a firmware bit flip

Is this firmware bit flip known? couldn't find anything off google.

DavideNL · 4 months ago
iguessthislldo · 4 months ago
I have one of them (don't remember which number) and OLED part is very nice. I haven't done anything with the TV itself, but I forked an old library (https://github.com/iguessthislldo/libLGTV_serial) to control it remotely through serial and Home Assistant without connecting it to my WiFi. I originally set this up for a much older 1080p LG TV, and was able to use it with a newer one with a few modifications.

edit: Apparently I specially have C3PUA according to the model data I added. Also if anyone is interested in this, I can update the README because I didn't change it after I forked it.

whalesalad · 4 months ago
I have a C2 OLED and it is a really nice TV. I've never connected it to the internet or tried to root it though. It behaves as a simple no-frills display.
mmastrac · 4 months ago
I am curious if the Cx series has the same issue as my B2 where Dolby Vision (Atmos?) seems to kill the video processing circuitry and requires me to power-cycle it.

Apparently the only fix is to disable it in your source, but it works like 75% of the time and I'd hate to lose the excellent picture quality of Netflix and YouTube via Google TV.

tracker1 · 4 months ago
Worth trying are a different cable, and maybe a different source depending on your setup... my previous AVR had pretty consistent issues against my TV that I constantly had to soft power off and on to work around, it only happened when using the ARC port. On another setup, it turned out to be an issue with the cable.

YMMV.

lossolo · 4 months ago
I have CX, works without issues here. I'm watching raw .mkv and .mp4 files with DV, HDR and Atmos.
michalf6 · 4 months ago
I was looking for a 40-43in 4K TV for PC monitor use, considered the LG C series, but it wouldn't work in my bright room.

I went with Samsung QN90C instead and I'm super happy with it. It's very bright, fights glare well, and there's Jellyfin for it.

kjkjadksj · 4 months ago
How much pause should oled burn in give you though? Both from the buying used perspective and using as a secondary monitor where there might be fixed ui elements?
adabyron · 4 months ago
I really wish there were alternatives for the millions of us out there who love the Frame concept but hate the Samsung OS.
jdhawk · 4 months ago
Hisense Canvas and TCL NXTVISION
xer0x · 4 months ago
Thanks that's great to know! I've got one to tinker with.

Deleted Comment

hamdingers · 4 months ago
For "fun and interesting" consider an LG WebOS TV. Many can be rooted[1] which allows installing a homebrew channel[2] of unauthorized apps or writing your own.

I initially did it for Jellyfin before they made it into the official app store, but the Moonlight game streaming app has unlocked many hours of entertainment.

1. https://cani.rootmy.tv

2. https://www.webosbrew.org/

bryceacc · 4 months ago
This is also the coolest thing you can do for a rooted webOS tv:

https://github.com/satgit62/How-to-Install-and-set-up-Ambili...

doesn't need to go through another device to capture the HDMI, it's built right in!

Retr0id · 4 months ago
Second-coolest has got to be https://repo.webosbrew.org/apps/org.webosbrew.custom-screens... ("Bouncing DVD logo" screensaver)
bsimpson · 4 months ago
I had a spare pair of Hue lights that I mounted behind my Android TV. Bummer I can't use Hue Sync on built-in streaming apps.

Only time they get used is when I'm playing Fortnite. I had Huenicorn set up for NixOS, but I haven't bothered trying again in SteamOS.

stavros · 4 months ago
Moonlight is really fantastic. It's worked better than Geforce Now for me. Amazon's thing worked best, but they don't have as many games as my Steam does.
zdware · 4 months ago
Moonlight is great, but be careful about overestimating how fast video decoding is. I would get 10-40ms additional latency, jitter doing moonlight from tv, vs running it on Linux on my mini PC homelab hooked up to the TV, my decoding/network latency was like 1-2ms for a frame
diggan · 4 months ago
Are you using it over Ethernet or WiFi? I remember I tried Moonlight to a local computer two or three years ago over Ethernet and the latency was still too bad, any ideas if that's better today?
postexitus · 4 months ago
Only older models that have not been upgraded to latest webos.
A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 · 4 months ago
Can confirm and will add that depending on what model you get, webos UI is a breath of fresh air compared to other heavyweights ( like samsung ).
jp191919 · 4 months ago
Great..... another rabbit hole to go down. I have an LG CX and I never knew I could root it. Glad I never gave it internet access.
andrepd · 4 months ago
Unfortunately it still spies on you if you connect to the web :S

I guess you can mitigate that if you use something like a pi-hole? I do wish there was a solution using root/devmode to block ads (or better yet, run in whitelist mode!).

hamdingers · 4 months ago
You're correct on all points.

However, if you do have an pihole/adguard home, this list does get rid of all the ads: https://gist.github.com/d4kine/b2458cc9d693d7d36193be0247094...

matt_heimer · 4 months ago
I have Sony Bravia TV that has Android TV so I went looking for the docs to confirm you can enable developer mode, access adb, and sideload apps. While looking at the docs I discovered I can load HTML5 apps from USB! I never knew that but I'm going to do some experimentation in the near future.

https://pro-bravia.sony.net/develop/app/getting-started/inde...

cosmic_cheese · 4 months ago
It’s difficult to do better than Sony for an Android TV. Their Android build is one of the most junk-free out there. The newer ones can also use their internal speakers as a center channel when external stereo speakers are hooked up (giving dialogue a boost) which is pretty cool.

I use mine as a dumb TV but the built-in smarts are serviceable.

imp0cat · 4 months ago
There is also a Sony Bravia integration for Home Assistant (using the REST API that's in almost all Bravia TVs).

https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/braviatv/

slipperybeluga · 4 months ago
YMMV. it's never worked well for me. works great for the first week, then it stops connecting or i suddenly have several zombie bravia devices, all of which aren't connected.
slipperybeluga · 4 months ago
best thing i ever did with my bravia was install a custom launcher via adb to finally rid myself of the endless ads, upsetting news, and terrible suggestions constantly shoved in my face without my consent. nice to be able to uninstall the misc bloat that you can't get to with the gui and just have a simple interface. all i want is to access jellyfin and maybe one or two other apps. much better all around experience now.

here's a nice reference for a lot of the stuff installed on bravia that you can elect to remove via adb:

https://github.com/therealhoodboy/skinny-bravia

agile-gift0262 · 4 months ago
OMG! thank you! I was unaware this was possible. I can't stand the fact that my expensive TV came with ads built-in. I use it in "only apps mode" so at least the only ad id showed is the top third of the screen one, but not the "recommended" content tiles. I'll do this instead once I go back home
RajT88 · 4 months ago
Craigslist an older 1080p TV. People are getting rid of old "dumb" TV's, and sometimes you can get them free. I see seemingly undamaged LCD TV's out by garbage bins all the time. I sourced one such a TV for my wife for $100 a few years ago to use as a monitor - works great. No apps or anything - dumb as they come.
gruez · 4 months ago
You're missing out on resolution (4K) and picture quality (HDR, contrast ratios, color gamut) improvements by doing this.
MyOutfitIsVague · 4 months ago
My experience with HDR has been pretty abysmal on a $500 4K TV. Badly tuned HDR is way worse than no HDR at all.

I have 20/20 vision, and I really can't tell the difference between 1080p and 4K for video games and movies. I will never do below 4k again on a desktop, but 1080p is more than fine for a TV. Higher framerate makes a far bigger difference than higher resolution for video games too.

Atomic_Torrfisk · 4 months ago
Yes, but I think you are missing out on the part where it is close to free. I have a nice monitor for photos and other crap, but most of the shit I do is text. I do not need 4k.
RajT88 · 4 months ago
If I (like my wife) was going to use a TV as a monitor at her desk, I would definitely want a 4k monitor. Up close, that is a video wall, with no need of window scaling.

Such as it is, I use 3x 1080p displays. It's fine for me, and approximates a larger curved super-wide display (while also being cheap). She does just fine with 1080p resolution however - rarely has more than 2-3 windows on screen at a time.

PenguinCoder · 4 months ago
Good. Some of us don't need or want those things.
squarefoot · 4 months ago
When those are needed, digital signage displays are the answer. They're more costly unfortunately but can be bought used and are guaranteed to work 12-18-24/24 in much less friendly environments than a living room. They're increasingly making use of Android or WebOS, unfortunately, but being aimed at the professional world they lack all those annoyances and the general crap the industry crams into home TVs.
reaperducer · 4 months ago
You're missing out on resolution (4K) and picture quality (HDR, contrast ratios, color gamut) improvements by doing this.

Not everyone suffers from FOMO.

I've only seen one movie that was worth the bother and expense of seeing it in 4K (Rear Window).

The rest of the things you mention are mostly for a very small slice of theoretical people with perfect vision in perfectly lit rooms at the perfect height and viewing angle.

Beyond icons on a sticker checklist, they mean nothing to the 99% of people who just want to watch sportsball or eat popcorn while watching Disney films with their kids.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but most people are still watching pigs.

cheschire · 4 months ago
HDR is a mixed bag on PCs, and 4K comes at a system performance cost. OP said this was intended to be a monitor.
shayway · 4 months ago
Be warned, 'seemingly' is a key word there. I have picked up eight TVs up from alleys over the past few years and each has had a broken screen only visible when plugged in. I have no idea how people are breaking so many TVs.
RajT88 · 4 months ago
I can help: Children.

I can remember when the Nintendo Wii came out, and people I know were damaging things when the remotes would go flying. It's like the Wii release every day in a house with kids. My brother-in-law is on their third TV in 5 years.

jqpabc123 · 4 months ago
I bought a Hisense model from Costco and set it to "store mode".

For all practical purposes, it is just a dumb HDMI display attached to my computer.

otterley · 4 months ago
Are you able to adjust its picture settings when it's in store mode?
jqpabc123 · 4 months ago
No. Brightness and contrast are maxed out but it's not bad with a cheaper model.

My opinion --- in some cases, the difference between expensive and cheap boils down to the picture controls being intentionally limited for marketing effect.

So the cheap model maxed out looks like the more expensive model at medium. People can recognize the difference in the store so they opt for the more expensive one. But the actual displays themselves are virtually identical.

It may actually be cheaper to make one grade of display and differentiate using the controls.

mongol · 4 months ago
What does store mode do?
hamdingers · 4 months ago
It disables smart features and many of the settings making it more like a dumb HDMI screen.

This may seem like a good thing, but it also usually enables a "vibrant" postprocessing picture mode, motion smoothing, and maximum brightness so the display looks good in a well lit big box store. Unless your viewing environment is similar (or you don't care so much) that's probably not what you want.

jimt1234 · 4 months ago
This is interesting to me. I never heard of "store mode". Is that common for "smart TVs" these days? My interest here is for my elderly mother who tries to watch TV, but her current LG is constantly bombarding her with notifications for software updates, recommendations and ads. It's very frustrating for her; it's to the point where she's afraid to turn on the TV.

I want a TV for her that will power-on directly to YouTube-TV, and that's it, nothing else, no notifications, nothing.

elmean · 4 months ago
It lobotomizes the TV
chatmasta · 4 months ago
Why does it need to be a TV? Why not a monitor? I don’t know why we even differentiate between the two of them these days… basically the only difference is that a TV might have an IR receiver for a remote.

I’d go with a basic monitor and factor out the “smart TV” into whatever device you prefer – Apple TV, Chromecast, Firestick, any SBC with Kodi loaded onto it… an Xbox… why couple the smart features to the display?

robertakarobin · 4 months ago
I had the same thought but found there are very few TV-size monitors on the market, and the ones there are cost an arm and a leg. There are also very few "dumb" TVs -- we finally got one by Insignia, Best Buy's store brand, which has been fine. If someone knows a better alternative please let me know!

Worth clarifying that when I was a kid "TV-size" meant anything above 13", but the times have changed considerably. :)

whitehexagon · 4 months ago
I bought a decent 4k monitor to go with my 4k media box, and the required 4k cable, but wouldnt play because 'for your safety, blocked because not a TV' or some such nonsense, think it was HDCP? Annoying enough for me to cancel 4k paid tv, plus they were busy agressively reducing the broadcast bitrate. Also ended up with a load of bluray 4k discs I cant use, and they wonder why people download stuff.
dreamcompiler · 4 months ago
TVs are much cheaper than monitors. They are produced in larger numbers and their lower price is enabled by spying and advertising.
atmanactive · 4 months ago
Agree, but also, much worse image quality. Put a, for example 32" TV and a monitor one next to each other, set native resolution, put up a screen with a lot of text, and you'll see - the difference is night and day.
dec0dedab0de · 4 months ago
Because I need to be able to plug in an antenna to watch football
raffraffraff · 4 months ago
I got a nice Philips Evnia 43" OLED monitor. 12 years belt that, I bought a 42" 1080p LG monitor. Monitors all the way.
palata · 4 months ago
> Apple TV, Chromecast, Firestick

Those are not exactly hackable, are they?

drnick1 · 4 months ago
Best hackable smart TV should be a Linux box connected to a monitor or to a "smart" TV via HDMI without Internet access. The best thing about this setup is that you can stream Youtube ad-free though clients like VacuumTube. You can also open a browser and head straight to the high seas. Plus countless other things that are arbitrarily restricted or made difficult in locked down environments, all without your viewing habits being sent to the mothership, data brokers, and possibly the government.

The main downside is that there is currently no great "ten foot" UI for this use case on Linux. But the KDE Bigscreen project is being revived and could offer a definitive solution for free TVs.

throwawayk7h · 4 months ago
one should use a mini pc or similar for this; raspberry pi won't handle video so well imo.
drnick1 · 4 months ago
Agreed, I don't have first-hand experience with Pi's, but I have seen reports that they struggle with 4K playback, even at 30fps. An advantage of the Pi however is that it supports HDMI-CEC.
gdulli · 4 months ago
What does hackable mean in this context, and what's the downside of any old smart TV not connected to the internet and the input left on your laptop, where you'd never see anything having to with the manufacturer's app OS?
MisterTea · 4 months ago
Most TV's today are actually giant Android computers. I opened a friends TV a few years back to try and examine a back light issue and to my surprise there were just 3 small PCB's in the TV: Power supply, LCD driver/interface, and the video input board that contains an Arm SoC. The PSU had a small harness that ran to the other two boards and the SoC board had a ribbon cable to the LCD panel.

The Arm SoC is the real interesting part here as it also has WiFi and Blue Tooth interface, Ethernet, and USB port(s). They're like a giant black box Raspberry Pi. If we could get our hands on the SoC datasheet then its possible we could flash that SoC to run whatever OS we want and actually have a Smart TV instead of a spyware and malware vector. Though I am sure no TV maker would ever let the plebs disable their money making spying and data exfiltration schemes.

futhey · 4 months ago
I'm being pedantic but I liked your comment. Most TVs today are giant ARM computers, ~95% of TVs ship with ARM Cortex but only about 35% have some variant of Android.

Most LED backlights are wired in such a way that when one LED fails it bricks a significant portion of the panel backlight. You'll knock out entire rows or huge portions of neighbor backlight LEDs when one fails. Basically it's a cheap way to ensure a whole row of LEDs are the same brightness but the tradeoff is one LED fails and it looks like 5% of your screen went dark.

It seems like a good beginner-intermediate thing that'd be approachable to learn with a basic multimeter and beginner level soldering skills.

gruez · 4 months ago
>If we could get our hands on the SoC datasheet then its possible we could flash that SoC to run whatever OS we want and actually have a Smart TV instead of a spyware and malware vector

Surely it's more straightforward to buy a SBC yourself and plug that into your TV? Even if you could flash it, dealing with random SoC/hardware seems not worth the hassle compared to shelling out $50-200 for a SBC that you picked and can be carried between TVs? Flashing third party ROMs like lineageos makes sense because there's no real alternative for smartphone hardware, but the same isn't true for smart TVs.