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vanilla_nut · 3 years ago
Notably, Europe doesn't just accommodate bicycles in cities: it's also much more comfortable to bike on rural roads, thanks to lower speed limits, smaller cars, better drivers, and more conscious design when it comes to designating roads vs. streets vs. highways. Bicycle routes (sometimes called byways) are also a hell of a lot better, and are actually viable ways to travel between nearby cities in many cases.

I just spent a month bicycling around the UK. I knew the infrastructure was better than in the USA, but it blew my mind to see how even motorways often had bicycle & pedestrian paths off to the side. And almost all bridges seem to have a sidewalk, often one big enough to comfortably fit bikes and pedestrians. That's something we don't even get in the most pedestrian friendly US cities (citation: the Queensborough bridge in NYC).

And the funniest part? People in the UK complain about their infrastructure constantly, and frequently asked me why I was cycling there instead of the Netherlands, or France, or Spain, or Italy, or any other European country.

Infrastructure in the USA is a nightmare and an absolute embarrassment. I fear for my life every time I walk or bike here in shared space with drivers. I suspect a lot of this stems from the fact that around half of Americans have never left the continent of North America [1]. It's hard to realize just how bad our infrastructure is when you have no point of comparison and all of our infra sucks.

It's so frustrating because it's so simple: I just want to ride my bike and walk around. That requires very little infrastructure. I shouldn't have to wrap up my entire identity up in bicycling and walking just because most of our country doesn't bother with those activities.

[1](https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealane/2019/05/02/percentage-o...).

jmclnx · 3 years ago
>Infrastructure in the USA is a nightmare and an absolute embarrassment

And in the US, that will never change. An example from 2023 (yes this year).

The State where I live has a law all road construction/repairs is suppose to allow for what here in the US is called a "Bike Path". That really means a 2 feet (2/3 meter) wide shoulder on each side of the road. It is delimited by white paint that will be allowed to fade. On this "path" is painted a bicycle every so often, that will also fade and never be maintained.

So, a road near where I live, a bridge was replaced. The Plans called for construction of this "path" to accommodate cycling on this road. Construction completed a week ago, no white line was even painted. The plans only mentioned it so construction would be allowed to start. Since it is complete, the excuse is "Oh we forgot".

This is in a State that is pushing Cycling as an alternative to Driving to work. So in the US, do not hold your breath, we will continue with doing all we can to increase the average global temperature until no one will be able to go outside in the deep South during the Summer.

loganwedwards · 3 years ago
I live in South Carolina and was nodding in agreement reading your reply.
l1tany11 · 3 years ago
“We’re gonna paint little white bicycle stencils on the shoulder and you’re gonna like it!”
taylodl · 3 years ago
Our roadways are a mess, our healthcare is a mess, our K-12 education is a mess, a lot of our food is unfit for consumption in Europe - what are we doing? As the United States continues to crumble from within its citizens keep thinking it's the best place in the world and refuse to acknowledge there are serious issues needing addressed. It's become quite insane.
banannaise · 3 years ago
You know how a con man whose scheme is unraveling will resort to more and more desperate measures to keep it alive for as long as possible?

This is that.

autokad · 3 years ago
>I suspect a lot of this stems from the fact that around half of Americans have never left the continent of North America

Some Americans have this world European fetish and think all Europeans are so well traveled and worldly. 40% of Europeans have never been to another country let alone another continent.

vanilla_nut · 3 years ago
There are places in the UK where you can catch a ferry round-trip to Europe for less than 100 quid. There are places in almost every European country where you can catch a train to another country for less than 100 euro.

Unless you're traveling to Mexico or Canada (which are just not that different from the US in terms of infrastructure), Americans face at least a $500 round-trip plane ticket and around 10 hours of travel each way. More realistically, ~$1000 for a ticket at a reasonable time between reasonable points.

It's just a different order of magnitude of cost to visit places with different infra and culture.

peterbraden · 3 years ago
source pls?
marcinzm · 3 years ago
>I suspect a lot of this stems from the fact that around half of Americans have never left the continent of North America [

It may also have something to do with the UK having almost 10x the population density of the US.

voisin · 3 years ago
The simple thing to do would be to look at comparably dense areas of each country. The result will be the same conclusion as OP. Even the densest places in the US have shitty infrastructure.
greatpatton · 3 years ago
A lot of place in the US have a comparable population density. Nobody is discussing the creation of a bicycle highway across Wyoming.

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basisword · 3 years ago
>> blew my mind to see how even motorways often had bicycle & pedestrian paths off to the side

Unless something changed recently I don't think this is true of the UK. You can't ride anything under 125CC on a UK motorway and cycling/walking is illegal. Maybe you mean dual carriageways?

Lio · 3 years ago
I don’t think the comment is about riding on the motorway, which as you say is illegal, but to the side next to the motorway on an adjacent path.

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TomK32 · 3 years ago
Lower speed limits? 100km/h on rural roads here in Austria and drivers just don't care enough to keep to those limits. Smaller cars? Thanks to the SUV it has become a nightmare with those massive cars that cause a lot of wind turbulence when they overtake you on your bike.

Cycling in European cities is basically just pure luck and depends far to much on the local legislation and the major. The last local election in Spain has put a lot of conservative and right-wing majors into office, many openly campaigning with turn-backs on all the work Spain has put into creating cycling infrastructure. Here in Austria the neofascists Freedom Party interprets freedom and being able to drive and park everywhere by car, same for the convservative Bundeskanzler who is in a coalition with a toothless Green party. Being a cycling advocate is a fight for each and every cycling path and even then the local city planners can still mess up and build the worst possible solution.

TrueGeek · 3 years ago
There is effectively no speed limit in many rural areas in the US as it's unmonitored that far from cities. It's not uncommon to get passed by a pickup, with a grill literally 6 feet in the air, going either 130 km/h or slowing to a near stop right before it passes you and then going as fast as it can and "rolling coal" [1].

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal

CalRobert · 3 years ago
It is hard to describe the utter freedom I feel from being able to get on my bike and safely go... Anywhere. Even with my kids as passengers. It feels like I've escaped prison. Too bad I had to move to the Netherlands for it. But it's wonderful.
hypertele-Xii · 3 years ago
If you add to that the right to camp in private woods, it becomes truly liberating. Here in Finland we call it "jokamiehenoikeus", "every man's right", or "freedom to roam". You can set up tent in any forest, regardless of land ownership.
mulmen · 3 years ago
Huh, that sounds neat but is a foreign concept to my American sensibilities. How far does that right extend? What's the line between a tent and a cabin? How much are you allowed to modify the environment to make it suitable for camping? How long are you allowed to stay before moving on? Are you required to remove your waste? How close can you be to an established dwelling?
AnimalMuppet · 3 years ago
Scotland also has freedom to roam. I don't know if goes as far as camping, but it definitely allows walking on private property.
sershe · 3 years ago
That's how I felt after finally ditching car-free lifestyle at 30 (including selling my 2nd bike and letting my main one rot in sheds/parking garages/basements) and starting to drive everywhere ;)
errantmind · 3 years ago
Living in the US, I often fantasize about living somewhere I can bike freely in the sense the article describes. Somewhere bikes are actually prioritized over cars, not just accommodated. Preferably no cars at all. So far, my search had come up dry.
Eric_WVGG · 3 years ago
NYC is honestly great for cycling. Say what you will about Bloomberg (or, allow me: scum), but his transportation secretary Janette Sadik-Khan did so much to turn this into a cycling city. If De Blasio and Adams had followed that lead, our cycling infrastructure would be second only to Amsterdam by now.

(and yeah I lived in Portland too)

woodruffw · 3 years ago
I tend to agree with you (on both the infrastructure and your opinion of Bloomberg) -- the city is, overwhelmingly, a far better place to cycle than when I was a kid.

At the same time, it's been my impression that there's been a backslide over the last few years: cyclist deaths are way up (and continue to rise), and I see way more obviously illegal cars (missing plates, defaced plates, etc.) and driving behavior (rolling through reds, turning on reds, etc.) on the streets than I used to. The city badly needs enforcement of these behaviors, both as a matter of public safety and a form of incentive and fine alignment.

gghhzzgghhzz · 3 years ago
We had a similar political issue in the UK. Boris Johnson was a polarising figure, yet many people had to admit that what he and his active transport advisor Andrew Gilligan promised to do for cycling and active transport infrastructure and livable neighbourhoods was game changing.

Unfortunately it never completed, because when he went then so did the good work, the funding, and now it's back to being a culture war 'war on drivers' issue.

gaoshan · 3 years ago
Much of a city in China I have spent a lot of time in (Hangzhou) has protected bike lanes with their own signals and crossings. They do still interact with traffic at the crossings but the lanes are wide and well protected from vehicles. I really like using them and wish we had something like that where I live in the US.
ipnon · 3 years ago
Portland is probably the best biking city. It’s not perfect but in many neighborhoods it’s very cumbersome to drive and easy to bike. Drivers are also much less hostile in general.
femiagbabiaka · 3 years ago
I disagree actually, I took my bike there and rode around/commuted for about a week from within the city (not downtown). It was mostly just OK, I think its high bike score shows the issues with Bike Score in general. Bike commuters are very organized in Portland which is nice, but I had so many instances of having to ride in traffic. I'm ok with that and used to that biking in Oakland, CA, but it's not really emblematic of what a bike friendly city is to me.

Of the Tier 2 American cities, I think Minneapolis is the best at accommodating bikers, winter climate excepted.

vanilla_nut · 3 years ago
I have heard that bicycle commuting has dropped significantly in Portland since 2020. And I've experienced enough of an increase in broken glass, aggressive driving, tents, and trash in bike lanes in other US cities to be a bit worried about the current state of bicycling in Portland. But I'm also aware that reporting has significant biases, and I haven't been back to Portland since 2019 or so. What's the current situation like?
zwieback · 3 years ago
I agree, Portland is making a real effort as are other areas in the Willamette Valley. I actually think the Europe=paradise US=hell storyline is far from any reality I observe. When I go back to Stuttgart Germany, where I grew up I see a lot of bike lanes but I feel just as unsafe on those as on regular bike lanes here in the US. Everything in Germany is so damn narrow that close calls are not a daily but hourly occurrence.

The big difference: outside of urban centers Europe has a lot of paved paths between towns, that's something that spotty in even bike-friendly Oregon.

throw9away6 · 3 years ago
It was but the Portland went feral and became a lawless city.
CalRobert · 3 years ago
Dutch American friendship treaty is worth a look
ftxbro · 3 years ago
> In America, a bicyclist is usually not envisioned as being on par with someone who drives a car. They are stereotyped as either a rich hobbyist in spandex or as drunks who lost their driver’s license and have to rely on a lesser form of transport.

So they acknowledge this but expect it to change somehow?

mcmcmc · 3 years ago
That stereotype might exist in some places or in some crowds, but it's far from a universally held belief. And it's definitely not true.
etrautmann · 3 years ago
Yeah this does not ring true anywhere I’ve lived (mostly coastal cities)
jmclnx · 3 years ago
I live in one of those cities, and yes that is the stereotype, with one addition, Bicycles are only really for kids to ride in parks or on the sidewalk.
Tiktaalik · 3 years ago
> In 2018 alone, a bicyclist was killed approximately every third day in the greater Chicago area.

Completely insane horrifying stat. The incredible amount of injury and death has been so normalized.

Retric · 3 years ago
That’s one of those comparisons where the goal is to underestimate the greater Chicago area’s population, but it’s not even an accurate statistic.

From 2005 to 2016 Chicago with a population of 2.7 million had between 3 and 8 cycles deaths per year vs 27 to 65 pedestrian deaths and 282 to 487 motorists. https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20... Edit: The closest to 1/3 days I could find was 13 bicycle deaths and 95 pedestrian fatalities totaling to 108 for the region. Which is 1 cyclist death per 28 days out of ~10 million people.

woodruffw · 3 years ago
Chicago's metropolitan area has around 10 million people in it. Are you saying that a cyclist killed every third day with that kind of population is considered an acceptable loss?

Edit: for context, NYC alone has a comparable population (versus the entire Chicago MSA) and, despite rising cyclist deaths, still has significantly fewer than ~120 a year[1].

Edit: TFA's source for cycling deaths appears to be incorrect; the actual rate is far below ~120/year. The ~120/year number appears to come from a misreading of total pedestrian and cycling deaths in this report[2].

[1]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/08/07/cyclist-deaths-are-su...

[2]: https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20...

Tiktaalik · 3 years ago
lol look at the active normalization going on even here in this thread!
pengaru · 3 years ago
The streets of the greater Chicago area are full of frustrated drivers in a pointless pissing contest seemingly all on the fringe of a road-rage incident. It's like they're all fighting over scraps and the roads are the arena.

I could write a short novel describing my childhood bmx experiences there through the 80s-90s, and in 2022 I rode an mtb around all summer during an extended visit.

It's just insanity. People there are miserable and angry. It's palpable in how they drive.

norir · 3 years ago
Yes, the missing part of all the transportation debate is how existing driving conditions in many areas make motorists miserable even in the absence of cyclists. There are many people who are driving teetering on the edge of explosive rage (or already well beyond it). Their aggressive behavior spreads out and infects others. All road users are affected. Indeed it is actually likely other motorists who numerically suffer the most from this undercurrent of rage. Motorists just happen to be less vulnerable than cyclists and pedestrians so they don't have the same level of terror that these drivers can evoke in the more vulnerable road users.

Unfortunately I don't think these problems can be solved with improved bike infrastructure in most cities (though I'm not opposed to it). I think it has more to do with the continual strain of long commutes and the horrible frustration of driving in traffic. Unless we build a world in which driving long distances is truly optional for the vast majority of citizens, road rage is likely to be pervasive and we will all suffer the consequences.

marcinzm · 3 years ago
Also a completely false stat. The link goes to a site that links to this:

https://activetrans.org/sites/files/crash%20report%202018%20...

It among other fun things only goes up to 2016 and was published in mid 2018 (thus could not cover 2018). It also says that only 18 bicyclists were killed in 2016.

basisword · 3 years ago
There are 2-3 fatalities in cars per day in Chicago from what I can see. Both are useless stats without more context. A good comparison might be another city. For example there are approx < 10 cycling deaths per year in London which has decent cycling infrastructure these days.
taeric · 3 years ago
Agreed. Is the kind of stat I think I reflexively refuse to believe at face value. :( How did things get that bad?
Retric · 3 years ago
They didn’t someone misread a report, which then got passed around. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312626

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korse · 3 years ago
Yes, they do... but

As a commuter cyclist and former member of the 'bicycle industry', I'm going to propose an alternate view. Call this the 'libertarian theory of bike commuting' perhaps.

I love the bicycle situation in the United States. Why? Because freedom.

With increased investment in bicycle infrastructure comes increasing oversight and enforcement. This is something I cannot abide. I love riding a bicycle because I can, with reasonable caution and situational awareness, ride anywhere I choose (almost entirely) unburdened by bureaucratic annoyances such as speed cameras, parking garage gates, signals, signage, pedestrian areas, traffic and lurking police officers.

Appreciate what you have, or else we're all going to have to start wearing running clothes and doing shenanigans like joggers... because you know a properly attired and sweating jogger is ultimate stealth mode. It is just slow and makes you smell even worse + carrying cargo sort of breaks the facade.

Keep the USA weird.