If you want a free mindfulness app you should consider searching for the one developed by the US Department of Veteran Affairs on your platform's app store. It usually ranks very low on the list because not many people know about it and because all the other apps market themselves heavily.
Unlike all the garbage apps which ask you for subscriptions and DLCs just to play 10 minutes of audio, every single thing is free and freely downloadable. It also has customization options, a journal, a very simple and rational interface and a small corpus of advice.
I'm not sure how useful this app is. Scanning the comments down-thread, the people preaching mindfulness seem to struggle to practice it. I thought the whole point was to help a person be self-aware, but I see resentment and rage bubbling up unfiltered.
Am I the only one who thinks meditation with an app is super hilariously weird? Its hard to explain without falling for too much cynism, but... the topic is mindfulness, not "have my phone tell me what to do next". If you are unable to mediate without the help of an app, start here, instead of pretending you are meditating just because some app tells you every step along the way.
> Am I the only one who thinks meditation with an app is super hilariously weird?
Yes.
> have my phone tell me what to do next"
The phone is a tool. It doesn't tell me what to do.
> you are unable to mediate without the help of an app, start here, instead of pretending you are meditating just because some app tells you every step along the way.
Mindfulness and Buddhism is traditionally practiced in a teacher-student setting. Are they all pretending to meditate because they have a teacher telling them what to do every step of the way?
Your entire comment reeks of utter mindlessness. Maybe an app would help?
It's not any weirder than any other exercise app. It keeps you on track and reminds you what you're supposed to do. (Which isn't exactly "just sit there." You can do it wrong.)
You can even get an EEG reader for biofeedback meditation like Muse. Works well as long as you stay away from the Deepak Chopra stuff.
I've done vipassana retreats where they play audio files from Goenka's instructions. You can do the same with a phone.
I've used analogue timers to determine when to get up from my session. Please explain the difference between an analogue timer and a digital one, for this purpose.
Also free and relevant - a link to WHO's guide for "unhooking from difficult thoughts and feelings". There's audio you can download. It's not even an app.
I find meditation, mindfulness on the one hand and apps, smartphones, and technology, on the other, to be a grotesque contradiction in terms. Obviously I know this is not a widespread opinion.
Mindfulness meditation is not merely a feel-good exercise or some mystical ritual. It's a practice that allows us to regularly enter a state of mind where we're not consumed by our incessant thoughts, which are constantly evaluating, reflecting on the past, or worrying about the future. This mental chatter is often the root cause of much of our stress.
Many people rarely experience a state of mind where they are fully present in the moment, where the past and future are irrelevant, and only the immediate moment matters. Some may have experienced this while watching a sunrise or after a moment of joyous exertion. However, through the practice of mindfulness meditation, one can intentionally enter this state of mind, which can be profoundly healing.
Mindfulness meditation is not goal-oriented. It's not practiced with the intention of achieving peace of mind or eliminating stress. The desire for things to be different, for wanting to be "there" instead of "here," is the modus operandi of our thinking mind. Mindfulness meditation allows us to enter a different state of mind, an observing mind that perceives things as they are. It observes the thinking mind and realizes that we are not our thoughts, or our thinking mind. We are much more than that, a meta-mind.
This concept may be challenging for many participants on this forum to accept, as they are entrenched in an outcome and achievement-focused mindset. They may have never experienced a mindful moment, and therefore dismiss it as nonsense.
It's nonsensical to "evaluate" mindfulness meditation in terms of results to be achieved.
Mindfulness meditation is not about striving for specific outcomes, but rather about embracing a set of practices that cultivate acceptance. It's about acknowledging and accepting our thoughts, feelings, and experiences without judgment. It's about observing reality as it unfolds, moment by moment, and embracing it in its entirety, with all its complexities and contradictions.
This practice encourages us to regularly connect with the present moment, to truly experience the 'now' rather than getting lost in the past or the future. It's about letting go of our preconceived notions, our biases, and our incessant need to control. It's about surrendering to the flow of life, allowing things to be as they are, and finding peace in that acceptance.
Cioran, in effect: The blank time of meditation is, in truth, the only "full" time. We should never blush to accumulate vacant moments—vacant in appearance, filled in fact. To meditate is a supreme leisure, whose secret has been lost.
Mindfulness took one small technique out of the Buddhist system that feels rational & scientific.
It kind of works. But the corpus of Buddhism is what makes it powerful. And this is hard to make palatable for the West.
The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy.
Very important aspects of Buddhism that make the whole much more powerful are:
- Living & acting out of compassion (boddhicitta): if your main focus is other not yourself, a huge relief of worries is gone, and meaning arises naturally.
- Accepting change. There are 2 ways to see change: "nothing matters" or "no need to worry, just relax". Buddhist meditation is geared to getting you to the positive kind.
- Understanding emptiness (or space) as the nature of all experiences, both rationally but in the end resting in this experience in meditation means dissolving into everything and experiencing deep bliss.
And of course the power devotion & social aspects of all religion can not be overlooked, good & bad.
My teachings are from Tibetan kind, which is more mystical & compassionate oriented then the southern countries which are more focus on self-actualization (they teach the Vispasanna retreats)
You seem very fond of making huge generalizations about people based on their country of origin.
The "western way" is only (strictly) in opposition to Buddhism in the narrative you are subscribing to. The reality is that many Americans are acutely aware of just how toxic aspects of mainstream American culture. It is probably best to approach debate from this point of view, particularly if you want to convince people rather than simply pissing them off.
If someone says Buddhism is not for them - drop it. You don't understand their problems better than they do and your religion - like all religions - requires an irrational leap of faith whether you like it or not. This is off putting to a lot of people who favor rationality - particularly those who are so fed up with the aforementioned mainstream culture I describe (but don't subscribe to your religion).
Just to clarify again, my contention is not that you're arguing incorrectly per se. It is that you are being overconfident and righteous, which appears smug and indicates you aren't _really_ looking to empathize with contradicting points of view. It's rude. If I came up to you and told you about how Jesus was going to change your life, smiling the whole time and speaking only of the positives you might feel similarly? I don't know.
There are a couple of categories, and let's apply it to Mindfulness according to TFA.
1) People who don't actually know what Mindfulness is, other than secondhand sources, word of mouth, etc.
2) People who've tried Mindfulness, and they know a little more than (1) due to direct experience, and possibly a minister who guided them.
3) People who were born into a family whose members fervently pratices Mindfulness, teach Mindfulness to others, and promote it in public.
Now let's see why people hate Mindfulness or say it's not for them.
(1) may say that it sounds weird or foreign, it can't be efficacious, it's too abstract, because they don't know what it's about.
(2) may say that it was hard to concentrate, they kept getting distracted, the classes were expensive, they traveled too far, they didn't feel it working fast enough, it was boring, too spiritual / not spiritual enough.
(3) perhaps their family life was bad, they were neglected or abused, their family members seemed to care more about Mindfulness than this person, and being that "Family" and "Mindfulness" are inextricably linked in their mind, they must reject Mindfulness because it's tarnished by the behavior of its adherents.
So I'd say, don't attack someone who is acting as an evangelist for something, because perhaps they act in good faith. Particularly in HN, this thread is optional for you and me, and so if you feel like it's proseltyzing, just flag it and move on, don't attack a guy because he believes that Emacs and Lisp are the best apps to install on your Linux machine.
There are the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama and there is the religion Buddhism created by his followers. He said: This is my truth, see for yourself if it is true for you too. This is the reason i take him seriously, in contrast to the monotheistic myths that all claim to have the only truth.
> Understanding emptiness
The other points are valid to me, this one belongs in the realm of metaphysics for me.
Buddha said a lot of good things IMHO, but very questionable stuff too. "Monasteries are allowed to own slaves, individual monks not." for example. If you mention that, Buddhists get uneasy and/or defensive.
There is a nice App called Buddha Quotes on F-Droid. I recommend to install it via Foxy Droid:
The metaphysical view of Buddhism is definitely different from Western view.I think both lack empirical evidence, because both are very hard to prove.
But also emptiness as a meditative state (Samatha) can be experienced. Whether or not you end up believing it's the essence of reality, you can experience it as the essence of your experience through meditation.
There are many books, but in the end this can't be thought in a book. Bodhipath is probably a good place, they also have lots of online things to read: https://bodhipath.org/.
It's more focused on the compassion part. The mystical is something which is easy to find online, but hard to find someone with the experience.
But there are different schools, more focused on study, mediation etc. Some are more formal, others informal.
1) Words of My Perfect Teacher: A Complete Translation of a Classic Introduction to Tibetan Buddhism by Patrul Rinpoche translated by Padmakara Translation Group.
2) Essential Mind Training: Tibetan Wisdom for Daily Life translated by Thupten Jinpa.
> Living & acting out of compassion (boddhicitta): if your main focus is other not yourself, a huge relief of worries is gone, and meaning arises naturally. Of course here articial part.
You'll easily become a victim of people who exploit "caretakers". You'll become an unpaid servant. People need to look after themselves first.
This is Western attitude right down to the implication that you have some sort of insight that invalidates what the parent is saying.
A society of people acting as isolated islands because they all think that they’re out to get eachother is how society crumbles.
You can put others first with boundaries. You can put others first and remain vigilant. The “look after yourself first”. It’s all a false dichotomy, and the basis for an attitude that especially on this website tends to just be privileged tech workers justifying their own ambivalence toward one ethical issue or another.
This is an overly paranoid response to someone suggesting to have compassion for others as a form of self-care. The idea is that worrying exessively about yourself can be harmful in itself, not "allow yourself to be exploited".
This is a somewhat cynical attitude that assumes compassion must come conjoined with suspension of good judgement. I'm a naturally analytical and anxious individual who has, as of late, found a measure of stress relief by directing some of my mental energy toward the wellbeing of others. Beyond basic necessities and financial security, obsessing over your own wellbeing/financials can be its own torture. Sometimes, something as simple as feeding a stray dog or buying someone meds can relieve stress. Interestingly, writing checks or transferring funds online, does not have the same effect.
Buddhism is meant to tailor teachings in accordance with sentient beings' cravings and faculty so there's no right or wrong methods. You can mediate, count breath, contemplate about emptiness or chant the pure land sutras. It doesn't matter as long as there's practice under proper guidance.
Not necessarily. You can be compasionate to a narcicist manipulator while being perfectly aware that he is trying to manipulate you and not playing hus game. Being compasionate does not means doing everything someone asks for, but trying to understand where they come from, see their actions as their (likely unskillfull) attempt at avoiding discomfort/suffering (dukkha), and orient your actions based on that understanding.
There is a systematic effort to plagiarize from Indian traditions and then claim them to be rediscoveries of the West, inline with historical racist-supremacist constructions. You can see this historically across Mathematics, Astronomy and Medicine in very concrete terms. That they're now doing it with Yoga, Vipassana, Ayurveda etc. is quite disappointing.
Andrew Huberman at Stanford has an entire lab (and a very popular podcast) designed to rip off Indian traditions to the point where news-releases will neither mention the ripped off name, nor even mention India. The Americans will at-best mention 'South Asia' as if Pakistan/Bangladesh, who are actively genociding followers of India's native faiths, were creators of this.
They've also tried patenting Basmati and Turmeric and many other things. It's amusing to see 'alt-right' geniuses sell things like Ashwagandha/Turmeric and other Ayurvedic nutraceuticals to their 'Murcan audiences' while hating on Hindus as 'satan worshippers who are destroying US'.
On a more important note: this raises a big point. Modern 'Western culture' is not universal, but is in fact very much Christian and with that, has inherited its extremely deep-rooted and vicious irrational hate for so-called 'devil worshipping pagans'.
Western academics will never talk about cultures they've marked for destruction either. Very much like the Anglo-media almost never lets out the real reason for why they are going for war on random far-off countries (it's not 'democracy and freedom').
I moved out of the US when I realized all this and today generally avoid US/Europe, both for business and travel.
> There is a systematic effort to plagiarize from Indian traditions and then claim them to be rediscoveries of the West
That's just inverting Tibetan Buddhism; if you wanted anyone to believe in something you invented there, you had to claim it was old and from India.
Old and from Tibet was okay sometimes, but only if you claimed your ancestor's spirits dictated it to you or pointed you to the ancient rock it was buried under. (these are called air and earth termas)
Breathing practices objectively have an effect on our body and nobody can counter this.
Buddhist ideology on the other hand is up to debate and everyone is free to try it or believe it.
Maybe in your experience meditation is enhanced by believing all that stuff, but that is your prerogative. I can do mindfulness and go to a psychologist instead of doing meditation and going to a temple because maybe that oriental stuff feels too alien and doesn't seem right to me.
The other practices also have an effect on your body and mind, you just don't bother verifying it for yourself because you want an external authority to do it for you first.
You don't need to buy into the esoteric teachings, or even the core belief of reincarnation. But you don't have to reject them either. Just inform yourself on the basics and keep them in mind. "If this bit was true, what would the world be like? How would my actions impact the world? How would they impact my future self?"
In the end the whole point is reducing suffering, and the longer you wait for someone else to verify one claim or another, the longer you're going to be bound to your habitual suffering.
The irony here is that hardcore Buddhism does debate the benefits of breathing. Nirvana is not something to be shunned. Not necessarily lusted for either. The correct attitude is ... up for debate.
Walking or exercise also have that effect, similar to mindfulness, if that's your goal.
Therapy in itself has limited scientific backing (specific types for specific diagnosis often do). But it feels rational.
However the main point is:
Buddhism, and all religions, focus on why you do what you do.
The Western Way is confusing, partially career & material, bit of humanism, etc. Now that's fine. You can figure it out in this system and some people do. But there is no clear road. There is freedom in that, but it comes with a huge amount of anxiousness & confusion.
The western reason for doing things: focusing on getting external circumstances in order (friends, career, house, family) will cause a huge amount of anxiety. Buddhism, and perhaps also Christianity, give non-personal teachings to elevate your focus to a point where it's less about what you do & who you are.
You don't have to believe me and can wait for science to figure this out. But seeing the rise of anxiety, depression & pill usage, I don't have much confidence in the current understanding of the Western world in mental health.
Mindfulness meditation may reduce stress levels, but only temporary. Instead of focusing on the source of stress and trying to solve the underlying issues, it fights the symptoms.
I don't say that it doesn't "work", but one should be aware of the limitation of mindfulness practices, and look at it just as one of the tools in a tool set to fight stress, not as a holy grail, like many of its proponents preach.
User counters 13000 word meta study by simply stating the opposite without giving any arguments, sources or studies.
Is there a forum like Hacker News, but with no "talking out of your ass"?
How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this?
The thought "Is it a long term effect or just temporary?" is totally fine. But then just posting out of your ass does not help anyobody. A quick search for "months" in the meta study shows that they looked at effects during the 6 months after the intervention.
So I think many people together could come up with an interesting discussion. But it would mean everybody has to do some work.
He gave details but you provided no rebuttal of his rebuttal. I would agree with him in the sense that just neutral observation often fixes the problem, but often can be a form of spiritually bypassing your problems. For example, if we're anxious from a lack of income, but all we do is neutrally observe, that's not solving the root problem.
Meta studies study individual papers which in turn are essentially asking people if they feel happier if they do X. Anecdotally.
This particular one does a lot of math which no one has the patience to verify. It just sounds smart, like the papers on nature.com that advertise probiotics.
If you trick yourself into being happy while being exploited by the system it may indeed work (that's why rulers liked Christianity as a tool for pacifying the masses). But you are not solving the underlying issues.
>How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this?
Well, the way you achieve a forum where nobody talks out of your ass is by making a forum without a submit button.
However I agree, it's absurd the level of quackery that takes over HN in these circumstances, as if one SV weirdo's magic mushroom trip invalidates decades of genuine research on what makes people stressed and the ways to mitigate that stress.
Nope, apparently we are just all following the wrong religion!
> How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this?
I’ve seen the best results with niche email lists that actively moderate the discussion quality. But the results are mixed and I eventually decided that it’s a lost cause. People who don’t bring anything to the table tend to have more time on their hands to post nonsense.
> User counters 13000 word meta study by simply stating the opposite without giving any arguments, sources or studies.
I am giving my opinion on a random forum, not writing a study about mindfulness. I didn't even say anything controversial, a glance at the wikipedia page would list a bunch of criticism.
> Is there a forum like Hacker News, but with no "talking out of your ass"?
> How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this?
For example, you could try not to be an asshole and not to "talk out of your ass". Be a change you want to see.
Btw, in your case, a mindfulness practice could actually help. Instead of pretending to be an angry internet gestapo, you can try some basic breathing practices for a few minutes.
A lot of times, you simply can't solve the source of stress or it takes a lot of time before you're able to. How do I solve having cancer or any other health issue? Like most things in life, it's not something that's solvable overnight. Why not reduce the emotional/psychological suffering you feel before you can actually solve the problem? In fact, that reduction in emotional distress can help you find better solutions to whatever problems you're dealing with. I don't see any downsides unless for some reason you think meditation is supposed to be the solution to life's problems, when it's just a method for handling your inner life.
Coping skills are great, but there is definitely a danger of psychological professionals assuming that changes are not possible and they should just train people to cope. I've literally had a psychologist apologise for spending several months doing that to me, because he didn't realize that I had the resources, and let's be blunt - money - to make greater changes to my life than he expected.
You're partially correct in that it does not focus on the source of stress. Rather, it focuses on the Source of peace.
As a Christian, my contemplative practice is focused on the source of truth and life, Christ Jesus. There will still be suffering in this life, but it will pass away, and Christ will remain, our Source of peace and comfort.
My contemplative practice helps me prepare for that day by peeling away all the distractions and false trappings of everyday life, and discovering what is truly important. It is a journey of discovery, a journey of finding Jesus, and thereby finding my identity as a child of God.
Maybe the underlying issue is commonly that one worry about things out of ones control.
I don't think anybody is advocating mindfulness as a response to an abusive spouse, but more of a "here's a tool to help you let go of work when you leave the office"
Especially among the HN crowd, I imagine I am not the only one thinking about how to move forward with a project or what I should say in tomorrows stand-up meeting.
There is no core issue to deal with. I can figure both out when I arrive at work tomorrow.
I agree. Sometimes mindfulness may reveal lies to oneself however, sometimes I have been tied to an identity which in itself keeps me tied to a system which oppresses me. Relieving myself of the identity allows me to leave the system which does not serve me.
Stress is all about perception. With mindfulness you can practice changing the way you look at things. If you practice zooming out of things that induce fear and see a bigger picture this will generally reduce stress.
The mind has a natural tendency to zoom in on scary things. I guess that is our prey-animal heritage.
Certainly, for rightfully stressful situations immediate action is needed and mindfulness is not a solution, but in modern life almost all stress comes from the imagination. If you are not conscious of your own thinking fearful thoughts may suck you in indefinitely.
Mindfulness (and psychedelics) can greatly help with becoming (more) conscious of fearful thoughts and that enables you to deal with them constructively.
Clearly it depends on the type mindfulness. From the paper:
> mindfulness is typically defined as “the awareness that emerges through paying attention on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally to the unfolding of experience moment by moment”. Core MBP elements are mindfulness meditation training, doing things mindfully such as eating or brushing one’s teeth, and collective and individual inquiry with a qualified teacher, using participatory learning processes.
Probably heightening consciousness while brushing your teeth is not the most direct way to mitigating stress.
The mind is the brain and the body. Stress is generated by the mind when contacting external objects, or when reliving past trauma.
There is no such thing as an external source of stress. You can't measure how much stress an object or situation is objectively emitting, because it is a response generated by the mind itself.
As such it can only be examined by the mind itself, and with that it can be mastered.
If your body is ill and needs surgery, the aftermath of the surgery can make you feel worse for a while.
Likewise, if not understood well, not accompanied by proper understanding (which is a symptom of the western approach), it can just be poorly performed.
Readit News
Unlike all the garbage apps which ask you for subscriptions and DLCs just to play 10 minutes of audio, every single thing is free and freely downloadable. It also has customization options, a journal, a very simple and rational interface and a small corpus of advice.
Deleted Comment
Yes.
> have my phone tell me what to do next"
The phone is a tool. It doesn't tell me what to do.
> you are unable to mediate without the help of an app, start here, instead of pretending you are meditating just because some app tells you every step along the way.
Mindfulness and Buddhism is traditionally practiced in a teacher-student setting. Are they all pretending to meditate because they have a teacher telling them what to do every step of the way?
Your entire comment reeks of utter mindlessness. Maybe an app would help?
You can even get an EEG reader for biofeedback meditation like Muse. Works well as long as you stay away from the Deepak Chopra stuff.
I've used analogue timers to determine when to get up from my session. Please explain the difference between an analogue timer and a digital one, for this purpose.
I wouldn't come to a tech site to air the counter-tech opinion and I wouldn't anticipate a fair and balanced response.
https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240003927
Here's more detail about how it was tested. https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/2022-apri...
Many people rarely experience a state of mind where they are fully present in the moment, where the past and future are irrelevant, and only the immediate moment matters. Some may have experienced this while watching a sunrise or after a moment of joyous exertion. However, through the practice of mindfulness meditation, one can intentionally enter this state of mind, which can be profoundly healing.
Mindfulness meditation is not goal-oriented. It's not practiced with the intention of achieving peace of mind or eliminating stress. The desire for things to be different, for wanting to be "there" instead of "here," is the modus operandi of our thinking mind. Mindfulness meditation allows us to enter a different state of mind, an observing mind that perceives things as they are. It observes the thinking mind and realizes that we are not our thoughts, or our thinking mind. We are much more than that, a meta-mind.
This concept may be challenging for many participants on this forum to accept, as they are entrenched in an outcome and achievement-focused mindset. They may have never experienced a mindful moment, and therefore dismiss it as nonsense.
It's nonsensical to "evaluate" mindfulness meditation in terms of results to be achieved.
Mindfulness meditation is not about striving for specific outcomes, but rather about embracing a set of practices that cultivate acceptance. It's about acknowledging and accepting our thoughts, feelings, and experiences without judgment. It's about observing reality as it unfolds, moment by moment, and embracing it in its entirety, with all its complexities and contradictions.
This practice encourages us to regularly connect with the present moment, to truly experience the 'now' rather than getting lost in the past or the future. It's about letting go of our preconceived notions, our biases, and our incessant need to control. It's about surrendering to the flow of life, allowing things to be as they are, and finding peace in that acceptance.
It kind of works. But the corpus of Buddhism is what makes it powerful. And this is hard to make palatable for the West.
The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy.
Very important aspects of Buddhism that make the whole much more powerful are:
- Living & acting out of compassion (boddhicitta): if your main focus is other not yourself, a huge relief of worries is gone, and meaning arises naturally.
- Accepting change. There are 2 ways to see change: "nothing matters" or "no need to worry, just relax". Buddhist meditation is geared to getting you to the positive kind.
- Understanding emptiness (or space) as the nature of all experiences, both rationally but in the end resting in this experience in meditation means dissolving into everything and experiencing deep bliss.
And of course the power devotion & social aspects of all religion can not be overlooked, good & bad.
My teachings are from Tibetan kind, which is more mystical & compassionate oriented then the southern countries which are more focus on self-actualization (they teach the Vispasanna retreats)
The "western way" is only (strictly) in opposition to Buddhism in the narrative you are subscribing to. The reality is that many Americans are acutely aware of just how toxic aspects of mainstream American culture. It is probably best to approach debate from this point of view, particularly if you want to convince people rather than simply pissing them off.
If someone says Buddhism is not for them - drop it. You don't understand their problems better than they do and your religion - like all religions - requires an irrational leap of faith whether you like it or not. This is off putting to a lot of people who favor rationality - particularly those who are so fed up with the aforementioned mainstream culture I describe (but don't subscribe to your religion).
Just to clarify again, my contention is not that you're arguing incorrectly per se. It is that you are being overconfident and righteous, which appears smug and indicates you aren't _really_ looking to empathize with contradicting points of view. It's rude. If I came up to you and told you about how Jesus was going to change your life, smiling the whole time and speaking only of the positives you might feel similarly? I don't know.
1) People who don't actually know what Mindfulness is, other than secondhand sources, word of mouth, etc.
2) People who've tried Mindfulness, and they know a little more than (1) due to direct experience, and possibly a minister who guided them.
3) People who were born into a family whose members fervently pratices Mindfulness, teach Mindfulness to others, and promote it in public.
Now let's see why people hate Mindfulness or say it's not for them.
(1) may say that it sounds weird or foreign, it can't be efficacious, it's too abstract, because they don't know what it's about.
(2) may say that it was hard to concentrate, they kept getting distracted, the classes were expensive, they traveled too far, they didn't feel it working fast enough, it was boring, too spiritual / not spiritual enough.
(3) perhaps their family life was bad, they were neglected or abused, their family members seemed to care more about Mindfulness than this person, and being that "Family" and "Mindfulness" are inextricably linked in their mind, they must reject Mindfulness because it's tarnished by the behavior of its adherents.
So I'd say, don't attack someone who is acting as an evangelist for something, because perhaps they act in good faith. Particularly in HN, this thread is optional for you and me, and so if you feel like it's proseltyzing, just flag it and move on, don't attack a guy because he believes that Emacs and Lisp are the best apps to install on your Linux machine.
> Understanding emptiness
The other points are valid to me, this one belongs in the realm of metaphysics for me.
Buddha said a lot of good things IMHO, but very questionable stuff too. "Monasteries are allowed to own slaves, individual monks not." for example. If you mention that, Buddhists get uneasy and/or defensive.
There is a nice App called Buddha Quotes on F-Droid. I recommend to install it via Foxy Droid:
https://f-droid.org/repo/nya.kitsunyan.foxydroid_4.apk
> The other points are valid to me, this one belongs in the realm of metaphysics for me.
Isn't this something both the Buddha and modern science agree on? Matter if comprised of mostly empty space. It's physics, no meta.
But also emptiness as a meditative state (Samatha) can be experienced. Whether or not you end up believing it's the essence of reality, you can experience it as the essence of your experience through meditation.
>"The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy."
See. I'm a buddhist and don't agree with this at all.
Any links or book names to read more about this?
It's more focused on the compassion part. The mystical is something which is easy to find online, but hard to find someone with the experience.
But there are different schools, more focused on study, mediation etc. Some are more formal, others informal.
2) Essential Mind Training: Tibetan Wisdom for Daily Life translated by Thupten Jinpa.
Deleted Comment
You'll easily become a victim of people who exploit "caretakers". You'll become an unpaid servant. People need to look after themselves first.
A society of people acting as isolated islands because they all think that they’re out to get eachother is how society crumbles.
You can put others first with boundaries. You can put others first and remain vigilant. The “look after yourself first”. It’s all a false dichotomy, and the basis for an attitude that especially on this website tends to just be privileged tech workers justifying their own ambivalence toward one ethical issue or another.
Another way to think of it is to consider them and you as a single thing (a mandala) and improve that.
And of course Buddhists are not necessarily going to see being victimized as bad anyway. What's that to a monk?
Dead Comment
There is a systematic effort to plagiarize from Indian traditions and then claim them to be rediscoveries of the West, inline with historical racist-supremacist constructions. You can see this historically across Mathematics, Astronomy and Medicine in very concrete terms. That they're now doing it with Yoga, Vipassana, Ayurveda etc. is quite disappointing.
Andrew Huberman at Stanford has an entire lab (and a very popular podcast) designed to rip off Indian traditions to the point where news-releases will neither mention the ripped off name, nor even mention India. The Americans will at-best mention 'South Asia' as if Pakistan/Bangladesh, who are actively genociding followers of India's native faiths, were creators of this.
They've also tried patenting Basmati and Turmeric and many other things. It's amusing to see 'alt-right' geniuses sell things like Ashwagandha/Turmeric and other Ayurvedic nutraceuticals to their 'Murcan audiences' while hating on Hindus as 'satan worshippers who are destroying US'.
On a more important note: this raises a big point. Modern 'Western culture' is not universal, but is in fact very much Christian and with that, has inherited its extremely deep-rooted and vicious irrational hate for so-called 'devil worshipping pagans'.
Western academics will never talk about cultures they've marked for destruction either. Very much like the Anglo-media almost never lets out the real reason for why they are going for war on random far-off countries (it's not 'democracy and freedom').
I moved out of the US when I realized all this and today generally avoid US/Europe, both for business and travel.
That's just inverting Tibetan Buddhism; if you wanted anyone to believe in something you invented there, you had to claim it was old and from India.
Old and from Tibet was okay sometimes, but only if you claimed your ancestor's spirits dictated it to you or pointed you to the ancient rock it was buried under. (these are called air and earth termas)
Buddhist ideology on the other hand is up to debate and everyone is free to try it or believe it.
Maybe in your experience meditation is enhanced by believing all that stuff, but that is your prerogative. I can do mindfulness and go to a psychologist instead of doing meditation and going to a temple because maybe that oriental stuff feels too alien and doesn't seem right to me.
You don't need to buy into the esoteric teachings, or even the core belief of reincarnation. But you don't have to reject them either. Just inform yourself on the basics and keep them in mind. "If this bit was true, what would the world be like? How would my actions impact the world? How would they impact my future self?"
In the end the whole point is reducing suffering, and the longer you wait for someone else to verify one claim or another, the longer you're going to be bound to your habitual suffering.
Really?
Therapy in itself has limited scientific backing (specific types for specific diagnosis often do). But it feels rational.
However the main point is: Buddhism, and all religions, focus on why you do what you do.
The Western Way is confusing, partially career & material, bit of humanism, etc. Now that's fine. You can figure it out in this system and some people do. But there is no clear road. There is freedom in that, but it comes with a huge amount of anxiousness & confusion.
The western reason for doing things: focusing on getting external circumstances in order (friends, career, house, family) will cause a huge amount of anxiety. Buddhism, and perhaps also Christianity, give non-personal teachings to elevate your focus to a point where it's less about what you do & who you are.
You don't have to believe me and can wait for science to figure this out. But seeing the rise of anxiety, depression & pill usage, I don't have much confidence in the current understanding of the Western world in mental health.
Dead Comment
I don't say that it doesn't "work", but one should be aware of the limitation of mindfulness practices, and look at it just as one of the tools in a tool set to fight stress, not as a holy grail, like many of its proponents preach.
Is there a forum like Hacker News, but with no "talking out of your ass"?
How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this?
The thought "Is it a long term effect or just temporary?" is totally fine. But then just posting out of your ass does not help anyobody. A quick search for "months" in the meta study shows that they looked at effects during the 6 months after the intervention.
So I think many people together could come up with an interesting discussion. But it would mean everybody has to do some work.
This particular one does a lot of math which no one has the patience to verify. It just sounds smart, like the papers on nature.com that advertise probiotics.
If you trick yourself into being happy while being exploited by the system it may indeed work (that's why rulers liked Christianity as a tool for pacifying the masses). But you are not solving the underlying issues.
Well, the way you achieve a forum where nobody talks out of your ass is by making a forum without a submit button.
However I agree, it's absurd the level of quackery that takes over HN in these circumstances, as if one SV weirdo's magic mushroom trip invalidates decades of genuine research on what makes people stressed and the ways to mitigate that stress.
Nope, apparently we are just all following the wrong religion!
Well, it's quite true that sometimes instead of developing stress resilience you should simply get rid of the source of the stress.
I’ve seen the best results with niche email lists that actively moderate the discussion quality. But the results are mixed and I eventually decided that it’s a lost cause. People who don’t bring anything to the table tend to have more time on their hands to post nonsense.
I am giving my opinion on a random forum, not writing a study about mindfulness. I didn't even say anything controversial, a glance at the wikipedia page would list a bunch of criticism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Concerns_and_criti...
> Is there a forum like Hacker News, but with no "talking out of your ass"? > How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this?
For example, you could try not to be an asshole and not to "talk out of your ass". Be a change you want to see.
Btw, in your case, a mindfulness practice could actually help. Instead of pretending to be an angry internet gestapo, you can try some basic breathing practices for a few minutes.
Asking people to post their work and downvoting/flagging/banning them if they refuse.
Dead Comment
This only makes sense if you assume that being stressed is a correct and useful response to your environment.
As a Christian, my contemplative practice is focused on the source of truth and life, Christ Jesus. There will still be suffering in this life, but it will pass away, and Christ will remain, our Source of peace and comfort.
My contemplative practice helps me prepare for that day by peeling away all the distractions and false trappings of everyday life, and discovering what is truly important. It is a journey of discovery, a journey of finding Jesus, and thereby finding my identity as a child of God.
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I don't think anybody is advocating mindfulness as a response to an abusive spouse, but more of a "here's a tool to help you let go of work when you leave the office"
Especially among the HN crowd, I imagine I am not the only one thinking about how to move forward with a project or what I should say in tomorrows stand-up meeting.
There is no core issue to deal with. I can figure both out when I arrive at work tomorrow.
This isn't bad. One can take medicine to reduce a fever to help the body heal.
Nobody says "but reducing the fever is worthless, that is just treating a symptom".
The mind has a natural tendency to zoom in on scary things. I guess that is our prey-animal heritage.
Certainly, for rightfully stressful situations immediate action is needed and mindfulness is not a solution, but in modern life almost all stress comes from the imagination. If you are not conscious of your own thinking fearful thoughts may suck you in indefinitely.
Mindfulness (and psychedelics) can greatly help with becoming (more) conscious of fearful thoughts and that enables you to deal with them constructively.
Clearly it depends on the type mindfulness. From the paper:
> mindfulness is typically defined as “the awareness that emerges through paying attention on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally to the unfolding of experience moment by moment”. Core MBP elements are mindfulness meditation training, doing things mindfully such as eating or brushing one’s teeth, and collective and individual inquiry with a qualified teacher, using participatory learning processes.
Probably heightening consciousness while brushing your teeth is not the most direct way to mitigating stress.
No, stress is actually physiological. What your saying is limited to specific sources of stress.
There is no such thing as an external source of stress. You can't measure how much stress an object or situation is objectively emitting, because it is a response generated by the mind itself.
As such it can only be examined by the mind itself, and with that it can be mastered.
https://lassebomh.github.io/box-breathing/
If you scroll down there is a simple guide and some relaxing music. The site can also be installed as a PWA and added to your homescreen / desktop.
[Too Much Mindfulness Can Worsen Your Mental Health] https://www.verywellhealth.com/mindfulness-can-be-harmful-re...
Likewise, if not understood well, not accompanied by proper understanding (which is a symptom of the western approach), it can just be poorly performed.
Quality, not quantity.