The idea of a washing machine, coffee maker, refrigerator, etc. including a network card strikes me as a solution in search of a problem. Unless you are the company marketing these devices and the problem is "how can start getting in on the user data collection game".
If the machine had an open API that I could control and utilize entirely locally, I can see (minor) advantages to most of these. Really anything that is a somewhat highish power load and only needs to run very intermittently, having a way to control it with home automation (which requires some kind of wireless connection), could be of some use.
THe problem is that they are including this network connectivity in a completely closed down way where you, the user, do not actually have any control over what is sent to or from the device. that kind of connection I agree is worse than useless: actively malicious and bad, and I would pay extra to not have it.
I don't particularly want any appliances that connect to the internet, but it would be quite fun to have a washing machine API that reported sensor data like water temperature, weight of load, drum rotation speed during the spin cycle, door lock/unlock status etc.
Exactly, and they also provide the network stuff over and above an already complex local lcd/button/touchscreen UI.
They should just provide a local API, conforming to a standard, and then 3rd party remote control software could drive it. The physical UI on the machine itself is then just and on/off start/stop button.
My plan to solve this is buy an all in one like the new ge prestige unit when my washer or dryer breaks. That runs on a regular outlet so there are many, many cheap esphome based outlets that monitor power draw that will work. At that point its a trivial rule in home assisant to notify me when the thibg is done.
Why paying extra? You just don't connect them to your local wifi, that's what I did with my Bosch devices. It's not like they can connect by themselves (can they?)
I can't imagine there's much value in LG knowing how often I wash my clothes.
On the other hand, it's nice to get a notification when the cycle is done if I'm on the other side of the house. Refrigerator sending a notification to my phone if the door isn't closed could come in handy some day too.
Re: the refrigerator door.
I’ve always wondered if just engineering a door that shuts itself is a better option here… like a servo that swings the door around enough to shut… what’s the overhead for either unnecessary piece of technology…
I've had an idea for the longest time to hook up a smart outlet to my washer and just monitor when it starts using a bunch of electricity and when it stops doing that. That way I could DIY myself washer notifications, since I never hear when the machine goes off and its time estimates are near useless.
It's frequently spoken about all kinds of devices that they are mining data.
I'm actually really curious, as someone far away, what does this actually look like?
Are PMs at these companies putting data collection stuff into their roadmaps "just in case," or is this a directive that comes from the higher ups with a specific business plan for how they are going to monetize the data? How does someone actually buy washing machine data? Are they selling the data? If so, where, how, to whom? Do I approach LG or does LG approach me? Are the numbers of how much money these companies are making on data actually real? Is there an eBay for washing machine data? Is it an API that streams it out in real time that they expose or do they just give you a 100GB CSV?
A washing machine that is networked can be scheduled to run automatically when electricity prices are low, or when your local solar panels are at full production.
Unfortunately, it can also be used to pipe data from your TV that you intentionally have not hooked up to the internet because you don’t trust the shady things certain TV manufacturers do with your data.
I wish that I could feed my washer and dryer into my home automation system, but I can’t. I want to do this so I know whether the laundry will get stinky or not. Right now I measure the power consumption and have a sensor on the door of my washer and dryer. That works, but imagine if I could just get an mqtt stream of events! I will never connect an appliance like that to my network in the real world, but I can dream!
I have a "dumb" washer and dryer and I would like to make them smart as well. Mainly I want alerts when the cycle stops. Can you share more details about your solution?
Far from it, for different reasons. All appliances will be network connected in the future as the world electricity supply shifts to renewables. It simply doesn't matter if my e.g. dishwasher switches on at 10PM when I press the button, just that it's ready the next morning. But it matters if it runs when electricity is expensive because of low wind or cheap because of high wind. Or if there's a lot of sun during the day or not. This will not need gigabytes of data though.
edit: should've read more, someone already mentioned it in the thread
but while I am here, another good example is for instance heating. I visited friends in their small mountain house recently and was wondering how they got it warm so quickly because they just got there. They said, oh we have a new oven, we switched it on remotely when we were on our way driving.
I have an app install on my phone for my Siemens dish washing machine.
Things that are genuinely useful about it:
- It tells me when a cycle has finished.
- It keeps count of used tablets and I can customize the count at which it reminds me that I need to get new ones.
- It tells me when I should do a "cleaning cycle", i.e. that I should run an empty load in "Machine Care" mode to avoid it starting to get odours. However, a bit annoying about this it only tells me as I turn on the dishwasher, i.e. just as I've finished loading it and am about to run it, it would be much better if it told me at the end of the previous cycle.
- I can schedule a cycle to begin/end at a particular time.
Mildly useful:
- I can see how much time is left of the cycle (it's a built-in unit meaning I can't see any display without opening it).
- From the app I can choose to "pause" the cycle for a little, this could be useful when watching TV or doing some other activity where you want quiet until later.
- I can use the app to select the desired mode and begin a cycle, however, this is only barely useful as I can't use the app until I press the power button on the dishwasher (however, not that relevant since if there's no tablet insert, there is no way it could possibly be started remotely anyway).
If there is no significant extra cost, I would like my next clothes washing machine to be able to send me a push notification when its cycle is done.
A smart oven would also potentially be nice in that you can remotely turn on the oven from a place like your office or at a particular time so that it's already heated by the time you get home, or you can tell it turn off after a timer.
I would definitely prefer if it was an open platform, but in truth, as a founder in small startup who also has young kids, I don't have the time right now to work out how to set up custom automations.
My new Samsung induction oven has an app. That app doesn’t do the only functionality I could ever care about - turn it on to preheat! Best it does is allow you to set the temp and bake/broil etc, but then you have to physically press start on the oven. What a silly waste of an app.
What you CANNOT do is reset a breaker via the app. And you never will, per my electrician, for safety reasons - is there a fire hazard? is someone working on the cabling? And so on.
Likely, during the development process of the product, an App was desired. And these ideas about remote preheating were included. But later removed when the conceptual process ended and the Regulatory Compliance phase was started.
> The idea of a washing machine, coffee maker, refrigerator, etc. including a network card strikes me as a solution in search of a problem.
There are tons of problems that networking these solves. Maybe minor to most people, but convenience is key.
A common example for me: If I am packing for a trip last minute and doing laundry, I don’t want to have to keep going down two flights to check if my washer or dryer is done, disrupting what I am doing.
But I don’t like the idea of everything being connected, so I will live with the problem.
My washing machine shows how many minutes it will take based on the combination of options chosen. I mostly just remember the number and walk down after so many minutes. Or I could put a timer for that many minutes on my watch. No need for a network stack and spyware on the washing machine.
I'm wondering - are there developers who think that this functionality is something any user actually needs? Or is it the higher-up part of the company pushing on "we need internet connectivity in every appliance we put out and we need it by yesterday"?
It's worse than a "solution in search of a problem." It's a problem in and of itself. Networked appliances almost always need some remote back-end to talk to. But companies don't have much incentive to maintain those back-ends for the 10-year+ life of a washing machine, coffee maker, refrigerator, etc.
So you end up in at least one of two situations: Either you lose functionality over time as companies deprecate those back-ends even though the hardware is still good (i.e., forced obsolescence leading to e-waste), and/or your outdated device ends up being a target for botnets to propagate themselves.
I am a practical person and I'm not above trading convenience for security, but I have quite a few "smart" devices at home that endlessly blink waiting for me to connect them to a network as I utterly see no point in that.
If the execution wasn't shit, I would love it. It's not important, but I would find it fun if I could control/get data from these devices over network.
I'd pcap a bunch of the traffic -- in particular the DNS requests -- that will tell you where it is connecting. Hopefully it is using TLS, and then the SNI headers can give you more information.
I run a local DNS resolver and so I capture all the lookup responses so that I can turn IP addresses back into names. Depending on what firewall/router you have, you may be able to log connections. I use a locally hosted free Gravwell process to grab these logs and correlate with the DNS queries to find which systems are talking to where. If your home network is like mine, then there are probably a bunch of systems that you want to block from talking outside.
For those interested, you can setup tcpdump on Asus router pretty easily to monitor traffic going through the router. You don't even need to mess with the firmware on the router.
It may be worth sandboxing it into a dedicated network then analyze the traffic and see what it does in detail, for example if it accesses the local network then relays something outside, or if it opens ports waiting for connections, etc.
I wonder if merely downloading so much data and storing it into its internal flash could wear it in a short time forcing the user to call for repair.
Does it stop functioning intermittently? I've seen cases of devices in the middle of a failed OTA, and the device keeps requesting the OTA again. If it's going on and offline often, this might the case.
Have you tried tcpdump’ing its payload on your router? If it’s plain text it should be obvious what it’s doing. If it isn’t you can still sniff which domains it’s connecting to from SNI ClietnHello message but payload will be encrypted. You can still get to it but that would require some decent soldering and hw debugging skills…
If you have a openwrt router than it should be quite simple. Redirect the traffic from the ip of the washing machine to a machine that has mitmproxy installed (using iptables). Hopefully the protocol is https and it doesn't have some form of certificate pinning. That should get you the raw requests/responses.
The next post in that thread is even weirder. Apparently, you can use the Wi-Fi functionality to.. "download cycles"? Like, the machine itself includes some presets for certain washing procedures/cycles, and the app provides additional ones. But the question is *why?* Why didn't they just include them on the washing machine's hardware? It's not like you'd need updates for these cycles - imagine needing to download Denim Wash 1.4 or something.
now that would be something. imagine future washing instructions on your clothes label stating which version of a wash cycle is required.
on the other hand, some way to tell the washing machine what clothes are inside by letting it scan the labels so that it can automatically pick the right cycle, now that would be useful.
I put all these 'smart' devices on separate network (wifi) that has adguard home as resolver. It makes ir relatively easy to identify what is which device talking to and even block it.
It would be mildly useful to get alerts when a load is done. I know I've forgotten about laundry in the washer for a while that I wouldn't have minded a notification on my phone that it was done. Or if some maintenance needed to be done, a reminder. Or one could schedule usage during certain hours to minimize energy usage.
My washing machine beeps when the load is complete; I think it continues to beep every few minutes for half an hour or more.
There's a simple delay-start button too.
Since it's necessary to be at the machine to load or unload clothes, I think the only possibly gain from a network would be rescheduling a delayed start earlier/later/not-at-all.
I had basically hooked up the washer to wifi when we first got it and forgot about it. The thing is, the washer doesn't let you disconnect the wifi after it's configured. It only allows you to switch to a different wifi and only if that wifi has internet.
I have LG Washer connected to my network. The network stack on my model is terrible and would constantly fail after period of time receiving multicast packets from other devices. I had to segment it on to it's own SSID/VLAN/IP Address and ensure no other traffic reached it. It has been stable since then.
Mine has only used 3MB over the last month, which seems low.
As to why. It is connected to home automation system and will announce on Sonos when the wash (or dry) is complete. I also had it connected to LEDs on light switch that would blink when clothes were in the machines waiting to get moved.
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THe problem is that they are including this network connectivity in a completely closed down way where you, the user, do not actually have any control over what is sent to or from the device. that kind of connection I agree is worse than useless: actively malicious and bad, and I would pay extra to not have it.
They should just provide a local API, conforming to a standard, and then 3rd party remote control software could drive it. The physical UI on the machine itself is then just and on/off start/stop button.
On the other hand, it's nice to get a notification when the cycle is done if I'm on the other side of the house. Refrigerator sending a notification to my phone if the door isn't closed could come in handy some day too.
Depending on what their sensors can collect, usage data could certainly be helpful in building a more robust product.
I'm actually really curious, as someone far away, what does this actually look like?
Are PMs at these companies putting data collection stuff into their roadmaps "just in case," or is this a directive that comes from the higher ups with a specific business plan for how they are going to monetize the data? How does someone actually buy washing machine data? Are they selling the data? If so, where, how, to whom? Do I approach LG or does LG approach me? Are the numbers of how much money these companies are making on data actually real? Is there an eBay for washing machine data? Is it an API that streams it out in real time that they expose or do they just give you a 100GB CSV?
So many questions. So many.
Unfortunately, it can also be used to pipe data from your TV that you intentionally have not hooked up to the internet because you don’t trust the shady things certain TV manufacturers do with your data.
edit: should've read more, someone already mentioned it in the thread
but while I am here, another good example is for instance heating. I visited friends in their small mountain house recently and was wondering how they got it warm so quickly because they just got there. They said, oh we have a new oven, we switched it on remotely when we were on our way driving.
Things that are genuinely useful about it:
- It tells me when a cycle has finished.
- It keeps count of used tablets and I can customize the count at which it reminds me that I need to get new ones.
- It tells me when I should do a "cleaning cycle", i.e. that I should run an empty load in "Machine Care" mode to avoid it starting to get odours. However, a bit annoying about this it only tells me as I turn on the dishwasher, i.e. just as I've finished loading it and am about to run it, it would be much better if it told me at the end of the previous cycle.
- I can schedule a cycle to begin/end at a particular time.
Mildly useful:
- I can see how much time is left of the cycle (it's a built-in unit meaning I can't see any display without opening it).
- From the app I can choose to "pause" the cycle for a little, this could be useful when watching TV or doing some other activity where you want quiet until later.
- I can use the app to select the desired mode and begin a cycle, however, this is only barely useful as I can't use the app until I press the power button on the dishwasher (however, not that relevant since if there's no tablet insert, there is no way it could possibly be started remotely anyway).
If there is no significant extra cost, I would like my next clothes washing machine to be able to send me a push notification when its cycle is done.
A smart oven would also potentially be nice in that you can remotely turn on the oven from a place like your office or at a particular time so that it's already heated by the time you get home, or you can tell it turn off after a timer.
I would definitely prefer if it was an open platform, but in truth, as a founder in small startup who also has young kids, I don't have the time right now to work out how to set up custom automations.
Leave the door cracked so the drum can completely dry between uses and the machine will never smell.
Same goes for washing machines.
I have a Smart Load Center (main electrical panel) from Leviton (https://www.leviton.com/en/products/residential/load-centers...). It does a lot of thing, can show me events of power loss etc., current draw per circuit, etc., etc.
What you CANNOT do is reset a breaker via the app. And you never will, per my electrician, for safety reasons - is there a fire hazard? is someone working on the cabling? And so on.
There are tons of problems that networking these solves. Maybe minor to most people, but convenience is key.
A common example for me: If I am packing for a trip last minute and doing laundry, I don’t want to have to keep going down two flights to check if my washer or dryer is done, disrupting what I am doing.
But I don’t like the idea of everything being connected, so I will live with the problem.
Deleted Comment
So you end up in at least one of two situations: Either you lose functionality over time as companies deprecate those back-ends even though the hardware is still good (i.e., forced obsolescence leading to e-waste), and/or your outdated device ends up being a target for botnets to propagate themselves.
IoT is such a damn scam in the long-term.
The execution, however, is almost always shit.
* Smart Air Filter
* Smart Air Fryer
* Smart Meat Thermometer
* Smart Sous Vide
* Smart Coffee Maker
* Smart Blinds
If anyone has any ideas on how to investigate this, I'm open to ideas. As of now, I've just blocked the internet access.
I run a local DNS resolver and so I capture all the lookup responses so that I can turn IP addresses back into names. Depending on what firewall/router you have, you may be able to log connections. I use a locally hosted free Gravwell process to grab these logs and correlate with the DNS queries to find which systems are talking to where. If your home network is like mine, then there are probably a bunch of systems that you want to block from talking outside.
1. Install Entware https://github.com/Entware/Entware/wiki/Install-on-Asus-stoc...
2. Then install tcpdump: `opkg install tcpdump`
From there, you can monitor any traffic going through your router.
Looking at my router log, the only web history request is:
2024-1-08 19:44:10 LG_Smart_Laundry2_open aic-common.lgthinq.com
This was likely after I had removed it from my main wifi and reconnected it to a segregated wifi. I don't see any logs for prior to this point.
Depending on the details in each of the layers[1] you might be able to spoof traffic towards it to trick it things.
you may need to try MITM the certs/key exchange stuff[2], hopefully they have a broken implementation that doesnt validate signatures etc.
[1]: https://www.bmc.com/blogs/osi-model-7-layers/
[2]: first promising hit when i googled: https://gbhackers.com/mitm-attack-https-connection-ssl-strip...
on the other hand, some way to tell the washing machine what clothes are inside by letting it scan the labels so that it can automatically pick the right cycle, now that would be useful.
But these are not super important use cases.
There's a simple delay-start button too.
Since it's necessary to be at the machine to load or unload clothes, I think the only possibly gain from a network would be rescheduling a delayed start earlier/later/not-at-all.
https://twitter.com/Johnie/status/1744795720480411927
I had basically hooked up the washer to wifi when we first got it and forgot about it. The thing is, the washer doesn't let you disconnect the wifi after it's configured. It only allows you to switch to a different wifi and only if that wifi has internet.
https://gist.github.com/Jonathan727/9ef58e7a64806d1e01112b20...
Mine has only used 3MB over the last month, which seems low.
As to why. It is connected to home automation system and will announce on Sonos when the wash (or dry) is complete. I also had it connected to LEDs on light switch that would blink when clothes were in the machines waiting to get moved.