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dredmorbius · a year ago
NB: The infographic and articles are based on a 1993 publication.

More recent research, from about 2017, suggests that there's about as much water in Earth's mantle as in all the oceans, so we either need another drop roughly the volume of the first, or the second drop should be greatly expanded.

See: "There’s as much water in Earth’s mantle as in all the oceans" (2017) <https://www.newscientist.com/article/2133963-theres-as-much-...>

The USGS is citing a 1993 publication, Igor Shiklomanov's chapter "World fresh water resources" in Peter H. Gleick (editor), Water in Crisis: A Guide to the World's Fresh Water Resources (Oxford University Press, New York) (see the detail links from the submitted article).

That said, water remains a precious resource, and fresh surface water all the more so.

Edit: /double the size/s/size/volume/ above, for clarity.

utopcell · a year ago
> More recent research, from about 2017, suggests that there's about as much water in Earth's mantle as in all the oceans, so we either need another drop roughly the size of the first, or the second drop should be greatly expanded.

Specifically: given that the volume of a sphere is 4/3πR^3, doubling the volume is equivalent to increasing the radius by ~26%.

dredmorbius · a year ago
Good call, I've swapped "size" for "volume" to be clearer.
rdsubhas · a year ago
> The water discovered in the mantle is not in a form familiar to us – it is not liquid, ice, or vapor. Instead, it is trapped inside the molecular structure of the minerals in the mantle rock.

IMHO this is not a productive comparison. Hydrogen and oxygen ions inside minerals in rock is far too much of a stretch of imagination to call as water.

https://www.earth.com/news/ringwoodite-mineral-confirms-vast...

umvi · a year ago
I don't think it's "hydrogen and oxygen ions"; that doesn't really meet the definition of water. I'd assume it's more like ebsom salts, where H2O is a part of the crystalline structure of the chemical compound. If you heat up epsom salts enough then the bonds are broken and steam is released.
WarOnPrivacy · a year ago
> Hydrogen and oxygen ions inside minerals in rock is far too much of a stretch of imagination to call as water.

Agreed and to follow that thread to the end: We can't impact that water in a meaningful way.

We can't pollute it in dozens of ecosystem-altering ways.

We can't alter it's ability to host systems that sustain life.

We can't bulk-melt the frozen part & in turn alter the salinity + elevation of a liquid part.

We can't pump dry the parts that we desperately need to remain where they are.

yourapostasy · a year ago
When I see these infographics I think of non-technical audiences like policy makers and politicians consuming the same information, and I avoid making these fine distinctions. In this case, I would not mention the water in the mantle at all.

In a separate, private graphic, I’d show the available water next to the number of 1 GW reactors, the pile of annual uranium mining output to feed those reactors, and annual calendars it would take to assemble all that to extract the water and dispose of the waste in a way that won’t harm our ecosystem further to express, “if you want this water in a form you colloquially understand, the species possibly can’t afford it”. In case some wise ass decides to bring up that mantle water. But that additional detail would even help technically inclined audiences reading the infographic.

hn_throwaway_99 · a year ago
Does any of that water, though, ever make it onto the Earth's surface? I'm guessing not, or only miniscule amounts over geologic time through volcanism.

For all intents and purposes, I think only counting "surface" water is more useful and intuitive. It's essentially any water that can participate in the hydrologic cycle on Earth, and that water locked beneath the crust doesn't really "matter" for what I think the intended purpose of this graphic is.

dredmorbius · a year ago
The fundamental problem with complex phenomena is in defining the domain(s) of interest.

If we want to talk about the total amount of H2O around, on, or in the Earth then inclusion makes sense.

If we want to talk about water interacting with the surface environment (atmospheric, sea, ice cap, fresh, and subsurface aquifers and tectonic water), then splitting those into distinct categories probably also makes sense. In which case we can also show the subsurface water.

How much mantle water does make it to the surface over time is a good question. I've no idea though I'd suspect that some does through geothermal and tectonic activity. The more interesting question might be how we'd determine this (all but certainly through isotopic composition), and if a net flux could be determined.

Over geological time, additional reservoirs of water are significant simply because surface water boils off into space over time, with estimates I've seen of up to 25% of Earth's original allotment having done so over 4.5 billion years or so. As the Sun eventually grows warmer, this rate will increase. At the same time, tectonic activity will slow.

Note that there's a fair bit of water transport through the lower crust / upper mantle as oceanic plates subduct under continental plates, with the water absorbed into the oceanic plates playing a major role in volcanism at those plate boundaries, e.g., along the "Rim of Fire" surrounding the Pacific basin.

berkes · a year ago
The article has a strong focus on "available to humans" and "that humans depend on". Many of the water beneath the crust is exactly that, pumping it up is an important source of drinking water. (In my country, the Netherlands, it's the primary, almost only, source of drinking water)
card_zero · a year ago
We don't have access to any part of the planet below a depth of 2.5 miles, so the image should compare the volume of accessible water to the volume of accessible Earth, except then it would fail in its dishonest mission to make people say "gosh that sphere looks relatively small compared to the other sphere, I must restrict myself to ten-second showers."

Even if it was accessible water to accessible non-water I don't really see how the metric is relevant in any decision making. Is it warning against a half-baked plan to mix water with every available cubic meter of soil or rock? Because there wouldn't be enough water to do that crazy thing? Thanks, I'll bear that in mind.

kijin · a year ago
> or the second drop should be greatly expanded.

The second drop is called "liquid fresh water".

I'm not sure if I would want to categorize the water in the mantle as either "liquid" or "fresh". Most of that stuff is way above the critical point, not to mention saturated with rocky salts.

xattt · a year ago
> second drop should be greatly expanded

Radius of said sphere would only increase by ∛2. ;)

vixen99 · a year ago
Seems that Jules Verne (1867) in 'Journey to the Center of the Earth' was onto something when he invented his subterranean ocean.
sfink · a year ago
I long assumed that the Earth is a "water planet" because water is mostly what you see from a distance. It wasn't until I did the math that I realized that is really about wet rocks in space vs dry rocks in space.

Earth isn't made of water, it's just a damp rock. Or a bowling ball that you squirted a dozen times with a spray bottle.

RIMR · a year ago
The ballpark math is easy to do in your head too. The diameter of Earth is 8,000 miles, and the deepest point in the ocean, the Mariana Trench, is only 7 miles deep. It's immediately apparent that the oceans are tiny by comparison to the rest of the mass that is Earth.
tejohnso · a year ago
Neil DeGrasse Tyson says the earth scaled down to the size of a billiard ball would be smoother than any billiard ball ever made.
aspectmin · a year ago
An interesting exercise is to do this exact same calculation with the atmosphere.
Intralexical · a year ago
"Squirt with a spray bottle" is a nice euphemism for throwing asteroids at.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_water_on_Earth#Aster...

stavros · a year ago
They mean in terms of the ratio of water to rock.
jvanderbot · a year ago
There are moons out there that are more like giant snowballs - so much water that it dwarfs even our reserves.
DaoVeles · a year ago
There was an old sci-fi trope that the reason aliens attack earth is to get at our water.

The problem with that was, 1. there are better sources of water (the oort cloud) and 2. they aren't stuck in an gravity well.

ars · a year ago
Earth isn't even really a "rock", it's mostly a ball of iron.

It's a ball of iron covered with rocks (i.e. metal oxides) cover with water (i.e. hydrogen oxide).

zamadatix · a year ago
I don't buy it. Even allowing counting iron as separate from what rocks can be composed of (and using mass instead of volume) you still have 30.1%+15.1%=45.2% of the Earth as oxygen and silicon (which are most certainly part of what makes a rock) at which point you've already disproved the claim Earth is more a ball of iron than a ball of rock.

A ball of iron covered with a ball of rocks is a more fair statement though, and I'd agree with that. It's just that center ball isn't most of what makes up the Earth (by any measure).

oorza · a year ago
Closer to a bowling ball that picked up a drop of beer from your hands.
nwiswell · a year ago
This didn't sound right, so I did the math.

The volume of all water is 1,386,000,000 km^3, which is then 1.386e+21 liters, or right about the same number of kilograms.

The mass of Earth is about 5.972e+24 kg. So the percent fraction by mass is 0.0232%.

A "drop" is typically estimated at 1/20th of one mL, which is then 0.05 grams. We can estimate the mass of a small-ish bowling ball at 5kg, or 5000 grams. 0.05 / 5000 * 100 = 0.001%.

So it's an order of magnitude shy, but that's still closer than I expected! It's about 1 ml of beer on a bowling ball - a small splash. Or maybe a very large drop.

hoseja · a year ago
It is quite incredible that there is just enough water for a continuous ocean and also dry land, not either just a couple ponds or a waterworld.
Kaibeezy · a year ago
Oceanus's ocean tosses with slow, tall waves, beneath a pale blue sky. The colonists live in tall cities of steel and concrete with buildings sealed against the planet's harsh environment, on platforms floating on the planet-wide ocean. They spend their time pursuing art, leisure, and spiritual fulfilment, while automatic machines take care of their material needs.
rmbyrro · a year ago
> I long assumed

Understandably, since, in this case, surface area is more intuitively captured by our brains than volume.

Also because we are very small. The amount of water, from our perspective, makes it look like a water planet.

veunes · a year ago
It's true that while water covers about 71% of Earth's surface, it's just a thin layer compared to the planet's overall volume.
zuminator · a year ago
Even so, it's still a pretty substantial amount. Larger than Ceres, for example.
kristianpaul · a year ago
rock that moves and is hot inside so a magnetic fields generates from its motion and protect us from the sun particles
keepamovin · a year ago
Mars is the same, right? Just the water is locked 20 - 200km beneath the surface from recent discoveries.
veunes · a year ago
This water is locked away in the form of ice
netsharc · a year ago
> Earth isn't made of water, it's just a damp rock. Or a bowling ball that you squirted a dozen times with a spray bottle.

Yeah, the image with the oceans being dry is wow-inducing... On further thought, of course it'd be very close a sphere, because gravity forces it to be. A sphere where e.g. a slice of it is water (imagine a clementine with one of its segments being water) would be very wobbly if even possible at all..

hughesjj · a year ago
Yup, the mere fact that we can have oceans and continents on a planet means we can only have so much water, lest we become a water world or something more like mars.

I do wonder if the OP includes water locked away in rocks though, to my understanding the majority of the water is in the mantle and not even the oceans, but my source is my butt for that one

Dead Comment

spencerchubb · a year ago
> damp rock

lol it's funny when you put it that way

alluro2 · a year ago
I don't really follow a lot of comments questioning the choice of shape, methodology, exclusion of water in the mantle etc.

I believe the purpose of the image is to evoke sense of preciousness and responsibility towards the water we have - maybe how much for granted we take our "blue planet".

To me, this is an amazingly effective and visually poignant way of doing just that.

umvi · a year ago
> This sphere includes all of the water in the oceans, ice caps, lakes, rivers, groundwater, atmospheric water, and even the water in you, your dog, and your tomato plant.

Does it include water in the mantle? (https://www.bnl.gov/newsroom/news.php?a=111648)

or other non-liquid water for that matter like hydrates (ebsom salts, etc)

dredmorbius · a year ago
Given that the quantity of water in the mantle is thought to be equivalent to that in all the oceans (large drop), I'd presume not.

The mantle-water research is fairly new, with this report from 2017:

"There’s as much water in Earth’s mantle as in all the oceans"

<https://www.newscientist.com/article/2133963-theres-as-much-...>

The USGS detail pages are based on a 1993 publication, Igor Shiklomanov's chapter "World fresh water resources" in Peter H. Gleick (editor), Water in Crisis: A Guide to the World's Fresh Water Resources (Oxford University Press, New York).

<https://www.usgs.gov/special-topics/water-science-school/sci...> and <https://www.usgs.gov/special-topics/water-science-school/sci...>

marcosdumay · a year ago
Yep, it's quite misleading since the region where they looked for water at all is an incredibly thin layer on the outside of the planet, but they show it all as if it applied to all of the volume.
DiggyJohnson · a year ago
There’s nothing wrong with their representation. You’re describing a different comparison.
moralestapia · a year ago
No, it doesn't. It includes all of the water in the oceans, ice caps, lakes, rivers, groundwater, atmospheric water, and even the water in you, your dog, and your tomato plant.
FredPret · a year ago
"Groundwater" is a little ambiguous - H2O in the mantle is also "ground water", no?
Sparkyte · a year ago
Same question I've got, but I imagine USGS is only considering reachable surface, atmospheric water.
stcredzero · a year ago
The sphere for all liquid water seems to be close in size to the asteroid Ceres.

https://lightsinthedark.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ceres...

dylan604 · a year ago
But would this sphere of water have enough mass to hold itself together as a sphere in space? Put aside it freezing into a ball of ice as a thought exercise.
Pat_Murph · a year ago
The wording of the legend description says all the war in, on and above the earth so we have to assume that is does take it into account.
dredmorbius · a year ago
Sources say otherwise, see my immediate prior comment.
YVoyiatzis · a year ago
Water dissolving and removing There is water at the bottom of the ocean

Dead Comment

kevinkeller · a year ago
Largest ocean in our solar system isn't even on Earth, apparently:

> ... Ganymede’s ocean is even bigger than Europa’s—and might be the largest in the entire solar system. “The Ganymede ocean is believed to contain more water than the Europan one,” he says. “Six times more water in Ganymede’s ocean than in Earth's ocean, and three times more than Europa.”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/overlooked-ocean-...

teekert · a year ago
https://www.businessinsider.nl/earth-water-ice-volume-versus...

Ganymede vs. Earth is indeed very surprising!

Lautzi · a year ago
The largest ocean in the solar system actually is on Jupiter [1]. The gas planet has an absolute massive amount of liquid hydrogen on its "surface". But yeah, liquid hydrogen isn't water, so it might be the biggest ocean, but not the biggest ocean made out of water in our solar system :).

[1]: https://science.nasa.gov/jupiter/jupiter-facts/ (Under "Structure")

JumpCrisscross · a year ago
> Ganymede’s ocean is even bigger than Europa’s

Europa Clipper launches in October [1]. I've seen talk of crashing it into Ganymede to give JUICE novel data [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_Clipper

[2] https://www.space.com/europa-clipper-might-crash-into-ganyme...

Sparkyte · a year ago
We could probably terraform Mars if we crashed Europa into Mars.
ianburrell · a year ago
It would make Mars warmer. It would melt all the ice and CO2. It would give Mars an ocean. Of liquid rock. This is assuming that it doesn't destroy Mars completely. There might be enough fragments to make Solar System dangerous place and destroy life on Earth.

Europa is the size of our Moon. Colliding it with Mars would be similar to the collision that formed our Moon.

wildzzz · a year ago
And then we completely skew Mars's orbit until it crashes into the sun or is flung out of the solar system.
keepamovin · a year ago
And then wait 160 million years for the planet to settle. I like your long term thinking.
staplers · a year ago
Might have some "slight" orbital and shrapnel repercussions..
hoseja · a year ago
If we could crash Europa into Mars we'd have capability to terraform Mars in a more reasonable manner.
divbzero · a year ago
Ganymede having an ocean surprised me given that its surface appears rocky in photos. Apparently, it’s an internal ocean hidden under the surface.
openrisk · a year ago
If you could squeeze the Earth's atmosphere into a ball of similar density it would be more or less of size of the middle sphere (all the oceans only weigh 270 times as much as the atmosphere [1]).

So there you have it: the key ingredients all life depends on are but a tiny boundary layer of water and air, stretched thinly between solid rock and the hostile emptiness of outer space.

The grand challenge of our sustainability is, indeed, how much can we (humans) perturb this extraordinary complex boundary layer without inducing runaway dynamics that we (or rather, future generations of us) will not particularly like.

[1] https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/how-much-does-earths-at...

myself248 · a year ago
Turn Randall Munroe loose on this idea and be prepared for unspeakable devastation as a tsunami of Lovecraftian proportions wreaks havoc on the planet...
jameshart · a year ago
Literally just posted today: the video version of his What If? analysis of what would happen if you took that ball of water and dropped it on Mars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkUNHhVbQ1Q
maushu · a year ago
He already did it with a 1km diameter ball (https://what-if.xkcd.com/12/) and the destruction was terrifying. Please keep him away from these other bigger water balls.
dylan604 · a year ago
It was just a friendly game of water balloons. We had no intent of destroying your planet.

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rmah · a year ago
Just a few quick calculations to make it more relatable...

They say the smallest sphere of freshwater lakes and rivers amounts to 93,113 cu km. There are 1 bil cu m per cu km. With a global population of 8.2 bil people, that comes to 11,355 cu m per person. That's a 22.5 meter wide/deep/tall cube (or about 7 or 8 stories tall building).

If we use the sphere that includes groundwater, 10,633,450 cu km. Then we end up with 1,296,762 cu m or a 109m wide cube per person.

madcaptenor · a year ago
I'm having trouble picturing a 22.5 meter cube. So consider a 200 sq m house; with ceilings of 2.5 m that's 500 cu m. So "your" water fills 22 houses.
akira2501 · a year ago
Also.. the largest sphere has a radius of about 92 miles. It reaches to the edge of the atmosphere, and about 1/3 of the way to low earth orbit.
laweijfmvo · a year ago
> The largest sphere represents all of Earth's water. Its diameter is about 860 miles

Should be a radius of 430 miles, no?

The image is very non-intuitive, IMO, because it's making the water appear so small compared to the entire planet (which, duh, obviously the water is only part of earth), but also drawing the planet that small really hides how friggin big the earth is!

mmooss · a year ago
I thought the border with space is generally (and arbitrarily) said to be the Kármán Line, at 100 km / 62.1 mi. I'm not nitpicking, just curious about other definitions.

Also, I thought LEO typically begins around 180 km / 112 mi.

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morepork · a year ago
It's interesting to consider that there's about 26,000,000 km^3 of ice in the Antarctic ice sheet, which would give you a much larger ~150 m^3 cube of ice per person. That's not including the Greenland ice sheet or any sea ice.