This keeps cropping up. It sounds nice, particularly for nebulously-defined knowledge work. But, the usual:
- this only applies to task-focused jobs; e.g. the service industry still needs people to work all the time customers might turn up
- studies may have picked companies/orgs that are likely to have the foresight and talent to try a new way of working; this may not scale well to general work
- how do companies that have customers that work 5 days a week work this out? Do you need two people working overlapping 4 out of 5 days so they cover all 5 days for every customer-facing role?
- if people can do 5 days' work in 4, can they also do 4 days' work in 3? What's special about 4 days? Will work scope down until it becomes true that it could be done in 3 days, just as 5 days' work seems to have scoped down to be doable in 4?
> - if people can do 5 days' work in 4, can they also do 4 days' work in 3? What's special about 4 days? Will work scope down until it becomes true that it could be done in 3 days, just as 5 days' work seems to have scoped down to be doable in 4?
My suspicion is that the time spent per week at work or 'doing' work is no longer the limiting factor for productivity in a vast swathe of knowledge economy jobs.
I have a theory that the human brain can only give-out so much creativity before it needs a bit of freedom to wander. I suspect that knowledge workers have big periods of time where their minds are effectively 'resting'/rejuvinating but these people are obliged to remain in the office and look like they are working.
Perhaps the four day week projects are showing that if people are given the choice, they can exchange some of that resting time for free time?
Or if you subscribe to David Graeber's bullshit jobs theory, if 80% of jobs are bullshit then what is the problem in reducing the amount of bullshit that needs to be done?
If companies need to maximally be available to customers, then why aren't all customer-oriented businesses open 24 hours?
Customers are spoiled with cheap unsustainable wages, especially the service industry where people really don't want to put in 8/10 hour days but are doing that because there is no other option.
The equitable future of that type of work is appointment-based. Meaning you as the customer go into a website and make an appointment to do what you need to do--and if you really derive value out of having a person do something for you, then this should not be a problem including any charges associated.
It would work out great for e.g. retail returns; go on to an app, make an available appointment, upload your receipt, and then go do the exchange/return. No lines so a better experience for the customer, and it would also firewall-off invalid returns and a good number of abuse attempts.
A really good pizzeria not to far from me has moved to this model successfully. If you want a pizza, you grab a timeslot, then pick it up. You can't just walk in and expect to get one 30 minutes from when you walk-in at a random time (unless they're free). The pizza is that good. This won't work for low-quality products, of course.
> why aren't all customer-oriented businesses open 24 hours?
Because that's not the established pattern of work for existing business that are hard to change.
> The equitable future of that type of work is appointment-based.
I think the word "equitable" needs to be replaced with one with some meaning to it. The problem with your suggestion is: should city centres or malls only be populated with shops, cafes and restaurants that are by appointment only? How would that actually change anything regarding what the shop would like to do? They can be open 4 days a week and be appointment-only or walk in. But I imagine a shop that isn't by appointment only will in generally lose compared to a shop that isn't. A restaurant is about the only type of place that can already sustain the premise of appointment-only, and only then likely in a regulatory/property environment that makes it hard to start alternatives.
I don't understand what the benefit of appointments for a pizza is. I'd expect that a huge part of pizzas is sold to people who are walking there anyways. Wouldn't you loose them and they would just go to the pizzeria around the next corner? What is the benefit for the pizzeria beside the cost for operating a website and hiring/buying software (developers), because programming that website isn't really the same expertise as making pizza? Most times the pizzeria is just idle anyways. This won't change, because the customers still need to pick it up, so instead of just picking it up, they need to take time to visit a website and pick it up.
> - this only applies to task-focused jobs; e.g. the service industry still needs people to work all the time customers might turn up
This is a problem which service industry jobs have already solved by scheduling employees in shifts. A typical fast food restaurant may be open 18+ hours a day, 7 days a week, but they certainly aren't requiring each of their employees to work those hours.
While still knowledge work, when I started my career I was working as a sys admin in a data center. It required 24x7x365 support. No one worked 5 days. All weekday shifts were 4x10. All weekend shifts were 3x12.
It doesn’t get to a 32 hour week, but it does still give a 3 or 4 day working week. I don’t see why this wouldn’t work for other support or customer facing roles.
Many types of businesses are closed on random weekdays, Monday is a popular day to be closed for businesses that operate on that weekend, and they seem to make it work. Ones I’ve called often have an answering service for those days.
Where I was at, on holidays we’d run a skeleton staff of 2 people to keep things going, with on-call if anything big happened.
I don’t think anything is special about 4 days, just baby steps. I personally think I was most productive on the 3x12 schedule. It let me hyper focus on work, and really have long stretches of deep work without interruption, while also giving me adequate time to rest and recover from that. I think I’d get much more done if I moved back to that, personally. Working 5x8, as I do now, isn’t that useful. Half the day is full of meetings, and as soon as I start to dig into something, the day is over. What should take a day ends up taking weeks.
I’m not necessarily looking to cut hours, but more to get more heads down working time, without working free OT. I actually found 4x10 to be the worst, 3x12 was the best, for me.
This argument can be applied equally against the weekend so I'm not sure it holds that much water. We've figured out how to have people work 5 out of 7 days, what drastically changes if it becomes 4? What if it had always been 4?
But to answer your question about coverage, $dayjob handles that with an on-call rotation and moving shifts for customer support.
A 4 day work week is a great step in the right direction. These things can be figured out on a case by case basis--many businesses are already running on sub 5 day work weeks, or their work weeks are abnormal (Tues-Sun, Wed-Sat, etc.). But, yes, there will need to be some businesses who retain the 5 day work weeks.
However, the benefit is that a large percentage of workers will have an extra day per week to focus on family, hobbies, engaging in the local economy. That outweighs any of the concerns you bring up.
Most of the Netherlands banks have switched to 4 dat workweeks, sure you don't get as much work done on 4 days but it sure is nice to have an extra day off:)
The less than 400k population is a good sample size, however, their main revenue comes from tourism, aluminum smelting, and fisheries, and they have a relatively large source of geothermal and hydropower with a very homogenous population (>80% Icelandic). Data centers are about 1% of its GDP. Even Iceland needs barkeeps and restaurant workers to work at least 5 days/week with restaurants in touristy areas open 7 days/week with shorter days on Sunday. Having worked a life of manual labor and white-collar jobs, sometimes both in the same job, the 4-day work week is really for specific types of industry or work. Tech, for sure, but not the food service industry...
That said, I'm not sure why this is always so popularly discussed in Eng forums. The reality is, our work is inherently async, and 90% of IC's could work 1 days/week if we magically squished all our work in that time frame. Many in practice get away with a 4 day work week. My company has a no-meeting Friday and I'm full remote, if I've finished my work I just quietly take it off.
So the reality is this: a 4 day work week for IC's means either asking them to work less or forcing them into a schedule they already had access to but opted to not take.
Why would a business be incentivized to have their staff work less or force them into an uncomfortable schedule that doens't adhere as nicely to the realities of parenthood or other adult commitments.
1) not every employee at every company is a programmer, even companies that employ programmers, which most don’t.
2) not every programmer is a remote employee
3) it’s sort of weird to not read an article but comment on it and make generalizations about the working patterns of all people based entirely on your personal situation
1) Not relevant to my argument. My commentary is focussed on eng IC's, and I'm picking that subset due to my other comment about these articles always being super popular in eng circles
2) Yes, which is a separate issue. 1) Nearly all IC's should have the option to at least work remotely on some days, 2) All management should allow for their reports to take the day off if the work is complete. The fact that I get away with working a 4 days a week is a loop hole not a solution.
3) Realities of paywall articles. I'm not paying for the top ~20 news sites individual $5/month subscription. Nothing wrong with disclaiming I haven't read it and providing my thoughts on the subject. I'm highly doubtful the article contains anything new anyways, just rehashing the same half dozen arguments that have been around for 20 years, plus 1 or 2 new ones sourced from 2020. Probably includes a link to some recent study about some group trying it out and finding some success, which the author extrapolate's to the rest of the corporate world, and probably commentary from some CEO. You've read it, let me know how far off I am.
Note that 4 day work here typically implies 4×8 hours, i.e. a reduction in hours for the same pay. This is how the trial worked in the UK, and is what most groups I've seen are campaigning for.
The goal is not just to rearrange work hours around the week, but to reduce work hours overall.
then "workers" will want to go out on their newly-free Friday and have a coffee and some lunch with friends...and those workers better damn well be there to serve them!
That's how Sundays work in some European countries - businesses, shops and some restaurants are closed, with a few exceptions (depending on the country ofc). Doesn't automatically mean one can't spend the time well.
It'd be nice if I could go out to eat on Fridays, but if everything just shut down on Friday I'd personally be good with that, too - I can imagine a world where nearly everything except maybe emergency services just took a day off. I would welcome the guilt-free opportunity to do absolutely nothing "productive" for one day a week.
That's Sunday in places where this is normal, we could just extend that
Ask a German or a Chilean how they spend their Sunday
It's not that everything closes, Malls open (Less hours) Chain Stores open and anything medium to large does, still, enough places close to make a difference, and also make the incentive of paying more to people working those days
Service company employees tend to work in shifts and not every employee works every shift, therefore they’re able to cover every day and shift - but with different people. Look at the people at your coffee shop sometimes and you’ll notice they’re not always the same people.
Readit News
- this only applies to task-focused jobs; e.g. the service industry still needs people to work all the time customers might turn up
- studies may have picked companies/orgs that are likely to have the foresight and talent to try a new way of working; this may not scale well to general work
- how do companies that have customers that work 5 days a week work this out? Do you need two people working overlapping 4 out of 5 days so they cover all 5 days for every customer-facing role?
- if people can do 5 days' work in 4, can they also do 4 days' work in 3? What's special about 4 days? Will work scope down until it becomes true that it could be done in 3 days, just as 5 days' work seems to have scoped down to be doable in 4?
My suspicion is that the time spent per week at work or 'doing' work is no longer the limiting factor for productivity in a vast swathe of knowledge economy jobs.
I have a theory that the human brain can only give-out so much creativity before it needs a bit of freedom to wander. I suspect that knowledge workers have big periods of time where their minds are effectively 'resting'/rejuvinating but these people are obliged to remain in the office and look like they are working.
Perhaps the four day week projects are showing that if people are given the choice, they can exchange some of that resting time for free time?
Four days of bullshit instead of five?
Customers are spoiled with cheap unsustainable wages, especially the service industry where people really don't want to put in 8/10 hour days but are doing that because there is no other option.
The equitable future of that type of work is appointment-based. Meaning you as the customer go into a website and make an appointment to do what you need to do--and if you really derive value out of having a person do something for you, then this should not be a problem including any charges associated.
It would work out great for e.g. retail returns; go on to an app, make an available appointment, upload your receipt, and then go do the exchange/return. No lines so a better experience for the customer, and it would also firewall-off invalid returns and a good number of abuse attempts.
A really good pizzeria not to far from me has moved to this model successfully. If you want a pizza, you grab a timeslot, then pick it up. You can't just walk in and expect to get one 30 minutes from when you walk-in at a random time (unless they're free). The pizza is that good. This won't work for low-quality products, of course.
Because that's not the established pattern of work for existing business that are hard to change.
> The equitable future of that type of work is appointment-based.
I think the word "equitable" needs to be replaced with one with some meaning to it. The problem with your suggestion is: should city centres or malls only be populated with shops, cafes and restaurants that are by appointment only? How would that actually change anything regarding what the shop would like to do? They can be open 4 days a week and be appointment-only or walk in. But I imagine a shop that isn't by appointment only will in generally lose compared to a shop that isn't. A restaurant is about the only type of place that can already sustain the premise of appointment-only, and only then likely in a regulatory/property environment that makes it hard to start alternatives.
This is a problem which service industry jobs have already solved by scheduling employees in shifts. A typical fast food restaurant may be open 18+ hours a day, 7 days a week, but they certainly aren't requiring each of their employees to work those hours.
It doesn’t get to a 32 hour week, but it does still give a 3 or 4 day working week. I don’t see why this wouldn’t work for other support or customer facing roles.
Many types of businesses are closed on random weekdays, Monday is a popular day to be closed for businesses that operate on that weekend, and they seem to make it work. Ones I’ve called often have an answering service for those days.
Where I was at, on holidays we’d run a skeleton staff of 2 people to keep things going, with on-call if anything big happened.
I don’t think anything is special about 4 days, just baby steps. I personally think I was most productive on the 3x12 schedule. It let me hyper focus on work, and really have long stretches of deep work without interruption, while also giving me adequate time to rest and recover from that. I think I’d get much more done if I moved back to that, personally. Working 5x8, as I do now, isn’t that useful. Half the day is full of meetings, and as soon as I start to dig into something, the day is over. What should take a day ends up taking weeks.
I’m not necessarily looking to cut hours, but more to get more heads down working time, without working free OT. I actually found 4x10 to be the worst, 3x12 was the best, for me.
> Do you need...
> Will work scope down...
Sounds to me like a list of problems for market forces to solve.
But to answer your question about coverage, $dayjob handles that with an on-call rotation and moving shifts for customer support.
However, the benefit is that a large percentage of workers will have an extra day per week to focus on family, hobbies, engaging in the local economy. That outweighs any of the concerns you bring up.
Deleted Comment
Dead Comment
https://farmingdale-observer.com/2025/05/31/iceland-approved...
That said, I'm not sure why this is always so popularly discussed in Eng forums. The reality is, our work is inherently async, and 90% of IC's could work 1 days/week if we magically squished all our work in that time frame. Many in practice get away with a 4 day work week. My company has a no-meeting Friday and I'm full remote, if I've finished my work I just quietly take it off.
So the reality is this: a 4 day work week for IC's means either asking them to work less or forcing them into a schedule they already had access to but opted to not take.
Why would a business be incentivized to have their staff work less or force them into an uncomfortable schedule that doens't adhere as nicely to the realities of parenthood or other adult commitments.
2) not every programmer is a remote employee
3) it’s sort of weird to not read an article but comment on it and make generalizations about the working patterns of all people based entirely on your personal situation
2) Yes, which is a separate issue. 1) Nearly all IC's should have the option to at least work remotely on some days, 2) All management should allow for their reports to take the day off if the work is complete. The fact that I get away with working a 4 days a week is a loop hole not a solution.
3) Realities of paywall articles. I'm not paying for the top ~20 news sites individual $5/month subscription. Nothing wrong with disclaiming I haven't read it and providing my thoughts on the subject. I'm highly doubtful the article contains anything new anyways, just rehashing the same half dozen arguments that have been around for 20 years, plus 1 or 2 new ones sourced from 2020. Probably includes a link to some recent study about some group trying it out and finding some success, which the author extrapolate's to the rest of the corporate world, and probably commentary from some CEO. You've read it, let me know how far off I am.
The goal is not just to rearrange work hours around the week, but to reduce work hours overall.
I don't know about you, but there are often periods at work where the week goes by too quickly.
Maybe this would spur hiring and give workers more leverage.
What is it you think happens on Saturday? Do you think those baristas are working 7 days/week?
Ask a German or a Chilean how they spend their Sunday
It's not that everything closes, Malls open (Less hours) Chain Stores open and anything medium to large does, still, enough places close to make a difference, and also make the incentive of paying more to people working those days