Am I the only one disappointed in AMD for still not releasing a proper PC gaming APU and instead they keep trickling down these lukewarm parts to us like it's the best thing since slice bread when they already have the monster X86 Ryzen-RDNA APU from the PS5 and Xbox released 3 years ago, which slap these new PC APUs into oblivion at gaming.
So why can't they just strip the proprietary Sony/Microsoft IP from the silicone and release a PC version of those APUs?
They're still just bog standard Ryzen-RDNA parts with more graphic CUs and higher TDP than what they sell for the PC, and the PC motherboards can take higher TDPs of the PS5/Xbox APUs anyway. So what gives AMD? Why you playing us like that?
Because PS5/XSX SoCs are way too power hungry for laptops and too impractical for desktops. They’re designed to be cheap to produce for a console which means they use fewer transistors and run in high clock speed leading to higher power and cooling requirements than laptops can handle. Discrete Nvidia GPUs blows it out of the water on desktop. So do standalone desktop CPUs.
Furthermore, they use unified GDDR RAM which has high bandwidth but also high latency. The CPU would not be competitive. This is unlike Apple Silicon which takes the more expensive route by using LPDDR5 with many channels.
I think what you want is an efficient SoC with a very large GPU. Basically an M3 Max. But Apple is way ahead of AMD at making mobile SoCs. It would also cost $3000+ starting - which brings us back to the territorial of Nvidia GPUs having more value if you’re a gamer.
With that said, I think chip makers were woken up by Apple or caught with their pants down. I do think we will see bigger GPUs in SoCs on laptops and desktops. Nvidia is rumored to be making an Apple Silicon Competitor. Qualcomm is with their Nuvia based chips. AMD and Intel are putting bigger and bigger GPUs into their SoCs.
To go further, iGPUs need much more ram throughput than they have now. 128-bit ram is not enough!
I'd love love love to see an m1 style on-package ram, but I don't think it's likely (in the next couple years). What is happening though - if things go ok - is Strix Halo.
This announcement today is a desktop Hawk Point (same specs but higher power than existing mobile Hawk Point: 8c Z4, 16MB L3, 12 CU 780m GPU). Next APU due end of year or early next year is Strix Point, on Zen5+??. The real excitement though: there's supposed to be a "big" Strix Point called Strix Halo coming out a bit after that is alleged to boast a double wide 256b DDR5 memory interface. That doubled-up memory bandwidth should provide the headroom to go from good to great!
I really hope we get some ridiculous gaming decks with Strix Halo. Just turn off half the chip when on battery, but plug it on, put it on an actively cooled dock, and bamo, monster beast system. Hey, a nerd can dream, right?
The 8700G should be roughly as powerful as an Xbox Series S. These modern APUs have come a long way. I suspect they don't bother making them much more powerful because the cost/performance ratio can't compete with the standard CPU+GPU combos.
It's more complicated it isn't that they can't. Desktop memory is still behind GPU memory in bandwidth. So making a GPU greater than a certain footprint looses efficiency. However you could probably achieve low-midrange dGPU performance.
I don't know that there's much of a market for a desktop APU. People who don't care about graphics can use the CPUs with built-in graphics; most people who do care about graphics are likely going to prefer a dedicated card, possibly from Nvidia anyway. There just aren't a lot of people looking for a non-upgradable desktop
>So why can't they just strip the proprietary Sony/Microsoft IP from the silicone and release a PC version of those APUs?
They could, but it would run like shit. DDR4 is way too low bandwidth for video memory. Zen2 was a pretty slow architecture to begin with; the ancient 14nm Intel CPUs are faster.
For those keeping score: consoles are getting behind AMD's current tech -- a generation behind on the memory (DDR4 vs 5), 10 nm behind on the CPU fab (14nm vs 4nm), and two generations behind on the zen architecture (Zen 2 vs Zen 4). I guess that means we are due for a new console generation in the next year or two? Which will probably be based on this faster, better 8000G series (or the next one).
I believe they never release good APUs because they would cut into the market for video cards... So the best APU has to be inferior to a mediocre GPU combo.
Most interesting to me is the built-in NPU / "AI Accelerator" / Ryzen AI / XDNA. While descriptions of the chip are relatively easy to find, I haven't yet found out how the thing is programmed. Hetergeneous programming across APU, GPU, and NPU is going to be interesting.
300euros for the 8700g, perfect for a mini-PC to play dota2 on my custom linux distro.
I would push the envelop for a dirt cheap motherboard, without network or audio chips, only many USB-C high-speed ports (and dongles for those). I guess the power supply or battery pack will be the most expensive component after the APU and before the RAM.
Audio and ethernet are probably cheaper onboard than with whatever you need to enable usb-c and an external dongle.
The real way to get a cheaper board is going chipsetless; something knoll3 like this [1], but without the fancy bits. Single 1g ethernet, no ipmi, no oculink, and the price probably comes way down. Although, I do see there's a MSI PRO A620M-E Micro ATX out there for $75, so maybe we can have a chipset after all.
We don't need a chipset at all: we have the APU USB and NVMe disk. RAM slots, PCIE slots, M.2 slots and a bunch of usb-c connectors, power connectors, an UEFI bios, and we are good to go.
But for the normal users, yeah, an audio chip and a Gbits network chip would be appropriate (probably routed directly to some APU PCIE pins).
I'm more interested in the custom linux distro part, was it hard to setup?
I used to dabble a lot with Linux and its how I got my career in tech actually.
Closest I got to something like that was a gentoo distro, although I think I messed something up because I wasn't able to boot into it after all that setup.
Most of open source SDKs are abominations and code is being literaly brain fucked by ultra-complex syntax languages like c++, rust and similar. I am disgusted, to a point for me, open source software is now hardly less worse than msft or apple trash.
I have open source software only because I can still customize it enough to let me bear with it and it is free as in free beer.
That to say, the amount of insane and broken knowledge you need to properly maintain a fully custom linux distro (very custom) is obscene.
I am trying to find ways out of some of the critical issues for myself, basically trying to move a mountain with a spoon.
I'm still a little sad they aren't at least allowing 90W parts. More power breathing room and maybe another 4-8 GPU CUs would make for a compelling entry tier gaming rig.
These parts could also be interesting for NAS and other home server setups if the monolithic die leads to better idle power usage and they haven't lost ECC support. Unfortunately getting verified ECC support in AM5 seems to be quite difficult. In AM4 it was easy but ECC on APUs was only enabled on the PRO parts which were only sold to OEMs.
As someone with four Ryzen 7 PRO 5750GEs, I’ll say I’m looking forward to whenever the Ryzen 7 PRO 8750GEs exist. :)
In raw CPU performance, I found the 5750GE was 90-92% of the CPU performance of a 5700X, but capped out at a total package power of just 39W. 5750GEs made for fantastic home server CPUs, so here’s hoping there’ll be an 8750GE later this year (plus some ASRock Rack mATX motherboards with ECC support and BMCs).
I agree the OEM only was a pain. I had to get my 5750GEs through mostly disassemblers/recyclers, though some boutique shops like QuietPC buy a half tray of them at a time to sell directly to end users, so keep on the lookout!
It's worth noting AMD already included minimal GPUs in the desktop line for the Zen 4 generation, including video encode/decode. These, with the exception of the 8300G model, simply have larger GPUs but smaller cache and this might not be a good trade off for a NAS. The exception is the 8300G which is a good budget option having only 4 cores and no parallel in the desktop line.
AM5 has iGPU in all parts which makes it easier to use as server indeed. But normal AM5 parts are chiplet designs so they idle at relatively high power. These are monolithic dies from the laptop line so they have that going for them. According to the AMD website ECC support is enabled in these too:
What's the easiest way to cheaply get ECC on AM5 working w/ separate GPUs nowadays? I currently have an ASRock B450 AM4 motherboard + ECC memory + Ryzen 5 3600 and while I think ECC works, I'm not certain.
I with there were a "cheap ECC on <AMD newest socket>" guide where the components and settings were validated by a reputable party.
Nothing to praise AMD about:
1. Same greedy strategy to sell 8 cores with top igpu while put heavily cut down igpu to 4 and 6 cores. Nobody need 8 cores for this little gpu performance. In fact you have to disable half of cores to get better fps and most users of RDNA handhelds already did it. Steam deck have 4 cores for the same reason.
2. 780M is rebranded 680M released 2 years ago with same performance. Before it, AMD had been rebranding vega for 3 years.
3. Intel igpu is already on pair in laptops. 15 gen will have same igpu performance and same cuts as AMD while having cheaper 2 and 4 cores for casual players.
4. AMD drivers still awful and most gamers switch to Nvidia just because of it and never look back.
5. “Insane gaming performance ” is equal to performance of 8 years old 1060 that can be bought for 30 euros. New parts like 6500, A380 or 1650 GDDR6 are available for 100-150 euro. Gaming PC for kids with performance of 300+ euro 8700g can be built for 100 euro (chinese LGA 2011-3 Xeon + RX 570 refab).
6. Non gamers have no reason to buy APU at all. It will stay as niche of SFF and corporate boxes.
I had an AMD APU setup that I used for a while as a light gaming rig. I'm impressed to see these chips continue to grow in capability and be offered at reasonable prices.
I'm curious how the FOSS video driver for these fares on Linux. The newest discrete cards have random full system lockups and driver crashes that make them unusable for anything that stresses the GPU.
I have had a Ryzen 7 Pro 3700U based Thinkpad T495 since 2019, running Fedora.
I can't remember many full system lockups, but there may have been a few. I ran Steam games on it for a year or two before switching those to a different system. But I ran a number of Linux native or Proton-based games and it was the best performing system I had for a while.
What I do recall is that OpenCL barely worked and could get into strange "stuck" states only resolved by rebooting. I could still use the windowing system for a bit, but some kernel calls seemed to begin hanging. It was very disappointing, as I knew this machine had a lot of FLOPS I could have put to use if the OpenCL drivers worked.
One quirk I never resolved in Linux is that the mouse pointer would seem to jump around sometimes while typing. I haven't seen this on any other Thinkpad and it seemed to persist across multiple different Fedora installations. No adjustments to the "mouse" controls menu seemed to make a difference.
I recently started using a Ryzen 7 Pro 7840U based Thinkpad P14s. It doesn't seem to have either of these two issues, but I haven't used it for very long. I find it to be an impressive machine so far.
Green screen of death indeed.
Had them on 4800h laptop regularly. Laptop worked fine on Windows. AMD already dropped support for vega igpu so I guess these will never work in Linux. May be RDNA drivers is better because Valve using them in Steam Deck. Still AMD can break it at any release as they did many times.
I have a dual-GPU setup, with a 6900 XT passed through to a Windows VM for games. So I guess I can't say anything about new cards having issues. But the amdgpu drivers are fantastic on the RX 570 that Linux does touch.
Can you point me to resources regarding these lockups? I regularly game on Linux using the FOSS amdgpu driver (kernel 6.5) with a 7900 XTX, which is relatively recent (i.e. RDNA3), and I haven't seen any yet.
I currently have a 3 year old 5800H APU from 2021, which replaced a 2400G (2018) I had before it. I've generally had no issues at all with the integrated graphics.
It says that highest SKU has Radeon 780M (12 CU) inside. That's exactly the same GPU as in 7940HS/7840HS and it scores slightly below 1060-3Gb cards in 3dmark.
The only difference between 7840HG and newer APUs is addition of the (useless?) NPU unit which functions are unclear to me. Train neural networks on a 35W APU?
I've entertained an idea of buying 7840HG SBC as a mini travel PC for 1080P. Still thinking :)
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So why can't they just strip the proprietary Sony/Microsoft IP from the silicone and release a PC version of those APUs?
They're still just bog standard Ryzen-RDNA parts with more graphic CUs and higher TDP than what they sell for the PC, and the PC motherboards can take higher TDPs of the PS5/Xbox APUs anyway. So what gives AMD? Why you playing us like that?
Furthermore, they use unified GDDR RAM which has high bandwidth but also high latency. The CPU would not be competitive. This is unlike Apple Silicon which takes the more expensive route by using LPDDR5 with many channels.
I think what you want is an efficient SoC with a very large GPU. Basically an M3 Max. But Apple is way ahead of AMD at making mobile SoCs. It would also cost $3000+ starting - which brings us back to the territorial of Nvidia GPUs having more value if you’re a gamer.
With that said, I think chip makers were woken up by Apple or caught with their pants down. I do think we will see bigger GPUs in SoCs on laptops and desktops. Nvidia is rumored to be making an Apple Silicon Competitor. Qualcomm is with their Nuvia based chips. AMD and Intel are putting bigger and bigger GPUs into their SoCs.
To go further, iGPUs need much more ram throughput than they have now. 128-bit ram is not enough!
I'd love love love to see an m1 style on-package ram, but I don't think it's likely (in the next couple years). What is happening though - if things go ok - is Strix Halo.
This announcement today is a desktop Hawk Point (same specs but higher power than existing mobile Hawk Point: 8c Z4, 16MB L3, 12 CU 780m GPU). Next APU due end of year or early next year is Strix Point, on Zen5+??. The real excitement though: there's supposed to be a "big" Strix Point called Strix Halo coming out a bit after that is alleged to boast a double wide 256b DDR5 memory interface. That doubled-up memory bandwidth should provide the headroom to go from good to great!
I really hope we get some ridiculous gaming decks with Strix Halo. Just turn off half the chip when on battery, but plug it on, put it on an actively cooled dock, and bamo, monster beast system. Hey, a nerd can dream, right?
They could, but it would run like shit. DDR4 is way too low bandwidth for video memory. Zen2 was a pretty slow architecture to begin with; the ancient 14nm Intel CPUs are faster.
Update: https://ryzenai.docs.amd.com/en/latest/
I would push the envelop for a dirt cheap motherboard, without network or audio chips, only many USB-C high-speed ports (and dongles for those). I guess the power supply or battery pack will be the most expensive component after the APU and before the RAM.
We are talking <500 euros serious gaming mini-PC.
The real way to get a cheaper board is going chipsetless; something knoll3 like this [1], but without the fancy bits. Single 1g ethernet, no ipmi, no oculink, and the price probably comes way down. Although, I do see there's a MSI PRO A620M-E Micro ATX out there for $75, so maybe we can have a chipset after all.
[1] https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=A...
But for the normal users, yeah, an audio chip and a Gbits network chip would be appropriate (probably routed directly to some APU PCIE pins).
I used to dabble a lot with Linux and its how I got my career in tech actually.
Closest I got to something like that was a gentoo distro, although I think I messed something up because I wasn't able to boot into it after all that setup.
Most of open source SDKs are abominations and code is being literaly brain fucked by ultra-complex syntax languages like c++, rust and similar. I am disgusted, to a point for me, open source software is now hardly less worse than msft or apple trash.
I have open source software only because I can still customize it enough to let me bear with it and it is free as in free beer.
That to say, the amount of insane and broken knowledge you need to properly maintain a fully custom linux distro (very custom) is obscene.
I am trying to find ways out of some of the critical issues for myself, basically trying to move a mountain with a spoon.
In raw CPU performance, I found the 5750GE was 90-92% of the CPU performance of a 5700X, but capped out at a total package power of just 39W. 5750GEs made for fantastic home server CPUs, so here’s hoping there’ll be an 8750GE later this year (plus some ASRock Rack mATX motherboards with ECC support and BMCs).
I agree the OEM only was a pain. I had to get my 5750GEs through mostly disassemblers/recyclers, though some boutique shops like QuietPC buy a half tray of them at a time to sell directly to end users, so keep on the lookout!
https://www.amd.com/en/product/14066
Power can probably be limited in the BIOS to whatever level you prefer.
There's also already AM5 ASRock Rack with ECC support in the specs:
https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=B...
https://www.amd.com/en/product/14066
It seems AM5 motherboards are back to having ECC confirmed in the specs after AMD AGESA updates:
https://www.asrock.com/MB/AMD/B650M%20Pro%20RS/index.asp#Spe...
So pending some benchmarks 8700G+B650+ECC sounds like a good home server that should idle at low power.
I with there were a "cheap ECC on <AMD newest socket>" guide where the components and settings were validated by a reputable party.
I'm curious how the FOSS video driver for these fares on Linux. The newest discrete cards have random full system lockups and driver crashes that make them unusable for anything that stresses the GPU.
I can't remember many full system lockups, but there may have been a few. I ran Steam games on it for a year or two before switching those to a different system. But I ran a number of Linux native or Proton-based games and it was the best performing system I had for a while.
What I do recall is that OpenCL barely worked and could get into strange "stuck" states only resolved by rebooting. I could still use the windowing system for a bit, but some kernel calls seemed to begin hanging. It was very disappointing, as I knew this machine had a lot of FLOPS I could have put to use if the OpenCL drivers worked.
One quirk I never resolved in Linux is that the mouse pointer would seem to jump around sometimes while typing. I haven't seen this on any other Thinkpad and it seemed to persist across multiple different Fedora installations. No adjustments to the "mouse" controls menu seemed to make a difference.
I recently started using a Ryzen 7 Pro 7840U based Thinkpad P14s. It doesn't seem to have either of these two issues, but I haven't used it for very long. I find it to be an impressive machine so far.
It says that highest SKU has Radeon 780M (12 CU) inside. That's exactly the same GPU as in 7940HS/7840HS and it scores slightly below 1060-3Gb cards in 3dmark.
The only difference between 7840HG and newer APUs is addition of the (useless?) NPU unit which functions are unclear to me. Train neural networks on a 35W APU?
I've entertained an idea of buying 7840HG SBC as a mini travel PC for 1080P. Still thinking :)
of course, this depends on a toolkit that abstracts the various competitors