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Posted by u/proberts 2 years ago
I'm Peter Roberts, immigration attorney who does work for YC and startups. AMA
Hello HN! It's been about 9 months since we've done one of these and it seems like time for another. Previous threads we've done: https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=proberts.

I'll be here for the next 2-3 hours and then after a break of about 1 hour for another 2-3 hours. As usual, there are many possible topics and I'll be guided by whatever you're concerned with. Please remember that I can't provide legal advice on specific cases for obvious liability reasons because I won't have access to all the facts. Please stick to a factual discussion in your questions and comments and I'll try to do the same in my answers!

Gunnerhead · 2 years ago
In June 2021 I tried entering the United States with a TN packet as an Engineer with a Bachelor of Computer Science. However, the officer denied me the TN status saying I need an Engineering, not Computer Science degree, to qualify for the Engineer TN status.

Given the denial, in July 2021 the hiring company then applied through USCIS premium processing again for TN Engineer with my Computer Science degree and I was approved. I was let in at the border with my TN status without issue.

In August 2021, I we back to Canada, and then upon re-entering the US with my TN I was sent to secondary given my previous denial on record. The officers basically rechecked my packet and asked so many questions about my previous denial, the officer then lets me in but states “you might not be so lucky with the next officer”. From what I understand they can take away my TN or even just deny me entry in the future based off the previous denial.

I haven’t left the US since then, but want to visit Canada and come back. However, I’m terrified of the officer denying me entry based of my previous denial. What are my options here? My company’s lawyer basically said we just have to try and hope for the best.

Thanks so much!

proberts · 2 years ago
I know. This is really stunning but true. CBP officers have the right to review the admissibility of TN applicants any time even if they have a TN approval notice. But there's a solution of sorts. Please email me separately because this will be very case-specific advice.
ashconnor · 2 years ago
Also on TN status with a Computer Science degree. It appears to be luck-of-the-draw with the CBP officers. I also have two Software Engineering modules and my program was under the Faculty of Engineer which helps.

I initially applied for L1B at Peace Bridge and was told that I needed to show the company I worked for was profitable (not true).

We drove to Detroit-Windsor from Fort Erie as they told us there were no appointments until three weeks out (you don’t actually need an appointment I found out later).

In Detroit I was denied my L1B because “the last year you worked abroad cannot count towards your acquisition of specialized knowledge” (also false).

My opinion of CBP is you need to get the right one or have your lawyer on speed-dial so they can argue with the officer.

Getting status at the border used to be seen as a pro for Canadians but more and more I’m seeing it as a con.

Maciek416 · 2 years ago
Much like the other commenter, I learned to never ever do any of this stuff (ordinary travel or renewals) via land crossings. You can have a major trajectory change to your life on the whims of a border guard who is just having a bad day even if all of your ducks are lined up and perfectly documented by a large multinational. Bend over backwards to avoid land crossings until you can secure yourself a greencard.
arcticbull · 2 years ago
It doesn't really matter which crossing, IME, you may always encounter a power-tripping officer, and officers at each kind of entry port have the same power. I've been waved through no questions asked at land crossings, pulled into secondary and interviewed by 6 officers in pairs of 2 at an air crossing - and vice versa. Ultimately, admission is at the discretion of the officers unless you're a citizen. Even a green card holder can be denied re-entry on the basis that they 'abandoned their residency.'
pyuser583 · 2 years ago
I know people who didn’t go to their parent’s funeral because they didn’t know if they could get back in the country.

People who had every right to enter the country.

Don’t leave the US unless you absolutely must.

On the plus side, America as one of places for great vacations.

joshvm · 2 years ago
One option is to apply for Global Entry/NEXUS for Canada. You will have a single potentially miserable interview with a CBP officer who might bring your denial up because I'm sure they ask if you've been refused entry before. But if they're happy, you can enter the border without speaking to any agents (or a significantly reduced chance). Once cleared, on arrival, they snap a picture of your face at a kiosk and wave you through on an iPad (no passport involved). It works out to around 20 dollars a year plus your home country's admin fee.

This doesn't solve your problem entirely but if you're legally allowed to be in the US then there's nothing underhand about taking advantage of the program.

I think NEXUS might be easier, but when I did this as a European the border agent didn't really know what to do and was very grumpy that I didn't provide a US address to send my card which I was told by a different airport I didn't need. Once that was sorted, I haven't had any trouble since and it usually eliminates queueing at the border.

If you're physically in the US, do it at an airport if you can get an appointment - they tend to be much more relaxed than the border guards.

ashconnor · 2 years ago
I was going to suggest this but I don't think it would prevent being pulled into secondary.

Also, make sure you tell them you are on TN status or they will happily wave you through on B1 which you won't know until you download your updated I94.

bonestamp2 · 2 years ago
> However, the officer denied me the TN status saying I need an Engineering, not Computer Science degree, to qualify for the Engineer TN status.

My wife had a similar thing happen (not a TN visa though). The immigration lawyers got to work and she was allowed to try again a couple weeks later. This time the officer agreed with the assessment that she was qualified for that visa type. The original officer had a very narrow perspective on how a certain job title was defined that was not inline with how most companies operate.

If your company has a Canadian office, the lawyers could try getting you on an L visa. Or there's an E visa. Once you're on one of those visas then your company can sponsor a green card. Green cards are much more stable and they're easier to renew. Then citizenship if you want to go that far.

Maciek416 · 2 years ago
I am not a lawyer. The transition from TN->GC is possible too under the right (narrow) circumstances. The big tradeoff is not risking travel while within the lifecycle of one TN term, and likely not being able to straddle a GC application across the boundaries of a TN renewal period at all. For some countries of birth, a TN term is not long enough to get through the GC pipeline. But for Canadians born in Canada, ones who have family willing to visit them instead of the other way around, it may be doable. Or for folks born in other countries which have no GC backlog or a short one. YMMV, but I have personally seen someone go L2->TN->GC. An unusual sequence but necessary given the particulars of that case.
sacnoradhq · 2 years ago
(CS/EE here who I guess won the womb lottery by being born in the States.) Holy crap, that's absurd and ill-informed on their part. There should be standards on the which accreditation of degrees to accept, not an exhaustive, under-maintained/-reviewed list of specific majors from specific institutions.

The US can only stay competitive by making it easy enough for global talent to want to come here and want to stay. In the past ~15 years, the US has really lost its edge on being the melting pot and welcoming immigrants in a nation built and populated by immigrants (except for native peoples).

PS: Not all CS/engineering degrees are created equal. There are some US institutions where their Computer Science (CS) Bachelor's degree is not accredited by a professional society while the Electrical Engineering (EE), Computer Engineering, etc. are. I switched majors to earn one that was ABET accredited. For new international students, it's vital to check the International Mutual Recognition Agreement (IMRA) for their degree to be sure it's widely recognized by the rest of the world. The cliche is a Russian physicist who ends up teaching US high school biology because of trouble with degree portability.

https://amspub.abet.org/aps/name-search?searchType=program&k...

djmips · 2 years ago
My advice is to do the renewal without having to go to the border to face capricious judgements by under trained by all powerful border staff. It is possible to do the renewal early and via mail at a main immigration office. Now this information could be dated and please seek the advice of Mr. Roberts for current methods.
pj_mukh · 2 years ago
This happened to me too. Mind-boggling dumb. Had to switch out of TN (E2 in my case) for it to stop happening.

Still spent 3 years going to secondary, “just because”.

proberts · 2 years ago
I'm sorry that I'm coming in late to this but for certain TN occupations, the outcome has less to do with the applicant's qualifications or the offered job and more to do with where the applicant applies. There are some airports and land crossings that are very good, that is, reasonable and fair.
anorwell · 2 years ago
As a CS degree holder, I got two TN visas, both as a Computer Systems Analyst. This was ~10 years ago. I'm curious if something has changed to make Computer Systems Analyst positions or applications less frequent.
lannisterstark · 2 years ago
Cbp officers are sometimes.... dumbasses.

One told me I had to get a Mexican visa if I were to come back since I was visiting so often. Mexican visa. To enter the United States.

Dead Comment

Herdinger · 2 years ago
Hi I am not really asking for specific advice (since I know our situation is already not working out to nice…), I just want to highlight how absurd the state of affair is and maybe get some input on that.

My wife is a US citizen and we currently both live in Germany and planed to move at the and of this year. We’ve filed a I130 in November last year and got an initial estimate of it being done right now (7 Months not to bad). But looking further into it it takes at least 15 Months to process this stage of immigration, worst case scenario it could’ve been 50 months (4 year!!!)

This wouldn’t all be to bad but to add insult to injury it looks like I’m effectively barred from entering the US during this period and US customs can even bar me for 5 years from entering the country if I try.

I just feel incredibly sad about the fact that the way to go if you have a sweetheart in the US seems to be to illegally marry on a Tourist entry into the country…

The earliest the US would even respond to our inquiries is in 2024, which is frankly ridiculous.

There doesn’t seem to be any workarounds other than transferring on an L1 Visa between companies that are situated in Germany and the US, every other visa is single intend (i.e illegal if you plan to stay and the US gets to decided if you’re trying to do that)

I don’t understand what the US is scared of, taking their social benefits? Especially since 90% of the I130 are approved, there is no reason it takes that long or needs such rigorous vetting.

Peter if you know any better or disagree please let me know :(

proberts · 2 years ago
Unfortunately I've seen these terrible delays with our own clients and there's little that can be done other than what you suggest: get to the U.S. on some type of work visa and then pursue the green card when here, which is a very fast process. But one correction: you are allowed to travel to the U.S. as a visitor while your green card application is pending; you just need to maintain a home abroad and not work when here. We've had spouses in the same situation spend months and months in the U.S. while waiting for the green card process to run its course.
Herdinger · 2 years ago
Thanks for the quick response, I agree if it would be that easy, sadly I’ve had friends that were turned away by customs for that exact reasons (staying months while they visited last time) and got recommended against even trying to enter by an attorney since the I130 in flight might be used by US customs against me.

I don’t think you or anyone can assure me that if I am currently trying to enter the country for a visit I might not be turned away by customs (worst case scenario being barred from entering for years).

I don’t know how you can plan your existence around random chance of US customs.

Please correct me if I’m wrong with that assessment.

To come highlight again, this has been a huge surprise to my wife’s family who resides on both sides of the political aisle.

They assumed it would be bad, but not quite how bad.

throwaway9971 · 2 years ago
I am in similar situation, except wife is in India with younger kid and I am in US with elder kid in university. I am told there is a good chance she will be denied tourist visa even if not yet applied to GC, as rest of us are US citizens. And she will be denied tourist visa after applying for GC.
lanice · 2 years ago
Not advice, just some words of encouragement: I am in a very similar situation (German citizen, US citizen spouse), and we started our I130 petition at the end of August last year. We got the approval notice (for the I130) literally this week.

So with your November filing, I think it would not be unreasonable to expect an update within the next 3 months or so. And from there on it should go fairly fast, probably just 1-3 months from an approved I130 to a GC.

Good luck!

proberts · 2 years ago
Good guidance. That's what we're seeing as well with marriage-based immigrant visa applications, about 9-12 months for the I-130 to be approved and then, depending the consulate, about 1-4 months to get the immigrant visa.
shytey · 2 years ago
Can I grant myself a visa with my own LLC? I co-own and run it remotely, it's making 600k profit from 4mil revenue. It's based in the US, I'm from Ireland, living in the UK. It hasn't taken investment but we reinvest a lot of revenue in growth.
hashim · 2 years ago
How did you base it in the US? Stripe Atlas, or something more custom?
proberts · 2 years ago
I would recommend looking at the O-1 and the E-2. The EB5 is a green card category that takes a while now and could impact your travel to the U.S. in the interim.
az226 · 2 years ago
Just go the EB5 route.
jxf · 2 years ago
I'm a US citizen, but just wanted to say thank you for your work in helping others immigrate to the US. Our system is both complex and complicated, and the legal and administrative staff who help immigrants and prospective immigrants navigate it are doing difficult but necessary work.
proberts · 2 years ago
Thanks. It's nice work since we get to work with so many talented and interesting people.
simonbarker87 · 2 years ago
UK couple, both have engineering PhDs and 10+ years experience in engineering (dev and automotive), not rich but not poor. Is there a sensible path to US immigration that doesn’t leave them in the H1B bind or always on the verge of being deported?
bonestamp2 · 2 years ago
In case Peter doesn't answer, my personal experience has been that you'll want a more stable work visa than an H1. Given your skills, one of you should be able to get one (and the other can come as a spouse and apply for a work permit with the right visa type). After a few years with that, you can apply for a green card (permanent resident status). I know people who have renewed those for decades without becoming citizens. Or, after a few years with the green card, you can apply for citizenship.

I know lots of Brits and Canadians in California who have also followed this path.

A lot of talk in here about H1B visas, and that's probably because they're the most plentiful. But, that's not the only type of visa that people should be thinking about.

proberts · 2 years ago
Thanks for the response. Yes, there are other options that aren't subject to the crazy and uncertain H-1B lottery such as the O-1 visa (which, without knowing more, you both probably would qualify for). And while the O-1 is tied to a company, this can be your company. A lot of founders in the U.S. are on O-1s. There is also the intra-company transferee visa (if you are transferring to a related company in the U.S.) and the E-2 visa if you are looking to start a company in the U.S. based on a substantial investment.
rcme · 2 years ago
You could find a US company with an office in the UK that will let you work there for a year before brining you to the US on an L1. You could also apply for an O1 if you’ve published a lot.
giobox · 2 years ago
The L1 can be worse than the H1 bind in some ways - has effectively all of the same rules, with the primary and critical exception you cannot change employer in the US. On the L1, your Green Card is much more at the mercy of how nice your employer is, as you won't be able to change job if they start slow-walking it etc. The trade off is not being subject to the H1 cap of course.

You can also try to convince your employer to keep applying for an H1 for you while you are working on an L1 - if they agree that's usually a good sign the employer is going to work hard to complete your GC process, and isn't just using the L1 status to handcuff you to the company.

bubblethink · 2 years ago
The most straightforward approach in your case would be an EB2-NIW green card application assuming you were born in the UK. It basically amounts to showing that you are doing something demonstrably useful to the US (e.g., papers, grants, awards, citations, the usual). You can do it yourself on the cheap for 2-3k in USCIS fees including premium processing, or add another 5-10k for lawyer fees if you go through a lawyer. The only issue with this strategy is that consular processing from outside the US can take up to a year or more. Google/Youtube for EB2-NIW, you'll find plenty of resources.
pyuser583 · 2 years ago
May I ask why? I’m considering moving to the UK.
simonbarker87 · 2 years ago
Mainly for the weather, also the UK is on a downward trend as a place to live at the moment. It’s by no means a bad place to be but it the trend isn’t up.

Sky high property prices across the country compared to wages (not just on the coast or in London, everywhere).

Low salaries and high cost of living compared to equally developed countries.

Chronically underfunded public services but ever increasing taxation.

It rains a lot and the weather miserable, this is the biggest one for us personally.

PettingRabbits · 2 years ago
How would somebody that qualifies as a TN NAFTA Professional (e.g. Canadian applying for engineering job with relevant engineering degree) answer the question of "Are you authorized to work in the US?", particularly with regards to sponsorship? As I understand it, the question is to determine if the employer needs to apply for a visa, (H-1B, etc) but according to USCIS all the employer has to do for TN is provide a letter outlining the job, employee qualifications, etc. Is this considered sponsorship?
proberts · 2 years ago
The TN is company-specific so if you are applying for a new job, even if you have a TN with one company, you would need a new TN and even though the TN process is generally simple and easy, it qualifies as sponsorship.
PettingRabbits · 2 years ago
>it qualifies as sponsorship.

Rats. It's gonna be tough to make it past the first screening round with a No answer. Oh well, fingers crossed some good referral action can help. Thanks for the insight.

namank · 2 years ago
Peter, you are a good attorney and your services are on point. But man you take forever to reply to emails. Our processing time changed while waiting for your response.

Do you have plans to scale up your operation? Or maybe you can recommend other immigration lawyers? You can charge referral fees while you scale up your process.

proberts · 2 years ago
I've recently merged my firm with Ogletree Deakins which has over 150 immigration attorneys and over 500 immigration paralegals and support staff so we're well-staffed now.
astromeson · 2 years ago
I am very interested in developing a tech career in the US. I have roughly 5 years of industrial experience and my bachelor degree is in physics.

I am currently working as a software engineer in the UK (I'm from Hong Kong) for the past 2 years and am actively considering the following:

1. Getting a Masters degree in US then work in US with STEM OPT and apply for Green Card through employer; or

2. Moving to Canada, become a citizen in 3.5 - 4 years then apply for TN status and work in US, then try to find a good timing for Green Card application

If my intent is to settle in the US, which route would you recommend me to go through?

Thank you so much for your time!

Maciek416 · 2 years ago
I am not an immigration lawyer. Something you should be aware of is that when applying for a green card, your status as a Canadian (whether permanent resident or citizen) or as a Brit (ditto) is completely irrelevant. The green card process sees your application solely through the lens of your birth country. The GC backlog for Chinese-born people is very lengthy. So lengthy that it tests the longevity of a visa or a set of visas -- it's not a marathon you want to still be running 15 to 20 years from now.

For that reason, if your goal is ultimately the US, focus on the US, because you will otherwise be adding _many_ years to the process.

One very notable asterisk to the above: If, while applying for a GC, your spouse is from a no-backlog country (born in Canada, UK, or other no-backlog countries), then your application can essentially adopt that country as the birth country, and you can get through the GC process in a relatively short time (all other things equal).

From your perspective "good timing for a green card application" is ASA-F'ing-P.

what_ever · 2 years ago
Is Hong Kong (where GP is from) treated separately from the mainland China for GC country of birth purpose?
asdadsdad · 2 years ago
(short time is 2 years for no-backlog)