Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard

This is the keyboard I’ve been hoping Apple would make for years! I’ve currently got a UHK 60 but would probably switch to this if I could buy it. Especially if it had the standard Apple keyboard layout so my fingers don’t need to relearn things like arrow keys and cmd like when I switch between the UHK and MacBook keyboard.

robenkleene · 10 months ago

For folks looking for something similar that you can buy https://hellonuio.com/

TheNightman · 9 months ago

Similar but different https://www.zsa.io/voyager is my weapon of choice.

arcastroe · 9 months ago

woah, ty! I've been using the Dygma Defy [1], but I might switch to this!

[1] https://dygma.com/products/dygma-defy

jacobevelyn · 10 months ago

Ooh thank you for the tip!

nextos · 10 months ago

Me too. Low-profile is nicer to joints in the long run, and also makes me type faster due to low-travel switches. Bonus points if it has a little bit of negative tilt.

In this regard, I found Microsoft Sculpt really good because it ticked all ergonomic boxes but it didn't require relearning. However, quality was a bit subpar, it didn't offer a wired option, and it has been discontinued. The entire lineup was actually sold to Incase, who are releasing it again soon.

jjani · 10 months ago

> Low-profile is nicer to joints in the long run

Very much so. I went through 10+ keyboards before finding one that I could type on for a day without aching joints. The only one that passed (which I'm typing this comment on), was the lowest out of all of them. Cheap Aliexpress keyboard, but it's maybe 4mm from table to keyboard. For those in a similar situation that want to try it, it's this one [1]. Definitely not "high quality", but saved me from inability to type.

Question for the keyboard-knowledgeable: it claims in this picture [2] to use scissor keys but the picture of its insides are pretty meaningless to me. Does their claim look to hold up?

[1] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006265944802.html

[2] https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/Sf4d150eda2c4441490535d5f17ebfbfc...

vladvasiliu · 10 months ago

I loved th MS Sculpt (the "75%" one, with a layout similar to a laptop, only split). It started randomly failing for some reason, the only keyboard I've ever had to fail...

But I don't think that being low-profile was what was nice on the joints with that keyboard, but rather the presence of the palm rest which didn't force the wrists to bend upwards.

I now type on a "gaming" keyboard with full-size cherry switches, which is quite thick, and I don't have any wrist pain. Some 12 years ago, I used to have an Apple keyboard which was hell on my wrists, despite being quite low profile. The Apple didn't have a palm rest, the mech one does.

As to your typing speed remark, I suppose you already know that you don't have to bottom out your keys. I find I type faster on my mechanical keyboard than on laptops, and it's also easier on my fingers since there's no shock from bottoming out. It takes a while to get used to not press the keys all the way, but it's a much more pleasant experience. It's also quieter than the random HP domed keyboards we have at work or any laptop.

someothherguyy · 10 months ago

> Low-profile is nicer to joints in the long run

I think low profile is worse on joints in the long run. It probably isn't a universal truth.

kalium-xyz · 10 months ago

I have had 3 of which 1 has bricked itself.

roflchoppa · 10 months ago

I really just want a wireless 60v2. Been debating trying to make a new PCB that uses a nice!nano.

I’m sure the devils in the details.

Deleted Comment

SJMG · 10 months ago

Yes. Agreed.

Personal opinion, but I really don’t get low-profile keyboards. I always need a foam cushion for my palms, which means that a normal profile always feels best for me. Low feels too low with a cushion, and yet still feels too high without one.

crazygringo · 10 months ago

I know what you mean, but there's also a big difference between key height and keyboard height.

There's also a common misconception that it's ergonomic to angle a keyboard "upward" (elevating the back of the keyboard), when correct ergonomics is actually to angle the keyboard downwards (elevate the front).

See if you have a long object a little shorter than your foam cushion that you can scotch tape to the bottom of the front of a low-profile Apple keyboard, so that you still use the foam cushion but the front of the keyboard is at the same level as the cushion, and then angles downwards.

And then you get the advantages of the short key travel, which just means your fingers move less and so there's less force/strain.

You may find it shockingly comfortable!

luqtas · 10 months ago

keyboard upward or downward angulation depends on your wrist support, arm position/chair height... what's optimal and generic to suggest because how our upper extremity muscles are, (at least for mouse but i think it can work for keyboards too) [0] is having it sides angled from 20° up to 30°, subjective exprience also plays a role

you can easily find MX switches that have equal or +- 0.5mm travel lenght as low-profiles ones... which considering how thin PCB (and even handwired) flat keyboards are, i can't see the point unless you are supporting your arms in the same table your keyboard is! i rather have my arms floating so i can use shoulder and elbow movement for distant keys other than wrist movements but who cares :P

[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00036...

apocalyptic0n3 · 10 months ago

I've tried numerous keyboards and the conclusion I've come to is that there's low profile and then there's low profile. The bulk of the low profiles I've tried (NuPhy, Keychron K8, the mechanical Logitech, a few others) are definitely low profile compared to the Logitech Pro X TKL I use for my gaming PC. However, they're still tall. Most of the gains are from a shorter switch and keycap, but the body is still quite high.

If you compare it to the Apple Magic Keyboard I'm typing on now – and that seems like a definite inspiration for the Bayleaf – it's a stark contrast. The K3, for example, is more than twice as tall (10.9mm vs 22mm backrow). The Magic Keyboard feels fine to type on without any sort of wrist support and I never feel any strain. But on the K3, even with a support (tried both their wooden support and a similarly sized foam one), I would feel strain after an hour or two.

Most low-profiles are really just a middle ground between the two sides. And, at least in my experience, you get the downsides of both without any of the positives of either.

lsaferite · 10 months ago

As a low-profile keyboard zealot, I'm trying to imagine why you'd need a foam pad under your palm. But maybe I'm odd. My entire forearm rests on my desk and supports my arm weight so nothing is pushing down on my hands. Then my hands flow directly over the LP keyboard without any appreciable bend in my wrist.

makeitdouble · 10 months ago

My take is that finger muscle are really different from person to person, to a degree that can be surprising.

I might be at the other extreme end, but even typing on glass doesn't bother me much, and laptop keyboards are a good compromise to have just enough travel and not too much.

I tried a nuphy low profile and it was tiring after a while. The thinkpad standalone trackpoint keyboard has been my go to for a while, and tgis keyboard also looks great to me.

hinkley · 10 months ago

Squishy keyboards make the tendons on the backs of my hand burn after a while. After Apple stopped producing their wired keyboard, which I used for everything, I bought a bunch of surplus ones and burned through them. I tried a few knockoffs, several of which were close, and now I’m on the wireless ones.

I was surprised as anyone when an Apple keyboard became my gaming keyboard.

bee_rider · 10 months ago

Another opinion:

I want this keyboard to put on a bookshelf and never use, haha. It is really nice looking. It sounds like it was an incredible learning experience and making something so polished and professional looking is a real accomplishment. But low profile, no pads, ortho layout, and no tenting… my eyes ache for the beauty of the thing but my hands just ache.

But anyway, ergonomics are personal so I can’t really judge.

volemo · 10 months ago

> ...low profile, no pads, ortho layout, and no tenting...

I agree with the tenting remark, I can understand the preference against low profile, but I sincerely believe ortholinear is way better for one's hands than staggered. Maybe you mean it's a shame it's not columnar?

> ...ergonomics are personal...

Hear, hear!

LAC-Tech · 10 months ago

I like low-profile in theory, but in practices there's so many high quality mx profile switches, and everything in low-profile land seems a bit substandard. I can't go back to unlubed linears, or scratchy brown clones.

__MatrixMan__ · 10 months ago

I agree. It looks like with this it would be near impossible to press the lower left/right keys with my palm, which is something that helps take the load off my pinkies. It does look like a fun project though.

volemo · 10 months ago

Sorry for uninvited advice, but you really shouldn't be using the keys in the corners for common actions (so common that you have a need to take the load off you pinkies). Utilise the CapsLock [1, 2]. (This key is so misbalanced in terms of prime key estate to utility ratio!) Better yet, try using home row modifiers [3].

[1]: https://wiki.c2.com/?RemapCapsLock

[2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/1442ads/mapping_capslo...

[3]: https://mattgemmell.scot/home-row-mods/

exitb · 10 months ago

It really depends on personal preferences. I find it best to hover the wrists while typing and rest while idle. In such case no palm rest paired with reasonably low profile works best.

+ it's low profile (Kailh) + it's TKL 80% and 100% + it's available ANSI and ISO + it's wireless o it's not split (I like it this way but it depends on personal taste) - it's NOT hot swappable - it's not QMK / ZMK

seemaze · 10 months ago

Bravo! You have elevated a honed tool to a truly engaging artifact! I think the large challenge in design is mitigating the breaking point between ruthless efficiency and endearing novelty.

I picked up a Let's Split v2[0] when it came out years ago and never soldered it up.. maybe it's time!

[0]https://shop.beekeeb.com/product/lets-split-v2-keyboard-pcb-...

w10-1 · 10 months ago

For next iteration, consider integrating trackpads?

Moving to the mouse and back is pain enough that people go all-in on keyboard-only interfaces.

I velcroed a trackpad to the middle of a Kinesis Advantage. Now I use either hand for the mouse, and even stretch a finger or thumb to the pad without leaving the keys. The movement is little different from using the keyboard.

But for split keyboard, you'd need one trackpad for each side, and in dimensions not readily available. hmm.

jazzabeanie · 10 months ago

I want a trackpads integrated into the keys. Under the J key a trackpad with low sensitifity, and under the K key a trackpad with high sensitivity.

mystified5016 · 9 months ago

Have you ever used a J-key trackpoint? I found an absolutley ancient Compaq laptop from the W3.1 era and I found the J-key mouse shockingly pleasant! Well, as pleasant as trackpoint mice get anyway.

We should bring that back, I think I like it more than the thinkpad style

wyre · 10 months ago

Brilliant! Use modifier keys with your left hand for either key entry or mouse click?

sgraz · 10 months ago

Definitely looking into adding trackpad/trackpoint/touchpad(?) into the V2. And finding a way to do so without sacrificing the minimalist look and feel too much.

JeremyBarbosa · 10 months ago

So happy to read this because I don't see it mentioned often enough.

I have a ErgoDox EZ, and I still prefer using my Framework 13 (with Kanata![0]) because having my thumbs navigate the trackpad is so convenient even with a keyboard-driven setup.

[0] https://github.com/jtroo/kanata

yencabulator · 10 months ago

I have a touchpad in between the halves of my Ergodox EZ. It's not exactly as easy to reach as a laptop touchpad, but it's worlds better than moving your shoulder to reach a mouse.

mkl · 10 months ago

I put a trackball (Kensington Expert Mouse) in between the keyboard halves. With tenting it can nestle in quite close.

danielvaughn · 10 months ago

klauserc · 10 months ago

Fantastically beautiful keyboard!

Keyboards are such a good hobby project. The scope is comparatively small, yet within that scope you get in contact with many different and highly interesting subjects and challenges. And you can more or less pick and choose, which ones you engage with (wireless vs wired, soldering vs hand-wired, custom firmware vs. ZMK/QMK, split vs. traditional).

sandreas · 10 months ago

This is so funny, I dived into the custom keyboard rabbit hole just 3 weeks ago. Never thought this would be so intriguing and time consuming.

Did you consider Mill-Max Sockets?

My personal favorite are 80% TKL ISO low profile keyboards, which is quite uncommon and I've not found much except the

  Keychron K1 Max

having this layout. Unfortunately, the integrated Gateron brown/red/... low profile switches are not my thing - my favorite ones would be Lofree Kailh Ghost, but these don't fit the keyboard, although it is hot swappable because low profile switches are non standard (at least 2 different layouts I know of).

So I also thought about a custom solution. I found pretty impressive open source firmware and pcbs [1], but I noticed that I just didn't have the time to do all this. Since keyboards are so an individual device, manufacturing bigger batches is risky and manufacturing smaller batches is expensive... so pretty much no choice than waiting for someone having the same dream as I have or do it myself after shoving free enough time.

1: https://github.com/4pplet/waffling80/issues/1

ValentinPearce · 10 months ago

> I dived into the custom keyboard rabbit hole just 3 weeks ago

Take your time, the GAS is real and expensive !

All jokes aside, ordering small batches of PCBs is unfortunately very expensive, especially if you have a larger size.

If you ever feel the itch of going towards ergonomic split keyboards, you'll find plenty of ~40% splits that use reversible PCBs for both halves which allows for cheap batches. Typically you get 5 PCBs with JLC and that gives you enough to build one full keyboard for work and one for home.

> If you ever feel the itch of going towards ergonomic split keyboards

Unlikely. I caught my [nearly perfect] unicorn, but I'm not telling you what it is, because a.) it is too embarrassing and b.) don't wanna ruin your chase :-)

There are some hints I can tell you though:

Probably I'm going to work on the hot-swappable thing via Mill-Max 7305 or 3305 (already ordered a pack), but the soldering will really take time, even if I use soldering paste and I have to order a second one for experimens.

UI_at_80x24 · 10 months ago

OP, congrats on the product and effort. _NOTHING_ beats prototyping and building.

For other split-mechanical keyboards check out:

ZSA Voyager

Moergo Glove 80

cole-k · 10 months ago

Yeah this is awesome.

For keyboards really similar to OP's

The keyboard they were inspired by (not for sale... yet?): https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/...

Corneish (out of stock): https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen?variant=376943319... Unicorne: https://new.boardsource.xyz/products/unicorne-LP

The corneish is an absolute gem in my opinion. It is possibly (probably?) open-sourced too.

The mikefive is my dream work keyboard. It's two keys extra from what I have currently but I know I can find something to do with the extra cluster keys

johncalvinyoung · 10 months ago

less specifically like OP's, but a really great product that I and a bunch of my coworkers use: the 'Ultimate Hacking Keyboard' 60 (typically referred to as a UHK). I have mine with the palmrest and the recent riser accessory, so I use it split and tented for less wrist/forearm tension.

tortilla · 10 months ago

I have the voyager and I'm really very happy with it. No wrist pain when I'm typing a lot.

https://imgur.com/pklEZSh

Ambients Silent Choc Switches (20g Linear), keycaps from worklouder (Pure)

droctothorpe · 10 months ago

Gorgeous! How do the worklouder pures compare to the stock keycaps?

Also, should you prioritize ergonomics over function or form, the Kinesis Advantage 360 Professional

porkloin · 10 months ago

Not sure if you're familiar with it, but Glove80 which the parent comment you were replying to is very similar to Kinesis boards (concave keywell, staggered columnar layout, etc.) but leverages a lot of the open source stuff like ZMK firmware that Kinesis doesn't support https://www.moergo.com/

Edit: nevermind, I just learned that the advantage360 pro uses ZMK as well. Either way, they both seem like great options for people who prioritize the ergonomics over aesthetics :)

okayishdefaults · 10 months ago

Why stop there when you could go for a Charybdis and get the purer form of zmk and a trackball option

szvsw · 10 months ago

I have the ZSA Moonlander and absolutely love it! Definitely recommend it!

tquinn · 10 months ago

My ideal keyboard would be taking a Magic keyboard (in black or space gray) and splitting it into two. This is the closest I have seen. I'm too committed to a standard layout to go ortho linear at this point, but I admit it looks the most sleek and modern for sure.

K7PJP · 10 months ago

> My ideal keyboard would be taking a Magic keyboard (in black or space gray) and splitting it into two.

Me, too. I feel there's a lot of us who want precisely this. I want every key that's on the Magic Keyboard. I already have a number of other Karabiner bindings, like the Hyper key, so I'm adding "layers" that way.