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Posted by u/tallowen 2 years ago
Ask HN: How should I setup a phone for a newly blind relative?
I am home for the holidays and my grandfather is newly blind. He's never learned braille or anything else and I believe it can be a relatively isolating experience. While I'm in town for the holidays, I would love to help him get back into things like podcasts, audio books and WhatsApp. Does anyone have recommendations for how to help set this up?

He currently has an iPhone but if android phones are superior for blind users, I would happily help him switch.

nezza-_- · 2 years ago
Couple of things I learned from helping some blind people:

- All used iPhones (Check out https://www.apple.com/accessibility/vision/ )

- Disable passcode if he's okay with it

- Enable VoiceOver (Settings -> Accessibility) and learn how to enable/disable it (triple-tap the side button. Might be difficult for elderly) - Apple video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDm7GiKra28

- Having a learning partner really helps the blind person. Try to learn to use a phone blind with him, it will allow you to help debug his (most definitely occuring) issues

- Watch some videos on how blind people use the iPhone, lots of tips there. For example Molly Burke, or even simple ones like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FVjLXIaBC4

- For elderly, an iPad is really nice. Especially as dexterity gets worse it's easier to use blindly. Also usability between iPhone and iPad is almost the same, so easy transition between both (i.e. on the go)

- For movies, check out Greta. It plays the AD in parallel with a movie via the iPhone - so they can watch movies together with the family, without everyone listening to AD https://www.gretaundstarks.de/starks/GretaAndStarks

And bring lots of patience :)

What is really amazing is how fast people tend to improve: VoiceOver lets you adjust the speech speed etcpp, and so it "grows" with you

ceautery · 2 years ago
I worked under a blind manager when the iPhone first came out. He was a former dev before his vision started to go. He was a power user while blind, and knew twice as many hot keys as I did, had his screen reader speed cranked up to a rate incomprehensible to me.

I remember how happy he was with the iPhone. He said it was the first device he was able to use without special accessibility software, and that was in 2007, I imagine the experience is better today.

I’m sure you’re (OP) already on the ball with ways to help him, but if you haven’t looked into movies with described audio, apparently it makes a whale of a difference.

baz00 · 2 years ago
I was served by a blind person in the Apple Store this year who was using an iPhone as an aid. Absolutely amazing.
crooked-v · 2 years ago
One other non-obvious but major thing there for a newly blind person using an iPhone - the Magnifier app can generate basic spoken descriptions of whatever object or text you point it at [1][2], including following your hand to tell you what text is on button labels [3].

[1]: https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/receive-image-descrip...

[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI0KrPmS-DI

[3]: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7zHGBkkQGus

colingoodman · 2 years ago
You can also use Siri to enable/disable VoiceOver
lathiat · 2 years ago
Apple accessibility including VoiceOver is amazing and from everything I read second to none. Though I don’t have first hand experience on that, I did spend several hours one time lined up for an iPhone talking with a blind girl - she was showing me how she uses both her Mac and iPhone with voiceover and with the screen totally black. Was a fun night.
sleepychu · 2 years ago
Does it turn off the backlight too? I wonder what the battery life you get if you don't need the LCD is!
bregma · 2 years ago
I don't know if you're aware of the irony presented by suggesting videos about how to use a phone if you're visually impaired.
kelnos · 2 years ago
I read that as a suggestion for (sighted) OP to watch the videos so he could understand how to help his (blind) grandfather better.
midasuni · 2 years ago
The person asking isn’t blind
lexicality · 2 years ago
Is there a website that works like youtube but for audio only? Because otherwise thoughtfully produced videos are going to be the best way for someone who doesn't know how to use a screen reader efficiently to gather information.
gostsamo · 2 years ago
Either I'm not blind or I'm not using a phone, because I have an android. With pass phrase, thank you very much.

Both IPhone and Android have screen readers, with Android having the ability for alternative sr-s and voices. The Iphone is more integrated as far as I know, but the default google apps are pretty accessible on Android as well. There is a mailing list for blind android users if you want more advice, but if your grandfather is used to the Iphone, there is no reason not to use it. The default apple recourse on the topic is applevis, if I remember correctly.

1f60c · 2 years ago
"Every blind person this person has helped uses an iPhone" doesn't imply "every blind person uses an iPhone."

Deleted Comment

bcx · 2 years ago
My recommendation (in addition to the specific technology advice on this thread) is to connect (or help him connect) with an organization that helps blind folks adapt to blindness and specializes in using and training folks in using assistive technology.

If you are in the Bay Area, an organization like lighthouse for the blind would be a good place to start: https://lighthouse-sf.org/about/getting-started/ -- there are many regional organizations similar to this filled with good people who want to help.

Or: https://nfb.org/programs-services

Organizations like NFB and Lighthouse for the blind offer rehabilitation services and training, and might be able to provide some recommendations as well.

Also, you likely already know this, but there are many degrees of legal blindness, so the technology tooling varies based on specific challenge to overcome, and only 10% of the blind population knows braille.

If you really want to go down the technology rabbit hole, the CSUN conference in March is like the CES for assistive technology: https://www.csun.edu/cod/conference/sessions/

Assistive tech is a pretty fascinating area. I expect this area to grow as we have more aging tech savvy folks who want to keep using technology as they age.

xattt · 2 years ago
> My recommendation (in addition to the specific technology advice on this thread) is to connect (or help him connect) with an organization that helps blind folks adapt to blindness and specializes in using and training folks in using assistive technology.

If the family member is within the medical system, there would/should be an occupational therapist part of their care team that could identify and provide supports around day-to-day life.

We want to jump in to assist at times like this, but you and they are not alone if the supports are in place.

owenversteeg · 2 years ago
Hi Owen, I'm also Owen :)

My grandmother went blind in her old age. She is pretty intelligent and wanted to learn new things so I thought I'd try to set up VoiceOver and similar things mentioned in this thread - various assisted screen technologies. Unfortunately it was a complete failure. I think that for whatever reason, in general trying to teach new things to an elderly person who's newly blind is an uphill battle. If you don't think he'll be able to hack it I wouldn't try, it's somewhat demoralizing to fail at something at any age. My grandmother dealt well with it but it was clearly somewhat upsetting to fail to learn something, especially as she was proud of learning other things quickly throughout her life (for example learning to drive, where she passed her test the first try with minimal prior instruction.) If you do think he has a decent chance at learning it I would start slow and build your way up.

What did work was Siri, an audiobook player, and a Google Home connected to speakers. The one she uses most of the time is the audiobook player, it's a large chunky machine that takes CDs that she gets in the mail. Every so often she gets a menu of new available audiobooks and someone sits down with her to pick out which she'd like. The next most used is Siri on her iPhone. I set up her contacts with various easy-to-say names and now she can call whoever she needs whenever. She uses Siri 95% just to call people, the other 5% she occasionally does look something up or ask the weather but it's mostly just calls. The least used is the Google Home, which she uses to play classical music through the speakers.

One thing that's not technology related is that being blind is lonely. The biggest thing that helps with this is regular small interactions. Any way you can facilitate more short visits is good, for example with the mailman, neighbors stopping by, family, et cetera. Even short phone calls help. The best are the visits that happen "automatically" so they don't slow over time. For example if you plan a phone call once a week to pick out some new audiobooks or podcasts to put on his device of choice.

Good luck!

rramadass · 2 years ago
This is the most simple, straight-forward and workable solution.

Trying to teach elderly people involved usage of technology will be frustrating to them and everybody else. All they really need are social connections/emotional support and little bit of entertainment (source: living with and taking care of my Mother for the last decade of her life). Teach them simple things/phrases and have them use it on auto-pilot without too much thought. Automating the calling of people (Audio/Video) is the number one need/requirement. For further safety having a cctv-like setup so somebody can always check on them/interact with them remotely is also best.

dredmorbius · 2 years ago
Excellent point about training/teaching. I've also found that to be ... challenging. If at all possible, try to work on accessibility option whilst the person still has some sight remaining. It's going to be far easier to do so.

As I understand you're in the US, your grandmother might also benefit by the US Library of Congress NLS / BARD services I mention in another comment on this thread: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38410991>

arbitrarian · 2 years ago
Great advice so far in this thread. I would just add that the must have apps are Be My Eyes, as already mentioned. This allows him to snap a photo and have it described by ChatGPT4-vision for free. He can also ask for more info etc. And if that doesn't work out, he can call a volunteer for free, 24-7.

Another good one is Seeing AI. This one is from Microsoft, and it has all sorts of useful utilities inside it, including a way to tell how bright a room is (helps to know if you left lights on or not), a barcode scanner that gives you product info (it beeps at you faster or slower to let you know you're getting warmer), a color analyzer that kinda' works sometimes, a document reader with voice guidance to help you get the camera lined up, a currency reader, and I think a few more goodies.

Many countries also have a library service for the blind. In the United States, it's called the National Library Service for the Blind. Definitely get him setup with them, or your other country's library service. The one in the U.S. let's you download an app and download tens-of-thousands of audiobooks for free. They also have a few magazines that they record each month. It's pretty amazing, and all available from his phone. The app is called Bard Mobile in the U.S.

I happen to be blind myself, so feel free to ask anything else you would like. I've been doing this for a while, and there are several more of us here as well.

probably_wrong · 2 years ago
I know of two HN previous discussions on the topic, I suggest going through them as they're full of good advice:

3 months ago, 133 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37293002

8 years ago, 81 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9546311

My mom never got the hang out of using her iPhone with VoiceOver, but she uses Siri regularly ("Hey Siri, send a new WhatsApp message to Tom"). Siri is sometimes annoying because it will answer "this is what I found, take a look" which, unfortunate wording aside, is difficult for her to follow because (again) she never really got the hang of touch-only iPhone and therefore cannot scroll well through the options. It depends on how technical your grandfather is.

I wanted to set an Alexa as a music+podcasts+audiobooks station but the awful integration between Alexa in Spanish and Kindle cut that short. But you may have better luck.

hellotheretoday · 2 years ago
If he lives in the United States see if your state has a coalition of the blind. If you contact them for services and make it clear you are not looking for financial support but help with activities of daily living they may quickly help you with many things including this. If he does need financial support that is fine but be aware that might put him on a waiting list whereas if he has adequate income from social security/pension/401k/etc that makes the whole process significantly easier (usually, this likely varies wildly by state tbf)

Advice in this thread will be helpful but a person who can come to his home on a semi regular basis to help continually train will be far more beneficial. Additionally they can assist with a broader range of tasks like caning, adaptive equipment for meal prep, braille instruction, etc.

bfcpllc · 2 years ago
I’m a commercial building systems engineering consultant and business owner, and have been visually impaired for >30 years (juvenile type of macular degeneration onset as an early teen). While I’m partially signed, I generally follow this space (though do not claim to be an expert).

+1 for this suggestion of starting by reaching out to your State if you’re in the US (or other government entity if outside) as a starting point for assistance. My state’s division for the Blind and Visually Impaired (DBVI) resources have been very helpful over the years. They provide adaptive tech kit for free (e.g., iPads, PCs, large screens) and software/instruction for those who need it).

The OP didn’t indicate whether their grandparent is retired (suspecting so?) but in that case, sometimes the State’s path is a little different—they put a huge effort into workforce development, and sometimes different efforts into adaptive tech & services for folks not intending to return to the workforce. In our state, there is an association for the blind that I believes handles more of those cases (but I don’t know for sure).

I’ll also give a +1 for everyone I know who is blind and visually impaired having an iPhone. It’s possible that platforms could be nearing parity now, but in the early 2010s there was just zero competition. I use iOS built in accessibility features every day and they have (not exaggerating) changed my life from an accessibility standpoint.

TL:DR - Yes go to your state, definitely good with an iPhone, built in accessibility features are amazing.

mywacaday · 2 years ago
In case you haven't come across it already I recommend the app https://www.bemyeyes.com/. It allows the user to call a volunteer for assistance, I've volunteered on this for several years and have helped with everything from booking a holiday online, doing a needle prick for a diabetes to help wrap Christmas presents. The app looks to have gotten ChatGPT like AI help as well recently.
wizzwizz4 · 2 years ago
I think it is actually ChatGPT – and it's one of the few genuinely beneficial uses of the technology. Sure, you have to watch out for it making up an "explanation" of what's in the image, but if you treat it like a whimsical, self-absorbed prankster, it's so much better than not having it.

I'm looking forward to a system that only describes what it sees (and what can be drawn from it), rather than doing stuff like trying to explain non-visual jokes (that, inevitably, it doesn't get). As I understand, that would require training new models from scratch, on training data that might not yet exist – but unlike the majority of the LLM GenAI hypey nonsense, this is actually a real, useful tool.

TheEaterOfSouls · 2 years ago
I'm blind and I use a 13B LLaVA model locally. I haven't checked with a sighted person about how accurate the image descriptions are, but it seems to generally do okay (described some recent vacation photos pretty well, except sometimes it would list objects that I'm pretty sure aren't actually there in the images). Haven't tried GPT via Be My Eyes because I prefer using my laptop over my phone, but I imagine it'd be a lot better. For now I make regular use of the local model with a shell alias when I want something described, even solved a captcha that I couldn't OCR with it the other day. So yeah, this is one application of ML I'm really excited about, the other being Whisper (speech transcription), because I have profound hearing loss and can use it to transcribe things I can't hear in the audio.
ska · 2 years ago
Fwiw, I've been on a bunch of these calls and often the first problem is the phone isn't pointed quite right at the thing they are asking about. This would be difficult for a chatbot I think.
ska · 2 years ago
It's been around for ages, I think the ChatGPT stuff is pretty recent.

One really smart thing they do is localize the volunteers as much as possible, so often if the question is something like "Am I at the corner of X & Y" there is a good change you (the volunteer) know the area, etc.

Things I have learned on the "volunteer" side: keeping track of canned food is often a problem, people worry about their outfits a fair bit, and parks are sometime difficult because there are lots of alternate paths/routes.

stacktrust · 2 years ago
There's an Android phone for blind people, https://blindshellusa.com/, which includes an NFC reader+app (https://WayAround.com) for tags that can be attached to clothes, packaged goods, fridge containers, etc.

On iPhones, you can use Shortcuts to make an audio announcement after tapping any NFC tag, even an expired transit ticket! No app needed.

For elderly not already familiar with phones, Alexa can answer or place landline calls, play streaming radio/podcasts, provide directions between rooms (using multiple Alexas), control TVs via IR remote, maintain shopping lists, announce appointments from Google calendar maintained by caregivers, provide timed medication reminders, make audio announcements based on door/motion sensors, ask Tile to locate (ring) objects, control microwaves, turn on/off lights & more, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37295992

cf100clunk · 2 years ago
From what I can see on the https://blindshellusa.com/ site, there are no large-button models. My friends nearing the sunset of life would appreciate the hardware buttons but be unhappy with their small size.