I think it’s worth amending this to just “apps can kill”. I volunteer with search and rescue sometimes and have seen several people get into bad trouble due to reliance on phones for maps. Sometimes it’s dead batteries or just breakage without a backup plan, but no doubt other times it’s changing behavior in the app itself, OS decided to wipe cache, app has bad info, whatever.
You can say that people should know better but sometimes dead tree maps are not available, and anyway there’s no doubt that they are on the way out. The “safe/reliable” way might even seem to be up for debate, since phones can be more waterproof than paper, less likely to blow away when you’re on top of a mountain, serve as a backup flashlight/emergency comms, etc. But all it takes is a company that decides to force auto update and a PM that decides feature churn increases engagement and creates job security, and who knows what will break?
It is kind of like packaging that’s a choking or asphyxiation hazard.. if you’re doing anything that affects millions of people, it’s almost ALWAYS a safety issue even if you don’t usually think of it that way. No big audience or big user base without big responsibilities. Sure you’ll probably not be held liable in law suits, but on the other hand you should probably feel bad if you’re killing people due to indifference /negligence when thinking through edge cases.
> but no doubt other times it’s changing behavior in the app itself, OS decided to wipe cache, app has bad info, whatever
GaiaGPS, which advertises is offline capability, after an update (but not immediately after the update) recently required users to login to continue using the app. Which was impossible if you happened to be out of cell phone range 10 miles from a trailhead when this login popup happened. Incredibly bone-headed move, and dangerous for hikers that aren't smart enough to carry backup map sources. But Gaia has been trending this way for several years.
I wish there was a way to write a poison pill clause into a company's founding charter, such as "We will not be evil, and should the day arrive when we become evil, the company shall be liquidated and all its IP shall become open source under the MIT license. 'Evil' is described below..." and one of the many ways to be evil would of course be to require users to be online and/or to log into an account before using the service. Or to suddenly decide to make a profit after starting as a nonprofit, like OpenAI.
Such a clause would have to be completely understood by VCs and investors prior to investing. If no investors wanted to invest under these circumstances, so be it. This is the only kind of company I'd ever want to be a founder of.
Very minor life hack, but when hiking with a phone map I always take a screenshot of the map to ensure I have at least that. Also a good habit to photo the map whenever starting a known trail with the big map at the start - I do that as a habit now.
One time, I dropped my phone in a parking lot and it landed face down on a pebble rendering my screen completely unusable. That's never happened with a paper map in a ziploc bag.
Funny thing. I was in search and rescue as a teen, and I went though the courses with a friend. A decade or so later, we were hiking on a bright sunny day* and weren't properly prepared. We went off trail, and found ourselves in an unknown position. Our predominant emotion was shame, with the understanding that if we got S&R called on us we would be completely honest about our training (not that our spouses wouldn't be honest for us). We had a paper map but no compass, and were able to navigate to a marked trail with some educated guesswork. In the end, it was a fun adventure, but the shame stuck with us the whole way home.
* note: "bright and sunny day" is the condition that search and rescue teaches one to be the most mindful of. It's where you and everybody else get the most confident, and prepare the least.
Very practical advice, but there's a few reasons things like this can't make the issue disappear. For example, a topo map could kill an amateur because they don't know how to use it and they might even know this about themselves, and assume that an interactive display with "you are here" is a safer choice. For someone that can read a map, what if it doesn't show trails but an app does? Even people who are reaching for a smart choice and bring their app-map and paper-map can still have the rug pulled out from under them at any time just because they didn't compare the two often enough, then the app somehow fails them and it's too late.
Not everyone is an engineer, and they may simply not be aware that things like reliability / stability / user-control / user-consent for phones/apps/SaaS is a complete joke compared to any other kind of technology. Someone out there probably has a "life alert" app that used to work but has been recently broken because the API to pre-load the "one trick all seniors should know" advertisements recently changed. Someone can't see to dial emergency services because their huge-font-app was removed from the app store/marked as malware, or maybe their flashlight-app doesn't work because a server or cell connectivity went down and it can't phone home telemetry.
All the following things are true at the same time. Backup plans, knowledge, and tactics are good. Victim-blaming is often very tempting/easy. Apps have no doubt saved lives as well. We can still acknowledge issues and try to do better. "Death by GPS" as a recognizable figure of speech should not be a thing. It's no longer a solid bet that "works today" means "unless I change something, it's working tomorrow".. this is bad and is mostly unnecessary. As time goes on advice to avoid technology to avoid associated problems always becomes impractical (good luck throwing away your phone/email to avoid spam) so at some point we have to actually admit and address the problems.
My ass has been saved more times by an iPhone compass and offline OrganicMaps than the other way round. Quote the situation a couple of years back where the state issued paper maps were completely wrong and my Suunto compass turned out to likely be a fake one and froze and cracked open overnight. 30km from humans on a mountain range in central asia.
I have never had an iPhone crap out on me I will add. Has completely replaced my dedicated GPS.
The worst thing I've ever seen though is a compass app on Android that won't work if it can't contact the ad server.
This is really the fault of the insurance company (they geo-locked the app, Apple is just respecting that).
But really the idea of in-network hospitals for emergency services is nuts. Like, checkups, chronic issues—fine, your instance provider might have some preferences. But if it is an emergency (a situation in which you might die) and you have to figure out which hospital to go to first: Apple can not fix your malfunctioning society.
Article: I didn't care about a corporation restricting people's freedom until it hurt me.
Comments: Its not the corporation, its the government. Its not the corporation, its just the way things are. Its ok the corporation restricts freedom, everything is a tradeoff and everyone does this. Gollygee I hope this gets better.
real elevating curious conversation here /s that never self reflects, is our culture of software making the world worse? will one day our intentional naivety around power fail to protect us from that truth?
Please elaborate on the times when a large institution restricted peoples freedom for their "own good." The history of this is extremely clear. Software being involved is just an obscuring detail.
There are real positive tradeoffs made by locking down an os. a phone existing that can’t get bona-fide spyware on it (when kept updated) has saved countless people from the stress and grief of eg being blackmailed or having their private browsing habits made public.
People should be able to buy the phone that fits their needs.
A lot can be said about Apple and walled gardens for sure, but is it fair to mostly blame Apple for the region locked insurance app, rather than the app developer? That was the developer’s choice to do, not Apple’s. Hopefully Anees’ insurance also has an website and contact numbers for emergencies. Android supports region locking and has some region locked apps too, it appears, according to Google. Is the Android version of the app in question not region locked on Android? We don’t know since he used an emulator. Maybe region locking is easy to get around if you’re technical, but in an emergency for most non-technical people, the outcome will be the same on Android as it is on Apple, no?
I agree that this is might not be the most-likely-to-kill-you aspect of using walled gardens, but since it's what the article is about... No, the vendor of your hardware should not be participating in schemes like region locking. You paid them for the device, they're supposed to be working for you, not against you.
The fact that google does it also doesn't make it ok.
For apps, you pay the developer and Apple takes a cut, right? The developers are the ones demanding region locking functionality, and either way they are also paying Apple. Apple’s not working against you so much as serving multiple customers, and developers get more say in how apps work. I agree that Google also doing it doesn’t justify the practice, my main point was that moving to Android doesn’t actually fix the problem like the article implied.
> Android supports region locking and has some region locked apps too, it appears, according to Google.
No, Android does not support region locking. Neither does iOS. (Technically, you can make your app look at the SIM country and exit if it's not what you want, but nobody does this.) App stores on those platforms support region locking. The problem the author is highlighting is that you can't just get the ipk and install it directly to get around the app store's restrictions like you can on most Android phones.
> Maybe region locking is easy to get around if you’re technical, but in an emergency for most non-technical people, the outcome will be the same on Android as it is on Apple, no?
Unless something has change in the past few years since I needed to do this, you can get around it on iPhone by creating a new Apple ID for the new region and logging your phone into that account.
[added] probably not the first thing one thinks about if they are in a heighten anxiety/panic state though
I was unopinionated about Apple's walled garden until the events of last week. Now I'm pro side-loading. If you've been on the fence, hope this changes your mind.
Thanks for sharing this. I agree with others that this issue is primarily caused by the insurer (why does this need an app?) and dysfunctional healthcare governed by money and greed.
Still it's a good reminder of what you're getting into with walled gardens.
More broadly, it is a real shame how corporations have turned mobile internet into the complete opposite of what it could achieve.
Ideally, the only thing tied to a specific hardware or software provider should be your identity.
And imho, said provider should be controlled by state government, and be accessible from any device, given the proof of identity.
If I am understanding, you were in United Arab Emirates (UAE), but your phone was logged into an account set to a different region?
If that is the case I am surprised that is the first time you ran into a geo locked app and didn't already have another Apple account for that region that you could log into. This was one of the first things I quickly learned to do if I wanted my iPhone to be useful at all when I spent many months living in a (non-Western) country. (using apps for their services)
I went to a foreign country in 2019 and got a local SIM card, I couldn't install the ISP's app (I don't remember why I needed it, to make sure I got the quota that the seller promised?) because the app was region-locked.. huh, should I change my Google account's region just for the period I'm that country?
FWIW when sth like this happens, you can try to go to a place like APKPure and actually download the damn thing without anyone telling you that you can't.
Also works for pinning versions of apps that ship some malware (like safetynet detection) with a new update. Apps installed from there are not linked to play store by default and so updates are not checked.
Similarly it’s very annoying not being able to use banking apps on a phone I bought here in Europe, even when they work fine on the phone I brought from the US
After a couple of days that screen cleared, but then I found that their website won't take payment from me (I'm based outside of the US, but have a US billing address, so that's likely the cause of that.) I did find that their app at this point allowed me to subscribe through Google Play subscriptions (once I had gotten this account fully setup), so that almost got me to the finish line (except for some reason I got blocked and decided to start again with a new account, so back to square 1).
I'll also note that (of course) they don't support chromecast (as I think all or most other streaming apps available on Android do); the workaround is apparently to open the Apple TV site in chrome and cast from there.
The same where a bank doesn't provide the same data and services on their website than on their phone application. And that application in addition to being region-locked requires a non-rooted phone with GApps installed.
> The same where a bank doesn't provide the same data and services on their website than on their phone application.
I'm sure this exists (and clearly so does the insurance company practice), but I've never run into it — bank websites always have the same or more functionality than the phone app. Except maybe something like mobile deposit.
I do wonder if there's something like RDP but for phones.. Like if you could keep a burner phone on somewhere at home maybe and RDP into it to use these crappy malware apps so that they don't complain.
Would require transparent file and copy buffers I guess. In addition to remote desktop functions.
Readit News
You can say that people should know better but sometimes dead tree maps are not available, and anyway there’s no doubt that they are on the way out. The “safe/reliable” way might even seem to be up for debate, since phones can be more waterproof than paper, less likely to blow away when you’re on top of a mountain, serve as a backup flashlight/emergency comms, etc. But all it takes is a company that decides to force auto update and a PM that decides feature churn increases engagement and creates job security, and who knows what will break?
It is kind of like packaging that’s a choking or asphyxiation hazard.. if you’re doing anything that affects millions of people, it’s almost ALWAYS a safety issue even if you don’t usually think of it that way. No big audience or big user base without big responsibilities. Sure you’ll probably not be held liable in law suits, but on the other hand you should probably feel bad if you’re killing people due to indifference /negligence when thinking through edge cases.
GaiaGPS, which advertises is offline capability, after an update (but not immediately after the update) recently required users to login to continue using the app. Which was impossible if you happened to be out of cell phone range 10 miles from a trailhead when this login popup happened. Incredibly bone-headed move, and dangerous for hikers that aren't smart enough to carry backup map sources. But Gaia has been trending this way for several years.
Funny thing. I was in search and rescue as a teen, and I went though the courses with a friend. A decade or so later, we were hiking on a bright sunny day* and weren't properly prepared. We went off trail, and found ourselves in an unknown position. Our predominant emotion was shame, with the understanding that if we got S&R called on us we would be completely honest about our training (not that our spouses wouldn't be honest for us). We had a paper map but no compass, and were able to navigate to a marked trail with some educated guesswork. In the end, it was a fun adventure, but the shame stuck with us the whole way home.
* note: "bright and sunny day" is the condition that search and rescue teaches one to be the most mindful of. It's where you and everybody else get the most confident, and prepare the least.
You can also purchase printed copies.
A gallon ziplock bag makes for cheap lamination. So does clear packing tape.
Not everyone is an engineer, and they may simply not be aware that things like reliability / stability / user-control / user-consent for phones/apps/SaaS is a complete joke compared to any other kind of technology. Someone out there probably has a "life alert" app that used to work but has been recently broken because the API to pre-load the "one trick all seniors should know" advertisements recently changed. Someone can't see to dial emergency services because their huge-font-app was removed from the app store/marked as malware, or maybe their flashlight-app doesn't work because a server or cell connectivity went down and it can't phone home telemetry.
All the following things are true at the same time. Backup plans, knowledge, and tactics are good. Victim-blaming is often very tempting/easy. Apps have no doubt saved lives as well. We can still acknowledge issues and try to do better. "Death by GPS" as a recognizable figure of speech should not be a thing. It's no longer a solid bet that "works today" means "unless I change something, it's working tomorrow".. this is bad and is mostly unnecessary. As time goes on advice to avoid technology to avoid associated problems always becomes impractical (good luck throwing away your phone/email to avoid spam) so at some point we have to actually admit and address the problems.
My ass has been saved more times by an iPhone compass and offline OrganicMaps than the other way round. Quote the situation a couple of years back where the state issued paper maps were completely wrong and my Suunto compass turned out to likely be a fake one and froze and cracked open overnight. 30km from humans on a mountain range in central asia.
I have never had an iPhone crap out on me I will add. Has completely replaced my dedicated GPS.
The worst thing I've ever seen though is a compass app on Android that won't work if it can't contact the ad server.
Deleted Comment
But really the idea of in-network hospitals for emergency services is nuts. Like, checkups, chronic issues—fine, your instance provider might have some preferences. But if it is an emergency (a situation in which you might die) and you have to figure out which hospital to go to first: Apple can not fix your malfunctioning society.
This sounds like a verbose way of saying "this is really the fault of Apple".
Deleted Comment
Nu-uh. (?)
Comments: Its not the corporation, its the government. Its not the corporation, its just the way things are. Its ok the corporation restricts freedom, everything is a tradeoff and everyone does this. Gollygee I hope this gets better.
real elevating curious conversation here /s that never self reflects, is our culture of software making the world worse? will one day our intentional naivety around power fail to protect us from that truth?
Please elaborate on the times when a large institution restricted peoples freedom for their "own good." The history of this is extremely clear. Software being involved is just an obscuring detail.
It's not. I'm not a history buff so I won't speak for the past. But right now there is a huge accountability problem.
Government literally can't exist without ignoring accountability.
Corporations are incentivised to ignore accountability.
Individuals want to ignore accountability.
You only have control over yourself. If you want your life to go better then you have to take the accountability.
Don't put all your eggs in one basket, have backups, understand how the things you participate in work. Ask questions like "why would this be free".
It's a long road for everyone but if you want to be safe and happy you gotta take the solutions into your own hands.
People should be able to buy the phone that fits their needs.
The fact that google does it also doesn't make it ok.
No, Android does not support region locking. Neither does iOS. (Technically, you can make your app look at the SIM country and exit if it's not what you want, but nobody does this.) App stores on those platforms support region locking. The problem the author is highlighting is that you can't just get the ipk and install it directly to get around the app store's restrictions like you can on most Android phones.
Unless something has change in the past few years since I needed to do this, you can get around it on iPhone by creating a new Apple ID for the new region and logging your phone into that account.
[added] probably not the first thing one thinks about if they are in a heighten anxiety/panic state though
It probably is, I didn't check. I was able to grab the APK and install it directly
Still it's a good reminder of what you're getting into with walled gardens.
More broadly, it is a real shame how corporations have turned mobile internet into the complete opposite of what it could achieve.
Ideally, the only thing tied to a specific hardware or software provider should be your identity.
And imho, said provider should be controlled by state government, and be accessible from any device, given the proof of identity.
If that is the case I am surprised that is the first time you ran into a geo locked app and didn't already have another Apple account for that region that you could log into. This was one of the first things I quickly learned to do if I wanted my iPhone to be useful at all when I spent many months living in a (non-Western) country. (using apps for their services)
(I had the same thought as you at first :)
While the submission does make an important point, it seems a bit obfuscated by accusing Apple exclusively.
Seems like main benefit of the side-loading was bypassing the geofence.
And while native apps provide heavier geo-attribution (thus, probably harder to fake), I'm not sure if this is solely an Android vs Apple thing.
Also works for pinning versions of apps that ship some malware (like safetynet detection) with a new update. Apps installed from there are not linked to play store by default and so updates are not checked.
There is an Android app, and that installs smoothly enough, but trying to start a subscription initially errored out on both my & my wife's phones.
I then tried to create a new user through the Apple website, and got stuck on this screen, which was throwing 500s every time I clicked on the continue button: https://www.reddit.com/r/applehelp/comments/17zawel/continue....
After a couple of days that screen cleared, but then I found that their website won't take payment from me (I'm based outside of the US, but have a US billing address, so that's likely the cause of that.) I did find that their app at this point allowed me to subscribe through Google Play subscriptions (once I had gotten this account fully setup), so that almost got me to the finish line (except for some reason I got blocked and decided to start again with a new account, so back to square 1).
I'll also note that (of course) they don't support chromecast (as I think all or most other streaming apps available on Android do); the workaround is apparently to open the Apple TV site in chrome and cast from there.
Kind of a shitshow, overall.
I'm sure this exists (and clearly so does the insurance company practice), but I've never run into it — bank websites always have the same or more functionality than the phone app. Except maybe something like mobile deposit.
Would require transparent file and copy buffers I guess. In addition to remote desktop functions.