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Posted by u/rafram 2 months ago
Show HN: Report idling vehicles in NYC (and get a cut of the fines) with AIapps.apple.com/us/app/idl...
New York City has this cool program that lets anyone report idling commercial vehicles and get a large cut of the fines [1]. It's been in the news recently [2].

I've filed a few reports, and I found the process frustrating and error-prone. The forms are fiddly, there's way too much information that needs to be copied down from the video by hand, you have to use a third-party app to take a timestamped video and a different app to compress it before uploading, and approximately none of it can be done on your phone — the device you probably used to record your video in the first place.

I built Idle Reporter to make filing complaints into a five-minute process that you can do entirely from your phone.

Idle Reporter uses AI to automatically extract all the required information and screenshots from the video and fill out the form for you. It compresses your video, adds the required screenshots, and uploads the whole thing to DEP. All you have to do is log in, give it a final check, and submit.

The AI features cost me money to run, so I put those behind a subscription ($5.99/month, which can pay for itself after a single report). There's a one-week free trial so you can test it out. All the other features — including a fully-featured timestamp camera, which other apps charge for, and an editor for filling out the forms manually and submitting in a single step — will be free forever, as a service to the community.

The app is iOS-only for now — part of this was an exercise in learning SwiftUI in my spare time.

Check it out on the App Store and let me know what you think!

[1]: https://www.nyc.gov/site/dep/environment/idling-citizens-air...

[2]: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-city-idling-law-report...

hiAndrewQuinn · 2 months ago
This is a phenomenal application of how fine-based bounties can be used to rapidly improve compliance with the law. Incredible work. I would absolutely use this if I lived in NYC; I'll recommend it to my friends there.
mhuffman · 2 months ago
>This is a phenomenal application of how fine-based bounties can be used to rapidly improve compliance with the law.

This type of thing can get out of hand quickly. Without me giving controversial examples, just imagine for yourself the types of things that different states can make a crime, add a fine, then offer to give other citizens part or all of that fine if they turn in others. After that, think of how unscrupulous businesses could use it against competition.

hiAndrewQuinn · 2 months ago
Compliance with the law is a separate issue from the contents of the law. If switching to a fine-based bounty system like this suddenly causes an uproar over a given law, then I submit the proper thing is to look over that law and perhaps tear it down. Any "law" that people put up with because it isn't enforced 9 times out of 10 is little more than a tax upon those too honest to get away with it.

As for businesses using it against one another in competition: Same deal, I think that's an excellent thing. If this idling law causes NYC businesses to shift en masse to faster loading and unloading practices because their competitors are watching them like hawks, I don't think that's a bad thing.

overfeed · 2 months ago
> just imagine for yourself the types of things that different states can make a crime, add a fine, then offer to give other citizens part or all of that fine if they turn in others

You mean if a red state (like Texas) potentially handing out bounties for snitching on abortions? Texas already passed that law in 2022[1]. We are already way down the slippery slope you alluded.

1. https://www.npr.org/2022/07/11/1107741175/texas-abortion-bou...

potato3732842 · 2 months ago
You're actually better off if it's a crime because then you can force the issue to go through a court, be made public record, etc.

A lot of civil penalties carry fines in excess of what you get for a first offense for a violent but not professional criminality type crime. It's absolutely insane. NYC's idling laws are just the tip of the iceberg in this regard. And the fact that these are "civil" penalties means the due process requirements are basically nil and when they do exist (like they do for traffic infractions) they basically only exist so far as they need to to keep the racket going.

Like you'd be hard pressed to wind up with tens of thousands of of fines doing actual criminal stuff, they'd just throw you in jail. But a government official can notice (or be tipped off to) some violation then go look back at their info sources and decide unilaterally when the violation started and fine you for presumed months of violation and you often have no recourse but to sue.

reverendsteveii · 2 months ago
One needn't imagine. Texas's strange attempt to twist civil law such that providing or facilitating an abortion is an injury to anyone who claims it is (and is thus a cause of action where the "injured" person can sue the person providing or facilitating the abortion) has taken this discussion out of the theoretical. Regardless of where you stand on whether abortion should be allowed, the idea that anyone who performs one is liable to the first person to notice that they did is an intentional perversion of civil law.

Or if you need to avoid the a-word because of the particular fruit that falls from that tree when shaken, just look at predatory towing.

btown · 2 months ago
I think an important wake-up call is that bounties now exist in an ecosystem where people who would normally be indifferent to wanting/knowing how to collect bounties, could be driven by techniques from the predatory-gambling-app world into becoming gamified enforcers.

We’re already sliding down the slope, to be sure, but this is an acceleration that we should expect with our eyes wide open.

renewiltord · 2 months ago
Yeah, like the ADA for example. We should not have started down that slippery slope. Repeal the ADA!
t0bia_s · 2 months ago
Reminds me a snitchers during communist regime in our country. There was a lot of those who report to STB (state security, like KGB) all kind of misbehaving of citizens that could threat a state.

I'm curious, when there will be apps to report citizens that threat democracy. Like those who wear red hat. Or sleepong on street. Or make weird talks at home...

ffsm8 · 2 months ago
I wish it was was more common around the world. Not just with parking though, but everything in the context of cars.

Like letting the police install a permanent speed trap on your property or even pay for the privilege of them doing so. I'd bet that'd curb a lot of speeding in short order

hiAndrewQuinn · 2 months ago
There's no need for violence. In fact, the capital outlay would be inefficient.

If you want to curb speeding, the solution looks much the same: Pay reporters some portion of the fines collected from the speeder. You will very quickly see a cottage industry of Internet connected dashcams and on-board AI solutions spring up, because it's practically free money if you drive safely yourself for long enough. Pretty soon nobody will be speeding, simply because you never know who or what is watching.

This is a set of economic-legal policies I've been writing about here and there for a long time. It's great stuff.

pimlottc · 2 months ago
“More Dunkin”? Is that an auto correct type for “more common”?
raxxorraxor · 2 months ago
There always has been some kind of problem with any snitching app there was. I don't see how this will be different. I don't think it will see broad adoption, but there will be "power users", who usually pose a problem as well.

I hate people leaving cars idling, but I don't like any form of bounty app. This is the wrong kind of law enforcement.

12ian34 · 2 months ago
What's the problem? Why is this the wrong kind of law enforcement?

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screye · 2 months ago
Amazing !

Decentralizing traffic enforcement is a win-win. Bravo to NYC for opening this sort of program and OP for turning it into an "efficient free market".

Will try it out soon. Bookmarked.

kennywinker · 2 months ago
Fines not linked to income means it’s legal if you’re rich. I’m all for fining polluters to disincentivize pollution, but until we have income-pinned fines i’m not reporting any car under $50k
meepmorp · 2 months ago
poor people idling their engines pollute just as much - or maybe more, depending on average vehicle age, etc. - as rich ones, and poor people are much more likely to suffer the negative consequences of that pollution
dale_huevo · 2 months ago
> Decentralizing traffic enforcement is a win-win

Win-win for who exactly? Maybe we need to decentralize and AI-accelerate construction permit reporting too. Your backyard fence looks DIY and not up to code and your porch light looks like a fire hazard.

perihelions · 2 months ago
They're trialing something like that in France. There's a project that uses machine learning on aerial photography databases to search for objects in peoples' backyards, for enforcement,

https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/30/23328442/france-ai-swimmi... ("French government uses AI to spot undeclared swimming pools — and tax them / The government used machine learning to scan aerial photos of properties")

jen20 · 2 months ago
> Win-win for who exactly?

Society at large? All the people who don't have the breathe the fumes of some garbage commercial vehicle.

> Your backyard fence looks DIY

Provided it's up for code, whether it was "done yourself" or not doesn't matter.

> your porch light looks like a fire hazard.

Absolutely this should be reported.

organsnyder · 2 months ago
Most cities have ways for neighbors to report things like this.
pvg · 2 months ago
We absolutely do that all the time?

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MathMonkeyMan · 2 months ago
It seems the lawyers are making it difficult: https://www.nyc.gov/site/dep/environment/idling-citizens-air...
rafram · 2 months ago
It used to be that as long as the vehicle was on the same block as a school or park, you only had to take a one-minute video (versus three-minute). Now there are some annoying documentation requirements if you want to submit a shorter video.

Doesn’t impact the overall usefulness of the program very much IMO — I just didn’t add special handling for school/park reports like I would’ve before they made that change.

michaelmrose · 2 months ago
Presumably they don't want you taking videos of people who aren't in fact breaking the law and profiting from tickets. NYC regulation requires you to not idle more than 5 minutes.

https://dec.ny.gov/environmental-protection/air-quality/cont...

Although they don't require you to actually take a 5 minute video it is overwhelmingly likely that most people don't pull out there phone every time a vehicle stops in NYC so that most 3 minute videos are liable to be of 5 minute idles.

There are obviously 2 types of problem children cheaters and dummies. It's easier for cheaters to take a 1 minute video since even those who don't intend to idle for any substantial time may pause a moment. For dummies making them actually sit there and film 3 minutes decreases the chance that they will accidentally misunderstand how much time has passed. People are heavily biased towards their own benefits and are liable to miss-perceive 4.5 minutes as 5. Less possible when he pulled out his phone at the 2+ minute mark and now has to wait 3 minutes to have enough.

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wingspar · 2 months ago
In this age of generative AI, how would a someone defend against a maliciously AI generated/altered video report?
bob_theslob646 · 2 months ago
Most of NYC has cameras. The timestamp and location data from those can be linked.

You could also have multiple references to validate via crowdscoring.

You can also find people who are bad actors to decentivize them from mass reporting.

potato3732842 · 2 months ago
a) They won't use AI to fact check reports submitted when those reports stand to make them money.

b) They can't/wont use the dragnet for daily petty revenue enforcement because then people will complain about it and it'll get reigned in and they won't be able to use it for that and all the other things people don't want them using it for.

vineyardmike · 2 months ago
Within the last year or so, I discovered my city’s 311 app, which I’ve become addicted to. I don’t drive, so I’m always walking around the neighborhood, and got in the habit of always reporting graffiti, dumping, illegally parked cars, etc.

This had inspired me to try and make a few apps for civic use, but I discovered that many of the accessible web tools for my city have rules against bots. For example, the city maintains a list of locations and dates where parking is temporarily restricted for short term things like construction, but I can’t scrape it.

I really wish that the government (at any level) made more serviced and data available as APIs or digital formats. The government is usually bad at building/buying websites and services, and I’d have done it for free (or for $0.99 on the App Store).

yodsanklai · 2 months ago
> always reporting graffiti

How does your city deal with graffitis? mine is plagued with graffitis and I can't see how they can be fought. It takes too much resources to remove them in a timely manner and impossible to catch the perpetrators.

renewiltord · 2 months ago
San Francisco does the sensible thing and fines the property owner. This is the just and right thing. In fact, I strongly support putting victims of drunk driving in jail: this strongly disincentivizes driving near drunk drivers.
vineyardmike · 2 months ago
It’s just a game of cat and mouse. I dont think there is a way to “win”, because it’s so easy to make new graffiti, and not practical to try and police and catch people in the act. I think they require private property owners to clean their own graffiti, which really sucks, but makes it more manageable for the city to focus on public areas.

The city really just has a queue of cleanup sites and priorities locations that are high visibility or important, like school yards or transit infrastructure. An elementary school nearby had its mural destroyed by graffiti, and it was cleaned up within a day.

dcsan · 2 months ago
And the cost is often on the small business owner
gametorch · 2 months ago
Yeah, graffiti is a real big problem compared to surveillance tech. Lol.
potato3732842 · 2 months ago
Have you ever even had limited conversed with the other people of your neighborhood to find out if they even agree with you? Maybe they think the cars are fine and like that the graffiti keeps the rent low.
tiagod · 2 months ago
You're addicted to being the neighborhood snitch?

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theptip · 2 months ago
Nice. Pricing seems a bit steep for occasional use; does iOS make it easy to do micro-transactions with Apple Pay? (I get the dev may be trying to put bread on the table with this, which is also fine…)
rafram · 2 months ago
That's a fair point. I have to see how the AI costs stack up, since heavy use can run up the bill pretty quickly with video inputs, and all subscriptions come with unlimited usage.
theptip · 2 months ago
As a user I’d be happy to pay $5 for a bundle of credits and just top up whenever it runs out.

And as you say you don’t want to be in the position where a whale costs you $50 by submitting a crazy number of requests.

Maybe these are big-scale problems though :)

dummydummy1234 · 2 months ago
Wouldn't it make more sense to charge per report?
sumedh · 2 months ago
> Pricing seems a bit steep for occasional use;

I believe most the fines are from small group of dedicated people who actively find offenders.

mannicken · 2 months ago
Just for clarification, I'm not making a phone of any kind, nor do I really feel strongly about this subject. I really kind of wish YC had an option to remove my own comments. For some reason, I always thought you could remove your own comment.

This is probably off-topic for this one, but I feel like enforcing this permanence of speech onto people doesn't make for a good metaphor for normal friendly discussion. I'll write a blog post on it maybe.

globular-toast · 2 months ago
I don't understand people saying it's dystopian. This kind of thing is empowering people who are otherwise suffering from a lack of law enforcement. Motor vehicle operators take huge liberties all the time. Speeding, parking, excessive noise etc. None of these are their rights. They have just been taken at the cost of the rest of society. With great power comes great responsibility. That's how it should work. Stuff like this is just resetting the imbalance, giving power now to those outside of cars to force those inside to take responsibility.