Hi all, engineer who worked on forms @ Retool here. Excited to get HN’s feedback on a new product I’ve been working on: Retool Forms. There are a ton of form builders out there (e.g. Typeform, Google Forms, Airtable Forms, etc.) and honestly we weren’t really looking to build another one. But as a developer, I wanted my data in my database, not in another SaaS app (which probably has a shoddy API, like every example I listed above). Surprisingly, the only way to build a form on top of my database was by a) building my own backend (probably via node), and b) building my own frontend (probably via React, and then maybe via formik). There was no “one click” form-on-top-of-my-database tool available.
So we decided to build a form builder. It allows you to:
1. Send data directly to your database (Postgres in our case), your data warehouse, or wherever else you want it
2. Write JS almost anywhere on the front-end, including libraries like moment and lodash, for custom validations, conditional logic, and data parsing
3. Run any arbitrary code in form submission (or validation), via our Workflows product
4. Store it in our database (where we give you a connection string), or your own database
5. Self-host it in your own VPC
And it’s free with no arbitrary limits on the number of users, forms or submissions.
I’m hoping to ship a bunch more features like integration to any REST API, more styling options, etc. If you have any feedback please let me know!
Let me tell you something about this fancy HTML tag you are talking about.
It has an "action" attribute that points to a server you need to own and run a code you need to code in order to validate the input and store it in the database. If you are comfortable doing this, which no doubt you are, then you are not the target audience of this tool.
So, you didn’t feel comfortable relying on “another SaaS” app, and then go on to suggest Retool Workflows, which is itself part of another paid SaaS app? All those “shoddy” alternatives also have free tiers.
Not sure that is fair? The difference seems to be the data is squarely in your own DB. You can use their SaaS for validation. You might pay for something (surprise?).
Why is it free?
And for how long will it be free for?
I do not want to start to use another Form builder to find out months later I'm locked with a $50/m charge.
Edit: the right page seems to be https://docs.retool.com/self-hosted but it’s about Retool in general; I doubt you need 8 vCPUs and 16GB of RAM to host forms [1].
These types of projects always remind me of MS Access. Access is forms on a database, and really easy to use. It obviously has its drawbacks but nothing has come close to it. I've never understood why MS didn't capitalise on it by extending and improving it.
Because the single-system paradigm doesn't work any more. However, modern replacements do exist, Airtable is one of the first; it's basically the notion of a "spreadsheet with more structure", and then building forms and such on top of that. I've recently been playing with Grist and like it, although it is rough around the edges.
I never saw an Access database that didn't become a regretful mess after a couple of years - the person that made it left, no-one knew how to update it. Fancy validation built into the form that just got in the way when requirements changed.
Thus I came to the conclusion that any Access database is probably better off being a spreadsheet, even with all the chaos that not having forms as a front end and not having relational structure entails. At least people can understand other peoples spreadsheets (up to a point)
Most Access-based apps turn to shit because they're made by non-developers. The tool itself isn't to blame. I've seen Access used to great success when coupled with scripting to dump schema and code to text files for version control and code review.
I'm unfortunately forced to use access at work. I never wanted to learn what is, unless MS do something, a dead technology, I fully agree that most access databases are a shit show but only because nondevelopers (as mentioned but others). However, kept simple, on point and used within it's limitations, it's a very flexible system.
As a side note I found retool to be the most prohibitively expensive out of 6-7 solutions I was researching for “low code admin app builder” ecosystem.
Hm, sorry you found us to be expensive. Two notes:
* Forms (ie the product here) is free.
* We’ve always aimed to build a sustainable business where we charge reasonable prices and can guarantee we’ll stay in business ourselves. It’s true there are other products that are cheaper, but every single one of those companies is unprofitable and many will probably be dead in a few years. See, for example, Airplane, Interval, or Dynaboard. Dynaboard just got acquired today (their founder is apparently “thrilled” about it: https://dynaboard.com/blog/figma-acquires-dynaboard) and they’re shutting down on April 30th. If you’re a paying customer you’ll need to rebuild all your apps by then. Ouch! (I’d rather pay more and not have worry about core pieces of my business getting shut down with three months’ notice.)
As a counterpoint--from another potential user who looked at Retool first but landed on a competitor's product because Retool was too expensive--another way for me to avoid that outcome is to choose a tool that's open source and self-hosted. That's precisely what we did. If/when the company goes out of business, we can keep using it; this already happened to us with RethinkDB and we continue to run that in its community-maintained form. I'll likely want to find a new platform for new development but I won't have to rewrite my existing apps by a deadline.
You're right that it's a big concern, but it's a pretty tough sell to solve this problem by just charging so much that it's clear you could not possibly go out of business. I had to go pretty far down the list of your top competitors to find a good one that was open source, but I did find it.
All that said, Retool's pricing at that time was MUCH worse than it is today. This is what Retool was offering us at the time: https://web.archive.org/web/20230315060042/https://retool.co... -- no distinction between developers and end users! No access controls until the $50/user/month level! That was totally out of the question. The current pricing looks a bit more reasonable, but it's too late; we already committed to the competitor offering an open source solution.
As someone who also tried and really liked Retool but also found it too expensive I can add my reasoning.
I help companies with digital transformation, what it usually entails is deploying solutions to small teams and then growing them as we get buy in from the business. The initial users are high frequency users of the tools, and later users might be infrequent users.
The problem I found with Retool was that as I scaled to the infrequent users the cost per user remained static, so I would be punished for my tool becoming more popular.
Dynaboard shutting down does not relate to pricing for end-users.
From a Low Code product perspective, we were still able to build a beautiful and functional product. Our product unit/engineer ratio is much higher than our competition (see, for example, Retool), which allows us to provide the best value for our users. Regarding the transition, I don't see any indication from the note you posted that users will have to rebuild all their apps. Rather, the founder is saying he will provide more information and possible steps. Who knows – maybe it would be integrated into Figma? And Figma would gain great runtime and IDE capacities?
Just wanted to echo I love your product but the pricing is too prohibitive. My use-case is wanting to offer a dashboard to my own clients. But the business pricing was $50/mo per user and also gave each user editor privileges.
I want to create customer accounts, apply settings (e.g. I delimit the data their account can access, basically adding WHERE clauses on a per-account basis), and they can access white-label read-only dashboards with their own user/pass.
Retool seemed 100% insistent on being an internal-only tool with a high cost per user.
Curious - what was your use case for low code tool? Just build a single admin tool for a few users or something more elaborate.
FWIW I run growth for a low code platform company and we are one of the retool alternatives. One of the things I am trying to get right is getting the value proposition right for different scenarios like say building a customer portal (unlimited external users) to admin tools (few internal users). So far we have been able to do good on this front by helping customers with usage based pricing or even developer based pricing. But yet curious to hear your use case and see if there is something I am missing.
It’s a progression. It starts out as an admin dashboard for a team of 5, then it grows to an internal platform for 15 devs plus “ops” people etc. Thus there’s micro segments inside this market based on stage
I enjoy the technical side, but I'm struggling to commercialise it so don't hesitate to give me your feedback here or on https://www.myowndb.com/contact.html which is of course powered by a myowndb public form :-)
heh, I'll throw my formial (https://github.com/nathanstitt/formial) project onto this thread. I probably need to update it a bit but it's been working well in production for 2+ years now.
Where were all these alternatives when I was looking for a WYSIWYG form builder?
I am a little confused by Retool. Every page on retool.com has a different look and feel, different font styles and colour schemes. It feels extremely disjointed and almost like hacked together by completely different people who then merged html pages into a single web app. Then Form to DB has even its own domain and is marketed as a complete standalone product here but I can't find a way to only sign up to it or find pricing for it. How is From to DB related to Retool?
Crazy prices. I'm always wondering for what kind of companies things like Retool are. Internally, when we want to whip up a crud app, we use Nextjs with T3 stack and you are up and running in two-three hours.
Retool has sure, but I'd expect the Form to DB homepage to be validating this product rather than the team behind it.
I said this in a sibling comment too, I may just be unfairly nitpicking here but these "trusted by" marketing blocks just rub me the wrong way when the product is brand new.
Here are the docs: https://docs.retool.com/apps/forms. Just added a link to them from the landing page. Agree we should also add a quick demo to the landing page
Readit News
So we decided to build a form builder. It allows you to:
1. Send data directly to your database (Postgres in our case), your data warehouse, or wherever else you want it
2. Write JS almost anywhere on the front-end, including libraries like moment and lodash, for custom validations, conditional logic, and data parsing
3. Run any arbitrary code in form submission (or validation), via our Workflows product
4. Store it in our database (where we give you a connection string), or your own database
5. Self-host it in your own VPC
And it’s free with no arbitrary limits on the number of users, forms or submissions.
I’m hoping to ship a bunch more features like integration to any REST API, more styling options, etc. If you have any feedback please let me know!
> and b) building my own frontend (probably via React, and then maybe via formik)
There's also a new technology called HTML. It comes with a <form> tag, <input> field tags, and even a <button> to submit!
Although new, they managed to get all browsers on board to support it.
You will not need to import 150kb of JavaScript, though, which is sad. And it's not shiny to speak about in the interview for your next job.
I guess the pros dont overweight these cons... Yes, "probably via React" is the way!
It has an "action" attribute that points to a server you need to own and run a code you need to code in order to validate the input and store it in the database. If you are comfortable doing this, which no doubt you are, then you are not the target audience of this tool.
I’m curious how to interpret the “trusted by” statement here
Does this count: https://airforms.com/
When did you start building it? Budibase does exactly this since 2020.
https://docs.retool.com/education/labs/self-hosted
Edit: the right page seems to be https://docs.retool.com/self-hosted but it’s about Retool in general; I doubt you need 8 vCPUs and 16GB of RAM to host forms [1].
[1]: https://docs.retool.com/self-hosted/quickstarts/docker#vm-co...
https://www.getgrist.com
Grist is open source, Python scriptable and each project is stored in a SQLite database.
Thus I came to the conclusion that any Access database is probably better off being a spreadsheet, even with all the chaos that not having forms as a front end and not having relational structure entails. At least people can understand other peoples spreadsheets (up to a point)
Recently I discovered https://directus.io/ which comes pretty close and it's open source.
* Forms (ie the product here) is free.
* We’ve always aimed to build a sustainable business where we charge reasonable prices and can guarantee we’ll stay in business ourselves. It’s true there are other products that are cheaper, but every single one of those companies is unprofitable and many will probably be dead in a few years. See, for example, Airplane, Interval, or Dynaboard. Dynaboard just got acquired today (their founder is apparently “thrilled” about it: https://dynaboard.com/blog/figma-acquires-dynaboard) and they’re shutting down on April 30th. If you’re a paying customer you’ll need to rebuild all your apps by then. Ouch! (I’d rather pay more and not have worry about core pieces of my business getting shut down with three months’ notice.)
You're right that it's a big concern, but it's a pretty tough sell to solve this problem by just charging so much that it's clear you could not possibly go out of business. I had to go pretty far down the list of your top competitors to find a good one that was open source, but I did find it.
All that said, Retool's pricing at that time was MUCH worse than it is today. This is what Retool was offering us at the time: https://web.archive.org/web/20230315060042/https://retool.co... -- no distinction between developers and end users! No access controls until the $50/user/month level! That was totally out of the question. The current pricing looks a bit more reasonable, but it's too late; we already committed to the competitor offering an open source solution.
I help companies with digital transformation, what it usually entails is deploying solutions to small teams and then growing them as we get buy in from the business. The initial users are high frequency users of the tools, and later users might be infrequent users.
The problem I found with Retool was that as I scaled to the infrequent users the cost per user remained static, so I would be punished for my tool becoming more popular.
From a Low Code product perspective, we were still able to build a beautiful and functional product. Our product unit/engineer ratio is much higher than our competition (see, for example, Retool), which allows us to provide the best value for our users. Regarding the transition, I don't see any indication from the note you posted that users will have to rebuild all their apps. Rather, the founder is saying he will provide more information and possible steps. Who knows – maybe it would be integrated into Figma? And Figma would gain great runtime and IDE capacities?
I want to create customer accounts, apply settings (e.g. I delimit the data their account can access, basically adding WHERE clauses on a per-account basis), and they can access white-label read-only dashboards with their own user/pass.
Retool seemed 100% insistent on being an internal-only tool with a high cost per user.
We were emailing back in 2021 about one of the many products you and your team have built for developers. Exciting conversation, for sure!
If anyone is interested in reading about my experience with ReTool's approach to developer tools, I have a link: https://marak.com/blog/2021-04-25-monetizing-open-source-is-...
FWIW I run growth for a low code platform company and we are one of the retool alternatives. One of the things I am trying to get right is getting the value proposition right for different scenarios like say building a customer portal (unlimited external users) to admin tools (few internal users). So far we have been able to do good on this front by helping customers with usage based pricing or even developer based pricing. But yet curious to hear your use case and see if there is something I am missing.
And
https://airforms.com/
I enjoy the technical side, but I'm struggling to commercialise it so don't hesitate to give me your feedback here or on https://www.myowndb.com/contact.html which is of course powered by a myowndb public form :-)
Where were all these alternatives when I was looking for a WYSIWYG form builder?
Retool is very widely adopted by major companies.
I may very well be nitpicking unfairly here, those marketing "trusted by" blocks on brand new products just always rub me the wrong way.
I said this in a sibling comment too, I may just be unfairly nitpicking here but these "trusted by" marketing blocks just rub me the wrong way when the product is brand new.
For building Retool Apps/Workflows, our pricing is here: https://retool.com/pricing