The SNOO is cheaply made and poorly engineered despite the incredibly high price- and there isn't much to it. It should cost ~$45, not the $1695 it actually costs.
I recently rebuilt a used snoo myself for my newborn nephew, and was shocked to see that it is built to move everything on rubber rollers, and those rollers use the wrong material, so they both slip and grind to dust quickly.
That said- it works. I would have given my right arm for one when my son was newborn and had "colic" and would literally scream continuously from 10pm to 4am everyday for months. I was up all night holding him by myself, using the method developed by Dr. Harvey Karp (who later founded SNOO)- which is exactly what the SNOO copies and replicates automatically, which is the only thing that would calm him. It was exhausting, and I started to hallucinate frequently, and make dangerously bad decisions from lack of sleep. I think the SNOO would have saved me.
We borrowed a snoo and set it all up before giving birth - everything was ready. Come home from the hospital with a one day old and it refuses to connect to the app. At some point after spending 45 min debugging and resetting the device I realized how awful this experience was. Internet of shit.
"never buy hardware that requires a cell phone app to use" can be a frustrating and expensive lesson. At least you didn't have to pay for it with money.
For people criticizing me for saying "it should cost $45" - that is based on what it actually costs for a lower end electric baby swing with sound[1], which is not fundamentally simpler or cheaper to make than the SNOO. I'm just guesstimating what a device of this (very low) quality would actually cost on the open market, if it weren't uniquely effective and patented, which it is.
I'm fine with them charging a lot for a unique invention that works better, but irked that they didn't then give it decent build quality.
It astounds me how much money people a willing to spend on crap like this. I mean, thank you for keeping the economy running, but also how do you afford to keep doing it?
My extremely frugal friends bought one when their second came. It’s a night and day difference for them. They can actually live and enjoy a life instead of being constantly hounded by an infant that keeps them up all night.
Don't dismiss something you don't understand the need for. Even fairly poor people buy these when they can barely afford it because they need it, and there is no realistic alternative.
It effectively solves a desperate problem for people in a desperate situation so they can actually sleep and not go crazy and lose their jobs or get hurt (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41286547). Humans evolved to have lots of baby caretakers, and sometimes newborn babies need to be held and rocked almost continuously- yet not everyone has that kind of help available.
When my sister got one I couldn't believe the incredible disdain from older, non-working family members who raised their kids with the help of a big community that she had no way to access. These same family members that did not step in to help take care of the baby.
> built to move everything on rubber rollers, and those rollers use the wrong material, so they both slip and grind to dust quickly.
Sounds like it was designed deliberately to reduce the aftermarket supply. Maybe the first person can sell it, but avoiding the creation of a robust secondary market has been the dream of a great many MBAs.
Or just wast built to the correct tolerances. We loved our Snoo but it had a life of about 4 months before our son grew out of it. It doesn't feel like those rollers need more than a year or two of life, even with multiple owners.
You can get regular bassinets everywhere, and they're pretty much all "better" and "cheaper" but none will have the function the SNOO has of rocking the baby in a certain way, along with a certain sound, that is claimed to mimic the movement and sound of the womb, and is clearly extremely calming. You can do it with just your hands using instructions from "the happiest baby on the block" video, also made by the owner and inventor of SNOO.
If you can afford it, get a plain untreated wood crib/bassinet with a natural fiber flame retardant free mattress. I posted elsewhere in this thread about the theory that flame retardants might contribute to SIDS, and the plain wood is based on the fact that kids will chew on it, and get particles of paint or plastic in their mouth otherwise.
>It was exhausting, and I started to hallucinate frequently, and make dangerously bad decisions from lack of sleep.
The Western (American, especially) approach to early infant care is mind-boggling. In many cultures and nations, often those less "developed", parents suffer little sleep deprivation.
Westerners will pay small fortunes for a cloud subscription bassinet but can't create the basics of a functioning community.
> Westerners will pay small fortunes for a cloud subscription bassinet but can't create the basics of a functioning community.
That is incredibly insulting, what would you have done in my situation specifically?
How the heck can you "create the basics of a functioning community" when you're struggling just to keep a baby alive and haven't slept in two weeks? People in those other cultures didn't create the culture, they were born into it.
The only place I could find work to support my newborn was 1000 miles away from my family and friends. The mom had serious postpartum depression and rage, and generally refused to help take care of our child. She was aggressive and abusive, and locked herself in a room for days on end so I was 100% on my own while trying not to lose my job. I begged people for help and advice but got only disdain "if you're having a hard time you need to just relax" and "parenting is easy for dads! they just play and the mom does it all!" There were no open spots in any kind of childcare around my house- they said "apply before you decide to have a kid." I had done so- but the person at the counter pocketed the deposit and quit. I eventually paid 110% of my salary for a nanny to help me, and burned through all my savings just to survive.
Now that I had this experience, I go out of my way to be there- by airplane if necessary for family and friends that need it.
> Westerners will pay small fortunes for a cloud subscription bassinet but can't create the basics of a functioning community.
What a weird way to phrase things. It has been systematically dismantled and taken away from them over the last few centuries by a relatively minuscule group of people with vested interests.
One of the big problems with American culture surrounding infant care these days is that a vocal group of well-meaning but misguided people persuaded everyone that letting a baby cry themselves to sleep is abuse that will ruin them for life.
Our oldest was inconsolable at bedtimes. We tried every kind of hold, rocking, swings, swaddles, nothing worked. None of us were sleeping for the first two weeks.
Finally and with much guilt my wife finally tried one last thing: leaving him to cry in the bassinet. Lo and behold, he was asleep within five minutes and slept longer than he had in his life. That became our routine: we put him down, he cried himself to sleep, then he woke up happy in a few hours.
I don't know who came up with the idea that babies shouldn't cry alone ever, but I strongly suspect that's the culprit that spurs demand for these products.
I can assure you that the esame exact problem still exists in tightly knit communities. It's just that the burden is put on the grandparents or siblings. Even in those communities (I'm from one), it sucks to take care of a baby and anything that helps is used and there are tons of "oral knowledge" sort of tricks to calm down a baby or an infant. So this would still be incredibly useful regardless of how communal your life and social network is.
Do you think that those communities haven't adopted the modern diaper just because hey, the community takes care of their babies together? Because that's absolutely not the case (if they can afford to).
I can't even imagine spending $1700 on a bassinet in the first place. As the article notes, this thing gets used for ~5 months (6 if you're really pushing it) at which point the kid is done. If you're going to have another kid then you put it into storage for a few years before it gets a second round of 5 months of use (assuming the company you bought your smart bassinet from doesn't brick it in the interim).
At its simplest, it's a tiny bed on wheels and you can pick one up for free from a local parent. If you want to get really fancy you can get a self-rocking bassinet for <$400.
Who are these people who are willing to spend $1700 on a bassinet but then get outraged when the clearly-exploitative company decides to exploit them for another $100?
The aftermarket for these things means that the cost winds up being split between multiple parties in a lot of cases.
Anecdotally, most parents within my circle bought their Snoo used and sold it after use. I bought an unopened snoo from facebook marketplace for $X and sold it after 6 months for $X-200.
I was a little annoyed that Happiest Baby is meddling with the resale value (because I was expecting to be able to sell it on after a few months of use)
IMO even though the product is overpriced, I'd have happily paid 5k for the extra sleep I believe it gave me.
It would be an interesting case study on pricing and transaction costs to look at how much the resale value changes.
Does it go down by the $100 people will have to pay in subscriptions? will it go down by more than that because people dont want to bother with the subscription as an extra cost?
I question even using it past 2 months. That's around when babies begin to learn to roll over. Swaddling past 2 months has resulted in deaths. I know that you Velcro the baby down with the Snoo, but I wouldn't feel comfortable putting off that milestone for long. As babies learn to roll, they strengthen their neck muscles. This allows them to safely sleep on their stomachs eventually.
My wife's employer got us a rental for all of our kids. We had twins and it was amazing for them but around 3-4 months they were out of it and we returned it early. With our singleton, it didn't work at all. Kid hated it from day 1. We returned it after 3 weeks so that it wasn't eating up space in our bedroom.
The market is saturated. Four years ago we could buy a new one for $1300 or buy used on Craigslist for $800. We went with Craigslist, and resold six months later for $900 (not a typo).
The bassinet is well-made so it would be silly to throw it out after 2-3 kids. The fact that the resellers are other parents makes me trust a little more that they aren’t selling a broken/dirty bassinet, so why buy new for double the cost?
It depends. One of my rules is to never buy a secondhand mattress and I definitely wouldn’t buy one for my baby. I’m not sure off the mattress comes with this bassinet or not.
This article mentions that the Snoo was designed to prevent SIDS, but the number one factor predicting SIDS is a used mattress... and interventional studies have proven it is not caused by other confounding factors like poor familes or second children being more likely to have used mattresses- It can be prevented with a new mattress or non-permeable mattress cover.
The Snoo has an integrated mattress in a non-standard size, but you can buy new replacements from the manufacturer.
I took a look at the features that are locked out and they seem reasonable to be behind a subscription as they require costs to maintain. Almost all of the features that do not require some sort of cloud service connection seem to remain free. It's also free for people who use the rental option.
Backlash is also understandable as they are changing the status quo.
Disclosure: We rented a Snoo and it was made a huge difference between our first (no Snoo) and second child.
I think the backlash is overblown because they are only changing the status quo for new purchases with advance notice. Everybody else is grandfathered in.
It is pretty hard to empathize with the people who are complaining but buying the device anyways. Nobody is holding a gun to their head and making them purchase one.
About half of those premium features should not require a server or company-borne "costs to maintain." This seems like a pure cash grab: what subscription will the market bear?
What? Almost none of those features require costs to maintain:
- Car Ride Mode - adds extra bounces
- Level Lock - don't change rhythm
- Sleepytime Sounds - play sounds before and after sleep
and so on.
The only ones I can see? Tracking, Sleep Logs (but I'd also argue that given that this is a smart device, I'd say that they could be expected baselines).
But as for the other, without being argumentative, I am sincerely struggling why it seems reasonable to you that "extra bounces", etc. are a Premium "subscription" feature.
I'm not sure I understand the $1700 price tag. Self rocking bassinets can be had for a couple hundred dollars. Many have the same functionality, with cry detection and white noise capabilities. They also don't require the use of an app, it's just a self contained unit. Where is the 500% upcharge going?
Right but the comment you are replying to is making the argument that the same functionality, and the same increase in sleep, can be had for a fraction of the cost.
"like the snoo" appears to be the sticking point. What specific features do you think that A) are important for helping a baby sleep and B) are only found on the snoo?
I've never used the snoo or any other self-rocking bassinet (luckily my daughter is a decently good sleeper on her own), but this product [0] certainly looks like it's pretty similar for a fraction of the price, and it's even from a known brand.
Just google "self rocking bassinet", but that is also why I asked - so if you are confident enough to say it's not true, then please explain.
Does it just come down to a different controller/set of algorithms for governing the rocking/white noise capabilities? The product itself doesn't seem to cost $1700 dollars to produce - it seems to be a bassinet on rollers with a motor attached that can play sound.
I'm so fed up with Internet of Shit stuff that these days if I need some random thing like a cradle rocker I'll first check to see if there's a DIY Arduino-based solution out there. In this case, sure enough, there is:
I made a DIY rocker for my son in 2 minutes at home when he was born... I took a breast milk pump that has an oscillatory vacuum, hooked it to a large syringe used for marine epoxy, and taped the syringe to one end of a removable car seat that had a curved rocking bottom.
A simple rocker or swing isn't as effective as a snoo, however.
> sensors that detect when the baby is crying and simulates the sounds of the womb to help keep babies
I realize this may come off as a bit insensitive but isn't this taking away a chance to bond with your child? Children not being physically held enough at young age has lifelong implications
> I realize this may come off as a bit insensitive but isn't this taking away a chance to bond with your child?
Having a Snoo doesn’t mean you never hold your child. Newborns provide many such opportunities. You don’t need to take them all. See the comment above about a newborn that needed this for 6 hours a night for months.
> Children not being physically held enough at young age has lifelong implications
Citation needed? This is the sort of thing that people use to argue against sleep training, too, but I don’t believe much evidence has been found for that.
> Citation needed? This is the sort of thing that people use to argue against sleep training, too, but I don’t believe much evidence has been found for that.
The first 3 months after my daughter was born I slept next to her while she was in this. If she was hungry or needed a change she'd let me know. This helped her sleep and helped the rest of us get some rest as well.
Readit News
I recently rebuilt a used snoo myself for my newborn nephew, and was shocked to see that it is built to move everything on rubber rollers, and those rollers use the wrong material, so they both slip and grind to dust quickly.
That said- it works. I would have given my right arm for one when my son was newborn and had "colic" and would literally scream continuously from 10pm to 4am everyday for months. I was up all night holding him by myself, using the method developed by Dr. Harvey Karp (who later founded SNOO)- which is exactly what the SNOO copies and replicates automatically, which is the only thing that would calm him. It was exhausting, and I started to hallucinate frequently, and make dangerously bad decisions from lack of sleep. I think the SNOO would have saved me.
When I say "appeal" I mean to the company, not to the customer, of course.
I'm fine with them charging a lot for a unique invention that works better, but irked that they didn't then give it decent build quality.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Bright-Starts-Paradise-Portable-Autom...
It’s worth every penny to them.
It effectively solves a desperate problem for people in a desperate situation so they can actually sleep and not go crazy and lose their jobs or get hurt (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41286547). Humans evolved to have lots of baby caretakers, and sometimes newborn babies need to be held and rocked almost continuously- yet not everyone has that kind of help available.
When my sister got one I couldn't believe the incredible disdain from older, non-working family members who raised their kids with the help of a big community that she had no way to access. These same family members that did not step in to help take care of the baby.
Sounds like it was designed deliberately to reduce the aftermarket supply. Maybe the first person can sell it, but avoiding the creation of a robust secondary market has been the dream of a great many MBAs.
If you can afford it, get a plain untreated wood crib/bassinet with a natural fiber flame retardant free mattress. I posted elsewhere in this thread about the theory that flame retardants might contribute to SIDS, and the plain wood is based on the fact that kids will chew on it, and get particles of paint or plastic in their mouth otherwise.
Deleted Comment
- manufacturing cost
- manufacturer margin
- marketing
- labor
- insurance
- income taxes
- retailer margin
- customer support
- etc.
But yeah, $1695 seems excessive.
Dead Comment
He was breast fed, and only rarely used a bottle... and when we did we used high temperature water only sterilization, never soap.
The reason he was crying is most likely that he was a big baby, and wasn't getting enough milk initially.
The Western (American, especially) approach to early infant care is mind-boggling. In many cultures and nations, often those less "developed", parents suffer little sleep deprivation.
Westerners will pay small fortunes for a cloud subscription bassinet but can't create the basics of a functioning community.
That is incredibly insulting, what would you have done in my situation specifically?
How the heck can you "create the basics of a functioning community" when you're struggling just to keep a baby alive and haven't slept in two weeks? People in those other cultures didn't create the culture, they were born into it.
The only place I could find work to support my newborn was 1000 miles away from my family and friends. The mom had serious postpartum depression and rage, and generally refused to help take care of our child. She was aggressive and abusive, and locked herself in a room for days on end so I was 100% on my own while trying not to lose my job. I begged people for help and advice but got only disdain "if you're having a hard time you need to just relax" and "parenting is easy for dads! they just play and the mom does it all!" There were no open spots in any kind of childcare around my house- they said "apply before you decide to have a kid." I had done so- but the person at the counter pocketed the deposit and quit. I eventually paid 110% of my salary for a nanny to help me, and burned through all my savings just to survive.
Now that I had this experience, I go out of my way to be there- by airplane if necessary for family and friends that need it.
What a weird way to phrase things. It has been systematically dismantled and taken away from them over the last few centuries by a relatively minuscule group of people with vested interests.
Our oldest was inconsolable at bedtimes. We tried every kind of hold, rocking, swings, swaddles, nothing worked. None of us were sleeping for the first two weeks.
Finally and with much guilt my wife finally tried one last thing: leaving him to cry in the bassinet. Lo and behold, he was asleep within five minutes and slept longer than he had in his life. That became our routine: we put him down, he cried himself to sleep, then he woke up happy in a few hours.
I don't know who came up with the idea that babies shouldn't cry alone ever, but I strongly suspect that's the culprit that spurs demand for these products.
Do you think that those communities haven't adopted the modern diaper just because hey, the community takes care of their babies together? Because that's absolutely not the case (if they can afford to).
Thanks for that primer on private enterprise…
At its simplest, it's a tiny bed on wheels and you can pick one up for free from a local parent. If you want to get really fancy you can get a self-rocking bassinet for <$400.
Who are these people who are willing to spend $1700 on a bassinet but then get outraged when the clearly-exploitative company decides to exploit them for another $100?
Anecdotally, most parents within my circle bought their Snoo used and sold it after use. I bought an unopened snoo from facebook marketplace for $X and sold it after 6 months for $X-200.
I was a little annoyed that Happiest Baby is meddling with the resale value (because I was expecting to be able to sell it on after a few months of use)
IMO even though the product is overpriced, I'd have happily paid 5k for the extra sleep I believe it gave me.
Does it go down by the $100 people will have to pay in subscriptions? will it go down by more than that because people dont want to bother with the subscription as an extra cost?
The bassinet is well-made so it would be silly to throw it out after 2-3 kids. The fact that the resellers are other parents makes me trust a little more that they aren’t selling a broken/dirty bassinet, so why buy new for double the cost?
They are a victim of their own success.
Deleted Comment
The Snoo has an integrated mattress in a non-standard size, but you can buy new replacements from the manufacturer.
Backlash is also understandable as they are changing the status quo.
Disclosure: We rented a Snoo and it was made a huge difference between our first (no Snoo) and second child.
https://www.happiestbaby.com/blogs/snoo/premium-app-features....
It is pretty hard to empathize with the people who are complaining but buying the device anyways. Nobody is holding a gun to their head and making them purchase one.
- Car Ride Mode - adds extra bounces
- Level Lock - don't change rhythm
- Sleepytime Sounds - play sounds before and after sleep
and so on.
The only ones I can see? Tracking, Sleep Logs (but I'd also argue that given that this is a smart device, I'd say that they could be expected baselines).
But as for the other, without being argumentative, I am sincerely struggling why it seems reasonable to you that "extra bounces", etc. are a Premium "subscription" feature.
Also the snoo does not require the app at all.
I've never used the snoo or any other self-rocking bassinet (luckily my daughter is a decently good sleeper on her own), but this product [0] certainly looks like it's pretty similar for a fraction of the price, and it's even from a known brand.
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Graco%C2%AE-SmartSenseTM-Soothing-Bab...
Does it just come down to a different controller/set of algorithms for governing the rocking/white noise capabilities? The product itself doesn't seem to cost $1700 dollars to produce - it seems to be a bassinet on rollers with a motor attached that can play sound.
https://www.instructables.com/Arduino-Cradle-Rocker/
https://www.instructables.com/INTELLIGENT-BABY-ROCKER/
A simple rocker or swing isn't as effective as a snoo, however.
I realize this may come off as a bit insensitive but isn't this taking away a chance to bond with your child? Children not being physically held enough at young age has lifelong implications
There are high-tech child-rearing trends that I suspect might be doing harm, but a rocking bassinet probably isn't one.
Having a Snoo doesn’t mean you never hold your child. Newborns provide many such opportunities. You don’t need to take them all. See the comment above about a newborn that needed this for 6 hours a night for months.
> Children not being physically held enough at young age has lifelong implications
Citation needed? This is the sort of thing that people use to argue against sleep training, too, but I don’t believe much evidence has been found for that.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4088358/
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0504767102
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7502223/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9599775/
https://doi.org/10.4324/9780203758045
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8250458/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33924970/
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-662-67860-2_...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14984130/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/infant-touch/