Readit News logoReadit News
Posted by u/burtonator 2 years ago
Ask HN: Why don't VCs just "suck it up" and pay founders a competitive salary?
Most startup founders and early employees make about 1/2 of what they can working for MAANG companies.

IMO this leads to the following problems:

1. Most startups that COULD exist are never actually started because the founders want to be making higher salaries working at Google/Microsoft/Meta/etc.

2. The only founders that actually move forward are ones that have a significant amount of cash in the back from previous startups.

3. The founders and investors aren't properly aligned. The founders want to exit but the investors want them to go long so that they get their unicorn exit.

Now #3 is mitigated in some situations by having the founders do 'partial founder buyout' where they sell some of their equity into the next round for a few million dollars each.

But this is an admission that there's a problem.

It just seems like everyone would be better off if VCs would just get over it and put in more cash and allow their portfolio companies to pay more competitive salaries.

I know this is happening in the AI space right now with companies paying more to pick up top talent - so they don't go to work for MAANG.

This is inherently bad for startup employees and they are directly subsidizing profits for the VCs.

The VCs get to diversify but the startup employees don't.

DoreenMichele · 2 years ago
Startups are unproven ideas.

MAANG companies are proven businesses.

Lots of people would say "Yes! I shall pretend to work on establishing a viable business if you throw scads of money at me!" And not ever really develop a viable business.

Founders get rich by having equity. Some of them get stinking rich.

It's basically a form of betting that incentivizes actually succeeding at finding a viable business model. That's the only way that makes sense. Otherwise you are paying people to pretend to work.

The "pretending to work" issue gets talked about a fair amount. People attend conferences because it feels like work. People rent offices and set up business bank accounts because it feels like work. Etc.

Real work involves solving a real problem and getting people to pay you for it.

That doesn't automatically happen because people call themselves "founders" and invent a business name etc.

smfjaw · 2 years ago
I grew up lower middle class, which gave me a good hunger to go to college, get a degree and make some money. VCs are trying to incentivise that same mindset except by making with riches equity instead of opportunity
zooq_ai · 2 years ago
Exactly. Also why startups within an organization fail at a higher rate, because there still treat it as a 9-5 job with no hunger or fear of failure.
extr · 2 years ago
What exactly is the argument here? That we can't pay founders too much, or else grifters/lazy people would take over to line their pockets with VC dollars? That's basically a non-sequitur.

The issue at hand is that there is probably some correlation between a founder's opportunity cost and probability of success. Smart, driven people could be doing a lot of things with their time. Working for years on end for $200k/year for a small probability of a large exit is not practical for a lot of them. Working for $400K might be. OP's point is that as an investor, you might be better off having fewer, higher quality founders and paying them the higher opportunity costs. Would you rather fund 10 teams of monkeys or one team of ex-executives with proven experience building/scaling/etc?

Dead Comment

freefaler · 2 years ago
As a 2-times founder, one VC funded and one bootstrapped I think there is a fundamental difference of the world view of a founder and a cash-optimizing employee you're missing.

Startups are just businesses. Business owners value money, but they also value independence and freedom to do what they want to do. The "don't tell me what to do" gene is highly correlated with them. The only resource you can't buy is your time and investing it into your ideas brings a lot of meaning into the daily slog. Also if you have your own company, you decide the rules and people you surround yourself with. If you spend 1/3 of your life working, this is a non-trivial contributor of your quality of life.

This is the first reason. Founders really hate working for other people.

Regarding salaries, the more cash you burn, the less time you have to understand the market and create the product. Salaries are expenses and you need to be very stingy until you get to profitability.

This is the second reason.

And something I've seen in the "startup" crowd. From the VC marketing bullhshit they assume that the "only" way to create a company is "to create the next billion dollar company". It's the game of the VC's, grow and sell. Yes, 3% of Facebook can be worth more than 40% of 5 Million ARR company, but if you multiply it by the chance of creating the next Facebook you'll see that it's riskier and you loose too much control and the first reason you're doing your own thing.

In summary, if you're thinking about short term salaries it's best not to try to do a startup, better find a good paying job and invest in an index fund. This will be safer and on average yield better.

bruce511 · 2 years ago
I concur. If you are -asking- this question, then VC startup isn't for you.

If you are asking this question, then bootstrapping really isn't for you.

That's OK. There are these 3 very different employment models for a reason. They appeal to different people. Neither is better than the others.

While the original question is about immediate financial reward, that's only one part of the equation. Other parts include risk, control, secureness, impact, potential etc.

Ultimately the path for you depends on your personal value to each attribute. For the best possible returns, at lowest risk, go be an employee. For most control, good potential, mid-risk, bootstrap. For high risk, massive potential (but most likely implosion) go VC. All

alephnerd · 2 years ago
> From the VC marketing bullhshit they assume that the "only" way to create a company is "to create the next billion dollar company"

We don't (or at least we shouldn't).

The issue is as a VC you have LPs who are very demanding about returns. VC represents a minority of their total capital outlay, but they put money in VC in order to get outsized returns.

If I'm the Ontario Provincial Pension and I gave a VC US$200M, I expect to make way more money from the VC fund than I would have investing in the stock market, or bonds, or gold, or to a PE/IB/Hedge Fund.

VC is just another financial instrument that is a part of diversified portfolios.

If I had to use stereotypes, if PEs are alcoholic coke heads, VCs are kombucha swilling stoners and trippers.

salomonk_mur · 2 years ago
If you are the Ontario Provisional Pension, you expect to make roughly the same in every category you invest in, since every higher return option comes with higher risk.

It's the cornerstone of investing. You diversify to hedge risk, not to increase total yield.

majormajor · 2 years ago
To play devil's advocate - since we're talking about "pay yourself less than Google" not "pay yourself nothing" - what would happen if someone was throwing tons of money around and telling founders (and early employees, while we're at it, who also take less than Google et al) to pay themselves several more hundreds of thousands of dollars a year?

They'd attract a lot of people to fund, for sure.

You'd lose a bit of a filter around risk tolerance to try to weed out scammers, though. There are absolutely a bunch of people who would take that money with no intent or ability to deliver a solid company in the end.

So they'd probably want to be EXTREMELY selective; moreso than Google by far since there the financial loss is smaller both absolutely ("one bad hire's salary for 6-12mo" vs "a multi-million dollar seed investment") and likely as a percentage of revenue/bank account.

I think they'd either get ripped off and disappear in a few years or just be small and stay small and not make a huge difference overall.

It doesn't seem entirely different than the attempted Softbank "de-risk startups by picking a winner early and pouring in crazy $$" approach.

majormajor · 2 years ago
Riffing on this too, the other bit of it - from a founder and early employee POV - is that at a startup, money is quite literally time.

Oversimplification: pay yourself 2x and have a 6mo runway, or take x and have a 12mo runway. If you aren't expecting to give up quickly, and don't want to just try to fall back into a Google job after 6 months if it is struggling to find traction, you're gonna want the longer runway.

And time turns back into future money because if you're doing a startup you're also likely considering the potential upside. Most startups don't get there, but if you just wanted to play the aggregate numbers, that would probably already stop you[0]. So you want to get more customers, you want to raise that next round, etc, and all those things are helped by runway. Most startups fail - but the ones that spend faster fail faster.

[0] why work for $GOOG for 12 months at a startup then have to look for a new job when it fails instead of just working for $GOOG at Google with job security?

waterhouse · 2 years ago
In theory, you could pay yourself 2x for 6 months, then 0x for 6 months if the startup lacks money but seems worth persisting at. I think it's not especially rare for founders to work for temporarily zero pay early on. Seems like the main difference between that and "1x for 12 months" is providing an incentive to yourself for the last 6 months, and signaling that to others.
foobarian · 2 years ago
There could be some ways around that. They could pay these would be founders in IOUs which can be cashed in for a generous amount of money once some condition is met, such as the company becoming successful or going public. :^)
dclowd9901 · 2 years ago
I’m not sure this argument tracks as well as the top one.

The pay that founders and early players get is nothing to scoff at — many folks would be quite very happy for that pay and would happily fake their way to it. What’s preventing _that_ from happening?

nemothekid · 2 years ago
Founders usually decide their salary, not VCs - if you are raising a seed and decide to use your runway to pay yourself a competitive salary then that's on you. How you decide to spend your seed money is up to you (barring fraud). Same for early employees, they negotiate with the founder, not VCs. Founders are the type of people who even if they were paid more, would plow that money back into the business - it doesn't make sense to take the tax hit.

I may be mistaken, but I've never heard of a VC dictating salaries.

tptacek · 2 years ago
Technically, after your first priced round, you'll have a board; you probably control it, but perhaps not after your second round. The board will approve a headcount plan, with implied costs.

Realistically the management team (the operators, not the investors) do control most of this.

The subtext of the question though isn't why operators don't increase comp; it's why investors don't kick in enough to let startups compete with comp packages from FAANGs.

(I think the answer is: it's because most startups fail.)

nemothekid · 2 years ago
I think the comparison to FAANG is unfair. Most operators, after a priced round, AFAIK, are paid fairly, sans FAANG. The idea that any startup should have similar comps to companies that have been growing 50%+ year/year for decades with money shooting out of every orifice isn't realistic. Most startups don't compete with comp packages from FAANG for the same reason that Target doesn't offer competing packages - they aren't making that much money. An exception, OpenAI, which is completely flush with money.

More succinctly, FAANG salaries aren't market rate salaries - they are above market. I find operators are paid in comparison to similar sized companies, especially companies that appear "mature" after their 2nd or 3rd priced round. It's the same reason the quants at Chase don't make as much as the quants at RenTech, doesn't mean the Chase quants are being paid under market.

alephnerd · 2 years ago
> I may be mistaken, but I've never heard of a VC dictating salaries.

We don't exactly (Boards are a thing) but we do give recommendations of decent salary ranges, but then again, serious founders are not going to ask to get paid a Director at Google's salary when they're the CEO of a 5-6 person startup.

ilrwbwrkhv · 2 years ago
Get paid 995_850 for not doing much, whereas startups are much harder and are a lot more work.

Somewhere the inventives are misaligned for sure.

banish-m4 · 2 years ago
Founders who are too comfortable (past exits or high TC) tend not to be hungry hustlers willing to strive to get over the finish line (mandatory sports metaphor). The people who are hungrier tend to be: recent immigrants (sorry Americans), people who are broke, people who exited another career like military esp. spec ops, sports, or racing.

Founders should help themselves by reducing their personal expenses to as close to zero as possible.

There's metric shittons of cash but there aren't a lot of investible teams onto something awesome with excellent timing. VCs and angels aren't just going to write larger convertible notes because you personally want more money. You must demonstrate business value that can be accelerated with varying amounts of cash and deliver when you get it, without giving away too much equity.

tippytippytango · 2 years ago
It’s a test to see if the founder values their equity more or less than the salary gap. If not even the founder values equity more than the gap, then they should close down and go get jobs.
extr · 2 years ago
This sounds good but the math makes no sense. The salary gap we're talking about here is minuscule compared to non-trivial amounts of equity in a successful company. $400K vs $200K per year for 5 years is $1M total. If the company is successful at VC scale, $1M will be dwarfed by the value of the equity. And how much better of a founder can you buy for $400k vs $200k? I can think of a ton of people in the Bay Area for whom $200K is a non-starter but $400k is "tell me more".
majormajor · 2 years ago
You aren't paying yourself for 5 years out of your first raise if you succeed.

But if your first raise is 2M and you want to hire a few people with it and make it last a year, an extra 200k might be a big dent in your runway. Or get your investor to give you 10% more.

tippytippytango · 2 years ago
Yes, the founder should be valuing their equity far more than the salary gap. If they don’t, then something is gravely wrong with the business as they are essentially valuing it near zero.
extr · 2 years ago
IMO you are entirely correct OP, and it's to everyone's detriment. A huge talent pool locked out of creating new forms of value because investors are too cheap to bump salary from what is arbitrarily considered "pretty good but fair" to "competitive with top rates". Seriously, I love some of the comments here saying $300K/yr is obscene but implying $150-200K would be fine. This difference is a rounding error in the grand scheme of the money involved.
dannykwells · 2 years ago
Founders can make a "competitive" salary, if they have existing experience for the actual job of being a founder (i.e., previous executive leadership experience).

For many, being a founder is not just "taking a risk on an unproven idea" it's also a career change from being a solo IC or technical leader to being an executive, with very, very different requirements for success, so the risk here is compounded.