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creesch · 10 months ago
As someone from the Netherlands this was interesting to read. My one nitpick is that the author seems to switch between Berlin/Germany and the EU as a whole a few times making the reader think that some things might apply to the entire EU. Which isn't the case, this article is mostly about Germany and really specific to Berlin as well.

Some examples:

- Sunday shopping: Totally a thing here in the Netherlands.

- Smoking: A lot of people smoke here, but it certainly does feel like a lot less people than in Germany, and it certainly is allowed in fewer places.

- Alcohol: Yes, in the Netherlands you can also drink on the street. In Germany and Berlin specifically, it is also part of the drinking culture, it seems. Certainly Germany has a different drinking culture where there is much more strong liquor available in supermarkets where in the Netherlands you need to go to liquor stores or a special closed section of the supermarket.

Again, mostly nitpicks but worth enough to point out imho.

sebtron · 10 months ago
> - Sunday shopping: Totally a thing here in the Netherlands.

I guess it varies significantly by city then, because until a year ago or so the main shopping street here in Leiden was 90% shut on Sundays. More recently I have seen more and more shops stay open on Sunday too, not sure why they changed, but I am glad they did :)

raxxorraxor · 10 months ago
I thoroughly enjoy the silent Sundays. I don't know why so many people require Sunday to be open, especially if so many of them allegedly suffer from stress and a too "fast" lifestyle. Going out on Sundays here is awesome.

Yes, of course that requires people working too. Perhaps not fair for the many that need to work, but there are a few advantages.

creesch · 10 months ago
Fair, I should have clarified that I am mostly talking about supermarkets. These close fairly early in Germany on weekdays (where here they are often up until 9 in the evening) and are all closed on Sundays.
Semaphor · 10 months ago
> A friend once commented that they didn’t “feel European”

I see myself as 1. A Schleswig-Holsteiner (The norhernmost state in Germany) 2. European 3. German. There was an interesting map posted on reddit a while ago [0], showing which of the three different things people feel most attached to, I am apparently in the majority with my #1 pick up here.

I do feel European, but it’s just too abstract to be a primary identification.

[0]: https://i.redd.it/5iybkit5lf5b1.jpg

jwr · 10 months ago
Nothing makes you feel European like spending several months in the US.
mathverse · 10 months ago
Quite the opposite. It made me realize that if the US took better stewardship of Eastern Europe we would all be better off.

I feel more connected to americans and their way of life than Germans.

klausa · 10 months ago
I do _feel_ european, and I think that's the closest I actually self-identify in some way; but I would also never answer a question like "where are you from?" with "Europe" or something like this?

Feels pretentious, and not what the person is probably asking!

albertzeyer · 10 months ago
When someone asks "where are you from", you are usually trying to guess what you can tell them that is most exact which they still know. Usually that's the country. Or if it is a big city (Paris, Berlin or so), you might also tell that, otherwise not. If there is a chance they might not have heard about the country (but quite unlikely, unless it's maybe a small country, and you are in a very different part of the world), then I think Europe might be the best answer.

But this is anyway not the same question as "what do you identify with" (at least I would not interpret it that way). You might want to expand by answering that as well though, depending who you speak with.

ferbivore · 10 months ago
I do this sometimes to avoid invoking any stereotypes. Telling someone which country you're from opens you up to "of course that's what an X would say" replies, or worse.
icemanx · 10 months ago
as German I never felt European and neither do I know any german that feels so. Germany is the only country in europe where patriotism is considered right-wing and not seen well, in other countries there is indeed a national consent / identity, people are patriots and proud of that (poland, spain, italy, romania, albania, turkey, ...). You will definitely not get any any "we are all europeans <3" vibes there. The concept of being an "european" is a woke leftist mindset that you will encounter mostly in Berlin but it is what it is -> a woke idea and not reality
albertzeyer · 10 months ago
I guess we are all in our own bubble, but in my circle of friends (all in Germany), it is rather the opposite: I and many of my friends feel quite European, and don't identify at all as being a German. I would consider myself even quite anti-patriotic. E.g. I would be quite happy if we can get rid of the countries (Germany etc) and have one unified big Europe (or EU) country, similar as USA. And this is not such an unusual view. You will definitely get many "we are all europeans" vibes. I think you will mostly see this in all the bigger cities and also all the university cities. Esp among students, this is very common.
ballooney · 10 months ago
Just to be clear incase the other replies haven’t made it so, you are definitely, definitely completely wrong about this and continuing to think this way will cause you to misunderstand the world you live in and make mistaken decisions. I have lived in several European countries and they all have a sect of loud delicate people pretending they are victims and persecuted for wanting to be patriots.
em-bee · 10 months ago
you are contradicting yourself. patriotism being considered right wing is exactly why germans prefer to feel european. and it's not only germany, everywhere else in europe too people consider german patriotism as rightwing.

while i lived in germany, when i traveled abroad telling people i live in germany the reaction was noticeably different compared to later when i moved to austria.

people outside of germany assume that germans are as patriotic as they are for their own country. combined that with hate crimes in germany making headlines and you can easily see how people think about germans.

when angela merkel welcomed all refugees during the syria crisis it was the first time i felt proud to have lived there. (officially recognizing dual citizenship was the second. you can say what you want about germans, but at least their laws in this area are developing in the right direction. they recently made it easier to get german citizenship too)

Toorkit · 10 months ago
>Germany is the only country in europe where patriotism is considered right-wing and not seen well

Unless it's soccer time, then they're clad in flags and screaming "'SCHLAAAND!"

groestl · 10 months ago
> Germany is the only country in europe where patriotism is considered right-wing and not seen well

Nah, not exactly. Source: Am Austrian.

voytec · 10 months ago
Poland's right-wing is pushing nationalism and anti-EU propaganda under the guise of patriotism. The word lost its original meaning since pre-1991 communist era.
Semaphor · 10 months ago
You already showed in your other, deservedly dead, comment that you have no idea what you are talking about (e.g. claiming Bildungsurlaub does not exist, despite one easily being able to look up the relevant laws), so keep your lack of knowledge to yourself and troll somewhere else.
jasonvorhe · 10 months ago
I don't understand what all this "I feel X" is supposed to mean.

Is there anything left of some true national cultural heritage that hasn't been made into a tourist attraction or some kind of mockery of what it once may have stood for? Probably, but not in a way that would bring me to identify myself with it.

And why would I even feel "European"? The EU is just as democratic as most of its member states. If you're not part of the wealthy upper class you don't matter.

The European Commission is calling the shots, members are forced to favor European interests and it's currently chaired by Ursula von der Leyen of the Albrecht family whose track record features internet censorship, incompetence in running a national military, plagiarism of her dissertation and being a NATO hawk and someone being investigated for corruption due to shady deals with Pfizer during the pandemic.

nox101 · 10 months ago
Many of these do not match my experience or knowledge

Crime: Berliner's tell me "don't put your backpack between your legs while sitting at a restaurant, someone will sneak up behind and steal it". I don't know where in the USA that kind of theft is common.

Washing: While I do have a dryer, my American apartment has a Whirlpool HG washer. It's quiet and spins the water out to the point I often feel I don't need the drier

Service: My experience has been if there's a problem that clearly the fault of the company the person you talk to will immediately not take responsibility "Not my fault". It might not be their personal fault but as a representative of the company they should take responsibility on behalf of the company IMO.

Dating: I've been told my many Germans that dating in Germany is more serious than is at least depicted in US movies/tv-shows. I don't have specifics except being told that it's not as casual.

Alcohol: Claims it's better in Europe but is making a generalization. Sweden you can only buy Alcohol from government stores. It's super expensive and they close early (3pm IIRC). So if you wanted some beers for party or a bottle of wine for dinner you're S.O.L. if you didn't buy on your lunch break.

Bread: Claims the choices are limited where as Germany claims to be the bread capital of the world with over 3000 kinds. I'm not saying I agree or disagree that Germany is the bread capital. Only that apparently the author is in a bread desert if their bread choices are limited.

https://www.google.com/search?q=germany+the+bread+capital

alkonaut · 10 months ago
> Sweden you can only buy Alcohol from government stores. It's super expensive and they close early (3pm IIRC). So if you wanted some beers for party or a bottle of wine for dinner you're S.O.L. if you didn't buy on your lunch break.

I think the article makes the mistake of generalizing things that doesn't generalize across Europe, or even the EU. It's a common mistake among Americans to think of Europe as a very similar area and not wildly different countries. Germany and Sweden I'd say are much less similar than say Canada or the US in most respects. Not least when it comes to bureaucracy, the use of paper, formal titles etc. Completely different. Alcohol can be bought in store until 7pm or 8pm in Sweden (but closes earlier on Saturdays and is closed on Sundays). Weird rules are everywhere though. Americans don't tend to find it strange they can't drink in bars at 18, for example.

> Berliner's tell me "don't put your backpack between your legs while sitting at a restaurant, someone will sneak up behind and steal it".

I think this is more a representation of how cautious people are of a particular crime, than how common a particular crime is.

wink · 10 months ago
There are several tiny things where you notice the OP only has lived in Berlin and not in different places in Germany, but if you substitute some "most of" with "often/sometimes" I could mostly agree to things, or it's really pedantic.
keiferski · 10 months ago
Berlin is weirdly very bad at bread, and I don’t know why. Even the fancy hip places are terrible.

Source: went from Paris to Amsterdam to Berlin to Warsaw this summer, and thought Paris (obviously) had the best bread, followed by Warsaw and Amsterdam, with Berlin way, way behind.

Deleted Comment

gman83 · 10 months ago
> Gas prices are double or even triple what they are in the US. It’s ok, the economy isn’t collapsing.

The Economist about Germany's economy: "a national business model build in part on cheap energy from one autocracy and abundant demand from another (China) faces a severe test". Combine the cutting off from Russian gas with shutting down all nuclear power plants, and you do have something like a collapse of the economy, at least a significant decline in its industrial output.

Topfi · 10 months ago
I believe the Economist talking about gas as in LNG and the author is talking about gas as in gasoline/petrol, likely pocking at this indicator role for economies state the latter tends to have taken on in wider coverage [0] both because it does indeed impact nearly all transactions even before we talk about individual transport, but also because it is one of the few commodities whose price the average person is faced with regularly. Here in Central Europe, no matter how our vs the US economy does, we have always been paying multiples for our fuel, though that didn't automatically mean collapse even if it feels that way to some.

Point of the author being, higher gas prices can't be directly compared between economies and all that so shouldn't be used to paint EEA members as these economic hellscapes (which always get a chuckle from me), though sudden and severe upward or downward movements could hint at a wider trend.

As someone from one of the DACH countries, it was honestly a nice read and I get their points on concepts like Überweisung, though I will say, if the author was surprised how one opens a Ritter Sport, they should take a look at the official way to open Haribo [1]. Then there is Mannerschnitte [2]. Also, yes, publicly founded mental health care requires significant improvements.

[0] https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0511/how-gas-pri...

[1] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/a45SHoe6fPM

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNmsiuGe4_s

Micanthus · 10 months ago
I think the author means gasoline/petrol for cars, not natural gas
tpm · 10 months ago
> The Economist about Germany's economy

Yes but that's about industrial (natural gas) prices, not consumer (natural gas) prices. They can be very different.

> with shutting down all nuclear power plants

With shutting down the last 3 (I think) nuclear power plants. The nuclear shutdown process started in 2000. They had plenty of time to invest in enough replacement capacity, but didn't. And it was quite clear at least since 2009 that Russia is not a serious partner, so again, they had plenty of time, and did nothing.

Pepe1vo · 10 months ago
While the factors you mention may (or may not) cause Germany to dip into a recession in the near future, calling it a "collapse of the economy" is of course gross hyperbole. Boom and bust cycles are an expected and well studied feature of developed economies.
ilikerashers · 10 months ago
Germany is in serious trouble. The US and China are in protectionist markets. EU is starting to realise their labour and manufacturing are expensive and not unique anymore. The business model is broken.
keiferski · 10 months ago
I think the best analogy to American-European identity is: there exists a certain class of well-off, well-traveled people that indeed thinks of themselves as being more European than [nationality], and they tend to be centered in the Netherlands, Belgium, etc. and radiating outward from there. However is is a very small group and probably about the same size as the group of people that live in both New York and Florida/California and think of themselves as not really a “local” (in the negative sense, from their perspective) of either place.

The average person in Europe absolutely doesn’t think of themselves as being a member of Europe first and [country] second, and I think people would be surprised how actual little interaction and cross-language discussion there is between say, France and Poland, even though both are in the EU. There is much more of a French cultural universe, German cultural universe, Polish cultural universe, etc.

The current structure of the EU pretty much caters entirely to that first group identifying as European first (at least in an identity-forming sense - I don’t mean economically) and so the prospect of a bloc-wide identity like “American” is in America seems extremely unlikely to me. In fact I think they are closer to being Americanized culturally than Europeanized.

ttepasse · 10 months ago
I'm always surprised that people see multilayered identities as something that you have to divide into first and second or prioritise among them.

In a smaller context: Being German and NRW'ler and in the Ruhr area are not a hierarchy. I don't have to choose between them. Similar to European: Although I'm not well-off, it's just part of the pudding.

In Computer terms: Identities seem for me less that a directory hierarchy, more like labels or tags.

mytailorisrich · 10 months ago
Even the ruling elite consider themselves French/German/etc first but it is fashionable to publicly claim otherwise. The EU is good at projecting an image but behind the scene it is a ferocious power struggle among member states that boils down to relative power (hence Germany tends to win, especially since Brexit) as it has always been.
keiferski · 10 months ago
True but I am thinking more of their children that have grown up in the last ~30 years in this bloc-wide EU project, and less their parents currently in power. Basically people that read Monocle magazine.
raxxorraxor · 10 months ago
Even people very convinced of the EU don't really think of themselves as European first. Try to ask them where they come from when the EU is not a topic and you get the real answer.

There is no overreaching European media that could form stronger bonds. Cultures and languages are too diverse and that is probably the main difference to the US.

Ekaros · 10 months ago
I think there is thinking of European as continent level. That is Europeans are not say Asian or African, or neither Americans. So at global scale, we are one group distinct from other continentals groups. If those continents even have any shared belonging in a group. But we certainly are not them.
lifestyleguru · 10 months ago
> there exists a certain class of well-off, well-traveled people that indeed thinks of themselves as being more European than [nationality], and they tend to be centered in the Netherlands, Belgium

Ah yeah, the "Trust Fund, 6’5, Blue Eyes" blokes and their fiancees. Hopefully they'll choke with Masdaamer during techno party on their yachts.

fedeb95 · 10 months ago
from EU: left and right are pretty volatile concept, they don't apply the same worldwide. Simply because all parties (nearly) accept public healthcare in a country, doesn't mean that country is more "left" than another.
devjab · 10 months ago
It’s more of an American concept which has unfortunately spread. Which is sort of silly considering that virtually every European country has several political parties, some is which sometimes form government coalitions across “the middle”.

In Denmark we currently have a government formed of what has been the two major political parties in Denmark for the past few decades + a third. During the election one would be leading the “blue side”, the other leading the “red side”. So it was sort of hilarious when they joined to form a government and the media graphics didn’t work. Of course after a couple or days they just kept the “red” vs “blue” thing and started talking about when it would fall apart and how they were still “enemies” despite being in a joint government.

That being said, it is sort of true to say that most European countries are much more “left” leaning than the US. In Denmark the US Democratic Party would be to the far right of 94% of the votes for political parties cast here.

Certhas · 10 months ago
Left and right as concepts actually originated in the french revolution. When seating the parties in an assembly you have to go with some order from left to right.

Of course what the political tribes are, and what their actual positions are changes. Republicans went from the party of Lincoln to the party of Trump.

crote · 10 months ago
> So it was sort of hilarious when they joined to form a government and the media graphics didn’t work.

In The Netherlands the media solved this by calling it a "purple government". They ruled from 1994 to 2002.

nelox · 10 months ago
Indeed, you touch upon a crucial point that is often overlooked in political discourse. The simplistic transplantation of ‘left’ and ‘right’ labels across different countries is not just misleading; it’s intellectually negligent. The political spectrum is not a one-size-fits-all template that neatly categorises societies based on a single policy like public healthcare. In many European nations, universal healthcare is a settled matter - a consensus that transcends traditional partisan divides. To assume that this places a country further to the ‘left’ ignores the complex historical, cultural, and social nuances that shape each nation’s political landscape.
uniqueuid · 10 months ago
Although you probably agree: If someone wants to describe politics with a one-dimensional scale, left-right is not so bad. And that's why and how it developed.
onetoo · 10 months ago
Also from EU, additional tidbit: Not being a first-past-the-post two-party system allows for political parties to be more nuanced than a simplified left-right spectrum.
Wytwwww · 10 months ago
> Not being a first-past-the-post two-party

It depends on the country though. France is effectively first-past-the-post. Technically (rarely in practice) you can even get 3-4 candidates in the second round if the turnout is very high.

Two-round is not fundamentally a huge improvement and de facto is what US has with party primaries (of course unlike in France third parties can't really survive in such a system).

Arguably of course having a three way stalemate might be occasionally preferable than 1 party having near absolute control because of controlling 50%+1 seats.

Thankfully US has all sorts of checks and balances and it might take a while for a single party to get control of the House, Senate, White House and the Supreme court (for instance in the UK where there are basically no checks an balances and the parliament has absolute power if a pseudo-Fascist party somehow managed to win they could more or less do anything they wanted and they'd only need 30-40% of all votes for that).

IMHO electoral systems matter but extreme polarization is the real problem. Back in the 70s even a Republican president like Nixon could somewhat effectively work with the Democrat controlled congress. Yet now a split congress can't even pass legislation that technically both parties support (e.g. the border billy)

mytailorisrich · 10 months ago
Left and right are political concepts that have broadly held since they were created in the French Revolution (with the names originating to where the people were sitting in Parliament) and still shape politics today.

In France, the main change occurred during the 19th century that started with the right being more Monarchist and the left staunchly Republican and ended with basically everyone being Republican.

But overall, right and left do mean something and that is still the case throughout Europe and the world and the difference are mainly relative to the centre.

wheels · 10 months ago
I'd actually say the US is moving in the direction of Europe -- historically "left" in the US was social-democratic, whereas "right" was classical liberalism (again, these labels get wonky across cultures -- what Americans call libertarianism). That US picture does at least point to two different ends of something that's basically the same spectrum.

In Europe "left" mostly means socialist, and "right" mostly means nationalist. But socialism and nationalism aren't opposites, and can often go together, so you see things like the author of this article pointing out that the "right" doesn't want to completely dismantle the social safety net.

The US is, however, in the process of realigning to the European style.

Wytwwww · 10 months ago
Historically most countries Europe had generally been "tripartite". With progressive and/or classical liberals in a weird spot between left-right. But even then I think it get's very messy when we leave Britain.

Traditionally in most continental countries you usually had two major (social-capitalist/paternalist) Christian Democrats and some Social Democrat style parties. But in reality they often shared more with each other than with various fringe left(Communist, radical-socialist), right(reactionary conservative but almost (pseudo-modernist) Fascists) parties all of which usually had some weird-missmash of traditionally left and right policies.

e.g. Weimar Germany was an extreme example republic where it was Christian Democrats + Socialists + Liberals vs everyone else regardless of exact social/economic policies. But modern France, Italy and Germany are kind of similar (of course both the fringe and the centrist parties are still thankfully a lot more moderate).

I guess you can fit all of the on a single left-right axis if you squint hard enough but you'd really need 2-3 axes to get a somewhat accurate/meaningful picture.

jltsiren · 10 months ago
In Europe, "right" usually means EPP, or center-right. Their member parties may call themselves conservatives, christian democrats, the national coalition, or something like that. They tend to be economically similar to US Democrats but often less progressive.

Then there is S&D, or center-left, with their members typically calling themselves social democrats or socialists. They are another big traditional mainstream group. And even the ones who call themselves socialists are more like social democrats.

The third traditional mainstream group is currently called Renew Europe, which consists mostly of various centrist / social liberal parties. Some of which are socially quite conservative.

Then there are usually two center-left to left, mostly progressive / liberal, mostly environmentalist parties. The differences between them vary from country to country. Their current groups at the EU level call themselves Greens and The Left. Some actual socialists exist within these groups, but they tend to be mostly harmless weirdos who didn't get the message that the 80s already ended.

The conservative / nationalist right mostly emerged in the last ~15 years. They often resemble US Republicans. Their EU level groups tend to split and merge all the time, because they often make very different conclusions from the same ideological positions due to historical and geopolitical reasons. Such as whether Putin is a good guy or a bad guy.

drooopy · 10 months ago
Depending on who you ask, the EU is both a far left, communist hellhole and a far right neoliberal, capitalist hellhole.
devjab · 10 months ago
Most of Europe is varying degrees of Social Democracy. We pretend we have conservatives, socialists, “climatists”? communists, neoliberals, populists and so on, but for the most parts it’s all just Social Democratic parties with a flavour.
rglullis · 10 months ago
"Right before left" is totally a thing in Brazil as well, and IMO quite sensible if you treat it as conflict resolution method: if you are crossing or merging onto a "faster" road you yield, if you are on the faster road you have priority, and "right before left" is just a tie-breaker in case you are on a road or street of the same class.

Things I am a bit surprised which were not talked about: "right turn on red" is a totally American thing that used to trip my (US resident, car loving) mom, and the amount of cars parked on the curb.

dchest · 10 months ago
This rule is part of the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic, so it applies to many countries indeed (including Brazil, which is a signatory).
niemandhier · 10 months ago
On tipping: Try giving a tip to people not regularly receiving one e.g the “Dönnerperson”. Since tips are non obligatory these people usually are extremely happy about it.

In tested the hypothesis that Dönner is larger when visiting a place where I tipped before and measured 10%-15% increase in weight ( 5 places, 3 Döner each, weight difference between fist and third).

kwanbix · 10 months ago
A Döner costs betwen 5 and 10. If you tip between 1 or 2 euros, you are paying about 20% more. So 10%~15% increase seems about expected at least mathematically.

But still, do not promote tiping culture. It sucks.

niemandhier · 10 months ago
I can buy bigger, but it’s hard to buy better. Tipping people that don’t expect it makes them happy and well inclined.

There is so many ways the quality of what you get can be modified:

Is the meat fresh from the spit or is it already cut off at the plate below or even in the little box at the side ?

Do you get the tomato slices from the from or the back?

Hot sauce from the shelf or from the side stash?

The funny thing is, it really only works if the tip makes you stand out positively.

So, yes please don’t tip, so my little hack keeps working.

Disclosure: I had the displeasure of being forced to work at a kebab Imbiss.

onetoo · 10 months ago
Not from Berlin, but I imagine it is similar: It is usually the case that the more shady your "kebab pusher" is, the more delicious the kebab is.

If the sign says one price, the cashier says a second, and the cash register says a third? You've found the best kebab in town.

Ekaros · 10 months ago
So bribes work. I wonder if same would work with police in USA, slip them some money. Or maybe judge, in early hearing hand them envelope as tip for their services. Would that change the later outcomes of cases?
ngalaiko · 10 months ago
it’s called lobbying
anal_reactor · 10 months ago
> Try giving a tip

No. Tipping is bullshit and you won't convince me otherwise. When I go a restaurant I want to have a nice experience, not deal with a pushy waiter begging me for a tip like a Syrian refugee begging for a coin because he hasn't eaten in days. "But if I tip I get a bigger kebab" yes, and you ruin the experience for everyone else because you teach service providers that displaying one price but actually charging another is a good business practice. If you want a bigger kebab, why don't you just pick it from the menu?

mrmlz · 10 months ago
They should give me a discount for being well behaved in their restaurant.

Tipping culture is horrible.

concerndc1tizen · 10 months ago
That's not a tip, that's a bribe.