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dmd · 3 years ago
A lot of people - especially people with impairments whom it would help a lot if they know about it - are unaware of the fantastic pointer-accessibility stuff that's built into MacOS:

https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/move-the-pointer-us...

You can control the pointer with head movements, and click with things like blinks and smiles. All built into the OS, no 3rd party software.

kayge · 3 years ago
I've been looking for settings like this on my iPhone -- I'm probably in the minority here but I'd love to be able to do a couple of simple gesture-based commands on my phone. E.g. when I'm driving and my phone is mounted just slightly out of reach, and I no longer need my screen on and displaying Maps, it would be great if I could do some kind of hand wave to lock the screen. Sure I could mount my phone closer, or just lean over a bit and hit the button, or probably even ask Siri to do it... but dammit a [Jedi | Minority Report | Tony Stark ] hand-wave would be much cooler :) Pixel phones have some similar abilities: https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/9517454
kyle-rb · 3 years ago
That was only available on the Pixel 4. They got rid of the chip in later phones, due to battery life issues and cost:

https://www.androidpolice.com/google-pixel-4-killed-motion-s...

goguy · 3 years ago
If quick gestures aren’t working: Turn off your phone, then turn it back on.

Some tricks never die.

npunt · 3 years ago
Heat pointer is great and I really hope Apple follows it up with building proper eye tracking hardware and software into Macs & iDevices. It's such a great opportunity to improve UX and reduce RSI for everyone by sharing the load among more input sources. I've tried the Tobii stuff but it's not great, no solution out there has quite nailed the calibration nor the UX yet, as it requires OS-level UX changes.

Every input source has a point after which it causes fatigue or pain - hands, head, eyes, tongue, feet, etc. The more the load is spread out, the better! This MouthPad looks fantastic as another input method to share the load.

Aachen · 3 years ago
A feature nobody knows about which I loved back when using Windows was the cursor defaulting to the confirmation button in dialogs. Nowadays where everything is web it's less useful I suppose, but makes clicking through those dialogs nicely faster also as someone who doesn't have a mouse-related impairment!
kelnos · 3 years ago
I feel like there's a lot of room for accidents here, though. If you aren't expecting a dialog to come up, but are using the mouse, you might accidentally click to accept something you didn't want to do.

And I'm glad web pages can't make use of this; that's just ripe for abuse. Though I suppose what might be acceptable would be a more limited protocol where a webpage is allowed to ask the web browser to move the pointer to a particular non-hidden UI element, and only in response to some sort of user interaction. Still, this sort of thing seems concerning.

eimrine · 3 years ago
> Nowadays where everything is web it's less useful I suppose

Implementation of cursor defaulting to the declination button in web is waiting for its hero. Also I need to iterate between the all possible Nos on a webpage by pressing Tab/Shift+Tab key on my keyboard since no one uses this key on a web-browser any more.

fwlr · 3 years ago
From the way the cursor moved on the screen and the visualization of input with those orange squares, it looks like it operates similar to the thinkpad trackpoint. (There’s a dose of serendipitous humor here - the trackpoint has an infamous anatomical nickname, and this device seems to be reminding some commenters of a related activity.)

I wonder if they’ve explored trackballs? Conventional trackballs are operated with a single finger, usually the thumb, and proponents of trackballs claim it’s the equal of (or even superior to) a mouse, while touchpads and trackpoints do seem slightly limited compared to full-fledged mice. Controlling a trackball with your tongue instead of your thumb seems like it might be just as effective - maybe even more effective! This might be an avenue to make this device even more capable.

(Did I just compare the cunnilingus touchpad to the clit mouse, and then suggest adding “licking balls”? Goddamnit, lol)

kevincox · 3 years ago
From the descriptions on the website they claim it controls like a touchpad, not a trackpoint. (touchpad means tongue distance == cursor distance whereas trackpoint means tongue distance/pressure == cursor speed)

That being said trackpoint-style movement sounds better to me since my tongue has such limited motion compared to a large trackpad surface. Unless it is about to be much more dexterous than my finger (which doesn't seem right to me, but impossible to say without trying) it would be annoying to make large movements and repeated large movements seems like it would be tiring quite quickly.

estebank · 3 years ago
> I wonder if they’ve explored trackballs?

I'd be concerned with the mechanical interaction of saliva with any mechanism, size concerns (this seems like it could be operated with clenched jaws if needed, opened mouth for extended periods of time can cause pain), and having moving pieces that can break or be lost (hopefully not during operation, that could be hard to swallow).

btbuildem · 3 years ago
What if that part would be in software - interpret the movement of the tongue as if it was rolling a ball vs sliding across a surface. The device could have a spherical-shaped sensor pad instead of a flat one.
jmartrican · 3 years ago
Don't feel too bad, in the video on their website one of the users mentioned using it to control her dildo.
millerm · 3 years ago
Vibrator. :-)
danmur · 3 years ago
It's impossible to discuss this thing with a straight face

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stronglikedan · 3 years ago
I think moving a ball would require more effort that sliding your tongue over a static surface, but I suppose it would be a better workout!
passwordoops · 3 years ago
I worked in accessible tech for the blind for a few years. It's awesome that these guys are doing something that could be genuinely useful to a swathe of society who really needs the help, and I do wish the space got more attention and money.

However, and I hope I'm wrong here, this is looking like another case of techies with a nifty looking device that will be "available soon" but, more importantly, already tried multiple times and either never caught on for practical reasons or doesn't present a real improvement over what's already out there (0 - for three such mouth trackpads).

I wish the investors and incubators that take these companies to market would do a much better job of coaching the founders on product/market research with target users so they can focus on truly novel solutions to genuine problem spaces that are ignored, but would make a real material improvement to quality if life.

As an example, in BlindTech it was the "smart cane", which is dumb for so many reasons and will never, ever catch on, but every 6 months or so... Here pops another start up with a seed of $0.1-1M to go to market! That money would be better spent just buying "dumb" canes at a volume discount and reselling them... Or, if you insist on developing a BlindTech solution, an app that could tell a user when they missed a button on their blouse or shirt (I never worked in the paraplegic space, so I'm not sure what other challenges the users face).

(0) https://www.disabled-world.com/assistivedevices/smart-mouthw...

https://spinalcordinjuryzone.com/info/17816/glassouse-worlds...

https://quad.life/

Sunhold · 3 years ago
Product 1 never reached the market. Product 2 and 3 are very different.
passwordoops · 3 years ago
Product 1 - failed (why?) Product 2 - identical use case Product 3 - identical use case

I want to be clear - it's awesome they are putting in the effort to work in accessibility. But why will Product #4 prove profitable when it is a rehash of an approach that has been tried for years without gaining much steam above and beyond what is already there.

What is the evidence that their tweak in technology will be a major market breakthrough? Is it that much easier to use? Is it that much more comfortable? If the answer is inconclusive, then best to leave this application and find an overlooked problem paraplegics face that really could benefit from a technology solution

throwaway049 · 3 years ago
Even copycat competition might help in that it can lower prices for consumers. I use a Penguin mouse and they cost a lot for what is just generic electronics in an unusual-shaped housing. But I can't find any other ambidextrous vertical mouse.
passwordoops · 3 years ago
I agree, more competition is generally better but the unfortunate reality of accessible tech is margins are usually already very low, and real market not that big [0]. So if a price war starts the result is usually a company deciding to leave the space entirely.

[0] Yes, there is a huge population of people who will benefit from accessible tech, unfortunately very often they cannot afford the technology and the funding is often limited

agileAlligator · 3 years ago
> I use a Penguin mouse

I couldn't help but chuckle when I saw what it looked like. I'm curious, what are the advantages to using this over a regular mouse?

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platers · 3 years ago
I've never heard of a "smart cane", I'm curious why its a dumb idea?
passwordoops · 3 years ago
I'll link to an open source project [0] because I don't want to throw mud at any particular company, and it is a cool project to develop for anyone motivated enough.

Having said that, it's a dumb product because the cane is very often beaten up, or misplaced so it's an expectation that it will need replacing every 12-18 months. The additional weight needed for the hardware throws off the natural balance of the cane making it more difficult to use and also interferes with the haptic feedback users depend on from a "dumb" cane. Also, the white cane is relatively cheap ($20-50 USD) - smart canes are usually $1000+, or if the "smarts" come as attachments to an analog cane, they would range $300-500 (my intelligence is 2-3 years old, so it might be higher now), so out of reach to most blind people. None are stand-alone and require synching with the phone, but many users who are tech savvy enough to use one of these already uses a navigation app, so one of the key benefits (GPS navigation) is redundant.

Overall the drawbacks (price, negative impact on usability, natural wear and tear) greatly outweigh the possible benefits.

Everyone in the industry is genuine, there is very little profiteering, and the goal across the board is to improve people's lives, but these products are always from young techies (student or technically advanced blind person) who made an awesome project that should be celebrated. But they should also be one-offs and open-sourced, with the money and effort spent on launching smart canes that will inevitably fail in the market better spent elsewhere.

[0] https://maker.pro/arduino/projects/arduino-smart-cane-for-th...

Cthulhu_ · 3 years ago
I'd like to see more comments from the target audience, at the moment the comment section is full of abled people who speculate on the needs and experiences of the target audience.
serf · 3 years ago
I'm a c-5 incomplete quadriplegic with hemispheric stroke-like paralysis that bothers my body all over. Some of it is just weakness, some of it is incomplete sensation, some of it is total paralysis. I have one weak-yet-functioning hand, and one hand that works only via the tone present in the hand as a rough pointing-poking tool. I use a manual wheelchair. At my injury level I am exceedingly fortunate to have decent trunk and upper body mobility.

I have found setups that work for me, and i'm comfortable now -- but I wish I had something like this years ago when I had to make accommodations.

My main worry in seeing this -- like all accessibility equipment -- is that it will be outrageously priced or locked up behind some kind of insurance coding so as to capture that segment of the market; most medical groups aim for VFW-equivalent equipment coverage on insurance, and I have no-where near that.

That said : I would love this as a device for TIG-torch actuation. That's one nut that I haven't yet been able to crack, and I was seriously considering the idea of tinkering up some kind of mouth-actuated wireless solution for welding. I can imagine this as a PC bridge to an interface that could help realize a fine control for the torch.

d0gsg0w00f · 3 years ago

    > I would love this as a device for TIG-torch actuation
Thanks for the chuckle.

My mom works with people with disabilities and all of her clients that I've met are like this--determined and capable.

I imagine there's a lot of people who need help in getting these tech setups going with a bunch of trial and error and then after that they can independently operate. Are there any volunteer groups that help with that?

RoyGBivCap · 3 years ago
>My main worry in seeing this -- like all accessibility equipment -- is that it will be outrageously priced or locked up behind some kind of insurance coding so as to capture that segment of the market; most medical groups aim for VFW-equivalent equipment coverage on insurance, and I have no-where near that.

Our trains of though crossed paths here. I was thinking about how useful it might be to an able bodied person, if it would be fun or even beneficial to use. Like having a third hand in gaming would be nice sometimes. Then it immediately called to mind how outrageously expensive aid devices like this tend to be. For example an actually good hearing aid is like $2,000 for some reason. And a really nice robotic wheelchair can be like $40,000. So with disappointment I assume this thing, even if it makes it to scaled up commercial production is going to be out of my price range as someone who doesn't actually need it but wouldn't mind helping to fund the project.

Is the apparent price gouging because insurance might pay for it? Or because some people don't have a choice but to buy it?

jaggirs · 3 years ago
I have had periods of time where I couldn't use my hands to use the computer due to bad rsi. I used an eye tracker for controlling the mouse and a voice recognition tool (talon) for typing. However, I couldn't use these for very long because I got a sore throat from speaking in a way the computer understands, and focusing places with my eyes all the time gave me headaches.

While a mouthpad seems slighly superior to an eye tracker, the real benefit lies in having more alternatives in my opinion. So you can use your tongue when your eyes are tired and your eyes when your tongue is tired.

cortensinger · 3 years ago
+1 on the complementary potential of the MouthPad^.

As you mention, the MouthPad^ would serve as an awesome tool in tandem with gaze-based cursor control. I’d like to point out that there are also other interface combinations that could work well, too. For example, we have tested using our device in tandem with voice-assistant systems and found preliminary success as our device does not prevent speech. In the end, everyone has different needs and preferences, and each interface has their quirks, so we aim to create a better option by leveraging the power of the tongue (comprised of 8 different muscles, and intrinsically dexterous).

fathyb · 3 years ago
I immediately sent this to my tetraplegic brother in-law. He cannot move his fingers so he uses a special device to precisely point on a touchscreen using his fist. It makes sense to me: other than the fingers, the tongue is probably the most precise output device on the body.
notamy · 3 years ago
I have joint+nerve issues and struggle using a computer -- but a mouse in particular -- for extended periods. Something like this would be game-changing for me; it would be awesome to have another input with "resolution"/accuracy anywhere close to what the mouse can do. Eye tracking isn't quite it for me, trackballs are very uncomfortable (thumbs are one of the biggest joint issues for me), ergonomic mice that meet my needs are hard to find with left-handed design, keyboard as mouse input works terribly, ... so a device like this would be wonderful.
browie · 3 years ago
It's interesting but I wouldn't use it, partly because I got some hand functions still as a quadriplegic, I'm typing this on a keyboard with only my thumbs and I can type quite fast. I also have my mouse clicks switched as I cannot move my index finger, so I click with my middle finger. Other quadriplegics have it worse so things like this would be dope for them. At the end of the day, we will adapt to anything regardless.
gwbas1c · 3 years ago
> abled people who speculate on the needs

A device like this makes a lot of sense for wearable computing. I wouldn't assume the target market are people with disabilities.

bpshaver · 3 years ago
The trailer video exclusively features people with quadriplegia.
ackbar03 · 3 years ago
I've always dreamed of controlling my computer with my tongue. This looks fantastic

Dead Comment

molasses · 3 years ago
I'm able bodied, but years back suffered tremendous pain, that led to me having to lie down on my back and use the computer with a keyboard. And TBH even that was a pain. I got quite far under OSX tiger, and browse the web. Use a terminal etc. But at the time it led me into thinking about alternative interfaces. And the one thing that did catch my eye was 'dasher' for text entry. Which could be controlled with a simple pointer. And it did make me wonder how far you could go with a pointer based interface. I wasn't that fast while trying it out. But could construct sentences with a bit of effort.

https://www.inference.org.uk/dasher/

I've been thinking about it some more recently, as AI could assist with word completion, and augmenting it with some AI helpers could really improve things. And if the idea was extended.

Not wanting to sound like an able-ist snob, but interfacing with traditional computers with a keyboard is hard. And the interface is clumsy. Even touch devices and keyboards. My Mum could never use a computer, but she has worked out how to use a tablet and find videos on Youtube. I keep meaning to introduce her to voice input. As this would really benefit her.

Despite the huge tech leaps with smartphones and tablets and what not, I do feel there has been a huge regression in basic communication between people only exacerbated by the pandemic. There's knowledge available easily at people's fingertips and that's great, along with new channels of communication. But text based comms have retarded many people.

lachlan_gray · 3 years ago
Since when we talk, our tongues tap patterns on the roof of the mouth and the back of the teeth, I wonder if AI processing could infer what words you are shaping from these sensors. Maybe it’s possible to input text by mouthing words silently, but without opening your mouth. Kind of like how it’s possible to eavesdrop from just the sound of keyboard clicks:

https://github.com/ggerganov/kbd-audio

dmreedy · 3 years ago
Tongue contact might be sufficient (in linguistics, two of the axes of "pronunciation space" are "dental" (whether the tongue makes contact with the teeth) and "palatal" (whether the tongue makes contact with the palate).

There are a number of other dimensions however that are equally important in the creation of word-sounds (e.g., whether the lips are pursed, whether the vocal folds are vibrating, whether the teeth make contact with the lips, where the tongue is located in the space of the mouth [for vowels], etc) and would make determination just from the dental/palatal axes pretty difficult I think. But maybe with enough context, you could get something predictive that is more than good enough, even if it's not into deterministic territory

6177c40f · 3 years ago
I think you're talking about subvocal recognition [1]. People are indeed using ML for it, but it looks like it's more complicated than it appears. Still, I think it's only a matter of time before it's available to the average consumer, which I can't wait for because I've wanted something like this for a long time. I do my best thinking when I'm hiking, and I'd love to be able to dictate my thoughts on the move without looking like I'm talking to myself out loud (even though I am, I guess) in public.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subvocal_recognition

jlundberg · 3 years ago
Dasher is really fun!

Remember playing a lot with it back when it was released. Left a lasting impression and broadend my view on input mechanisms.

ycombinete · 3 years ago
I realise this is intended for accessibility (for which is looks amazing), but I can also see this gaining widespread abled [0] use for things like gaming, and making mobile computing easier.

I can see myself pulling out the iPad on the train, and popping in the mouthpad to make navigation through Mails, Procreate, etc. easier.

[0] I tried "non-disabled" here, but that just seemed too clumsy. Am I missing an obvious term?

lucubratory · 3 years ago
Abled is the correct term, yeah. Sometimes we call them pre-disabled if we're being cheeky or trying to make a point.
schappim · 3 years ago
You mean tongue in cheek.
blowski · 3 years ago
Yes, while we all tend to jump to permanent disabilities as the justification for accessibility, one can have situationally or otherwise temporarily reduced ability. Examples that jump to mind:

* broken fingers

* wearing gloves at a cold station

* a parent holding a bottle while feeding a newborn baby

* a chef working with busy/messy hands

* a computer with a dodgy mouse and no trackpad

tornato7 · 3 years ago
I bet the CIA could make nice use of this too - imagine spies sending messages completely undetected even when standing a foot away from someone.
pxeger1 · 3 years ago
"able-bodied" is a common one, but doesn't quite fit here. I think "widespread" on its own is good enough to get across that you mean expanding to outside the market of disabled people
ndsipa_pomu · 3 years ago
Your sentence makes perfect sense if you just omit "abled", but it seems like a perfectly cromulent word.
DonHopkins · 3 years ago
Lick right in Tinder!
tyingq · 3 years ago
One use case that popped in my head was stealthy use, like card counting or cheating on tests. Especially if it had some kind of haptic feedback.

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proto_lambda · 3 years ago
"abled" is the term your looking for, yes.
nonethewiser · 3 years ago
Better interfaces will always be valuable. I see no reason to believe keyboard and mouse are the pinnacle.
pen2l · 3 years ago
It seems pretty nifty.

I played around with Tobii eye-tracking hardware half a decade ago and was pretty amazed by its precision. I understand now it also has Glasses (vs. the model I tried, a tracker you put below your monitor usually). Marrying eye-tracking glasses with this mouthpad might be a winning combination: eye-tracking being the mouse to navigate in xy-space, and mouthpad for clicks.

Kudos to this group for putting out a finished product though, can't wait to see it used and iterated more out in the field.

Loranubi · 3 years ago
The tongue muscle can be trained. This is also useful for at least one other activity.
systemtest · 3 years ago
I switched to using a glue stick for mailing letters.
evan_ · 3 years ago
I wonder if this has fine enough resolution to allow the wearer to input text by writing letters with their tongue.
UncleEntity · 3 years ago
So expect one as a stocking stuffer from the significant other?

—edit—

Mavis Beacon Teaches… umm, got nothing.

Ok, I’m done.

pawelduda · 3 years ago
Tobii's tech is used in Sony's PSVR2 for eye tracking and it works wonderfully with foveated rendering or to point at menu elements with your eyes
simultsop · 3 years ago
I just tried this in my mind, eyes (point) + tounge (click, double-click) would definitely be a great interface combo.
cortensinger · 3 years ago
Hello everyone, I am Corten, one of the co-founders of Augmental. I must say that it’s pretty amazing to see the MouthPad^ make some waves in this forum - thank you for your support and interest! As you can imagine, things have been busy on our end, but I’ll answer as many questions as I can.

Our main goal in designing the MouthPad^ is to provide universal digital accessibility for all, and to explore alternative input modalities for wearable hands-free interaction. The MouthPad^ is designed for anyone interested in using their tongue and mouth to control their personal devices, including computers, tablets and smartphones. In particular, we have worked closely with the disability community as this alternative input modality provides immediate value. We strongly believe that, in working with this community, we can build a better interface for everyone. As such, we envision a future in which anyone could have a MouthPad^!