> The important thing to remember here is that our kids have opted in for all these activities. We only do what they are interested in. And this is what makes unschooling beautiful.
This is the part that’s scary due to selective bias. I had no clue whatsoever about most things I learnt in school until I uhmm learned them.
If I were given a choice whether to spend hours learning integral calculus or partial differential equations, I’d have most certainly said no! But, at the end of it I realised they were the foundations for something greater - projectile calculations with integral calculus.
Education teaches one to think. Some level of wild walks in the subject is necessary in my opinion.
School says "this is integral calculus. Memorize it (at least until the test)."
Unschooling hears a kid say they want to make a robot, then gets excited and suggests a PID controller. The kid wants to make one, so they get necessarily are introduced to the I part. They seek it out. They want to learn it.
It'd be a mistake to interpret "we only do what they are interested in" as "we stay within their filter bubble." Unschooling gets rid of the bubble and allows everything as a target in the pursuit of knowledge.
The I in PID is referring to a pretty simple arithmetic sum inside of a control loop. Around 30 lines of simple C.
The original post is presumably referring to symbolic integral calculus, perhaps in a multivariable context if we're referring to partial DEs.
The level of rigor and complexity here is a couple orders of magnitude difference. I think there's still a case to be made for autodidaction of higher mathematics (it was certainly the path I went down), but I think unschooling is probably not best for most folks.
You have a decent argument, but your example of calculus is about the worst you could have picked. I got 99% in calculus at UBC in the first semester, and then I set the ridiculous goal of beating that in the second. I did get my 100%, but what a waste of time. It’s never been useful to me as a software engineer, what I remember is dangerous, and the opportunity cost of spending all that time on it was high.
I plan to unschool my kids one day, and I won’t try to force them to learn calculus. Some ground rules are necessary to get some breadth of education, but otherwise I’d rather nurture their natural curiosity and motivation than stifle it.
My own education in software and computers is basically unschooling. It was fun, and I quickly surpassed my peers and went on to have a great career. I’m only 20 years in, but the difference in motivation and outcome is compelling.
> You have a decent argument, but your example of calculus is about the worst you could have picked.
> I got 99% in calculus at UBC in the first semester, and then I set the ridiculous goal of beating that in the second. I did get my 100%, but what a waste of time.
Huh. Of all examples you could choose, you picked one where you were already in college, and specifically you pointed out how you got 99% in one university class and decided why not get 100% in another. And then you felt that the extra gain of 1% wasn't worth your efforts.
• For most families, by the time your child is ready to learn Calculus with a private tutor or yourself, hopefully you should be very well attuned and be able to have a sophisticated conversation with them about what they're interested in. Of course if your child is learning Calculus at a very early age then you're going to have a very different situation than nearly all other families, whether schooled or unschooled.
• Even in your example, it sounds like doing Calculus early would not be a bad choice. Since you don't think Calculus was profitable, why not fulfill those early reqs and instead take classes on what you really enjoy, esp. since classes are so expensive? This is a well known strategy.
However, my unschooled child loves maths and has...and much more...he's now doing maths at uni. He's also so deep into the philosophy world that my mind hurts just reading the titles of the books he buys.
I wish I had the encouragement and freedom to explore without judgement when I was that age.
That's one data point. I definitely wouldn't have said yes. I didn't even think math would still be useful today(And in fact, it mostly isn't for non-STEM and non-business people).
I didn't know getting a degree would be anything I'd ever want, self taught programmers seemed to do better back then.
I was not in any place to predict the future, nor was I ever one of those people strongly motivated by ideas and abstractions for their own sake.
I have a lot of respect for people who manage to educate their kids themselves.
I couldn't do it. My kids don't listen to me when I try to explain something, but they do listen to their teachers in school.
I'm happy I don't have to spend all day with my kids. I love them a lot, and I think I'm doing a decent job as a parent, but I think input from other people is also worth a lot -- especially from people who went to university to become teachers.
The idea of leaving my kids with some stranger for 6hrs a day, who may or may not have ulterior motives behind what they are telling my children, is kind of terrifying.
There was a scandal in our school district recently where an assembly included a drag show that students were forced to watch and parents were not notified of ahead of time.
I'll take my chances teaching them calculus instead. I picked it up eventually they will too.
There is so much about this comment that I disagree with that's its hard to know where to start.
I'll choose just one point, hopefully the least contentious.
Your child isn't being educated by 'some stranger'. They are being educated by someone with the required level of educational attainment themselves.
There is a robust regulatory framework in place to ensure this as well as to address issues relating to the physical school environs and the curriculum taught.
They have passed the necessary background checks and continue to do so.
Those chose to become educators, at time and expense to themselves.
I'm concerned about schooled kids not socializing outside of their direct age group :) There's been plenty written about how unhealthy and damaging it can be to only be in a peer group of people your own age.
Honestly, the socialization is a myth. Homeschoolers socialize with all ages, that's healthy and educational from a huge amount of perspectives. e.g: kids can be become leaders by supporting younger or less able kids.
This topic has come up repeatedly in my circles in the past few months. When I asked people, they noticed at least these benefits of each:
1. Mixed-age groups let you hear perspectives across age groups. You might also have one group helping another in their weak areas. That didn't happen as much in same-age groups I saw.
2. Same-age groups give you people who can relate to you and your life. That might not exist at all in mixed-age groups depending on the age distribution. Some people in mixed-age groups told me they switched to same-age groups for that reason.
I'd be interested in looking at any studies on this topic. Since you mentioned "plenty written," do you have any links we can look at?
I am wondering if there is a selection bias in this that has to do with either the kids that get homeschooled or the parents who take that decision. Like if a parent homeschools their kids because they are afraid of certain external social influences, that would probably imply that they restrict the social life of their kids in different contexts to prevent potential negatively perceived social influence. In the example stated in the article, the kids seem to do a lot of group activities and in general activities that involve other kids or adults than the parents, so I cannot see why such an issue would occur. My suspicion though (and similar anecdotal experience) is that a lot of parents that homeschool their kids are more reclusive, or they are not encouraging socialisation as much for reasons that have to do with that choice.
Just an anecdote so take it for what it is. Sharing as this is something that used to concern me.
We home school our 9 year (autistic) child and he's more socialable than I am (I was schooled prep to 12 at a relatively expensive private school).
Just the other we were at a wildlife sanctuary and he ran off in the bird enclosure. I went to check up on him and found with one of the keepers feeding live worms to the birds (one of a number of interactions he had).
Whereever we go, he has a tendency to walk up to workers and start conversations.
I'm not sure how much his autism diagnosis is at play, but he does seem to lack a lot of the inhibition and intimidation in interacting that a lot of other students his age display.
I first came across unschooling in 1991 via "the Teenage Liberation Handbook (how to quit school and get a real life and education)" by Grace Llewellyn. The updated 30th anniversary edition came out a few years ago.
Wonderful book, I've given out many copies as gifts. Often it can be found online as PDF.
It sounds like Unschooling is what used to be called Deschooling 50 years ago[1], and is very different from homeschooling in that homeschooling uses a government prescribed curriculum that is administered by parents/guardians but is still pretty much the Prussian model of education, at home. The Prussian model is essentially geared towards creating good little workers/consumers with little critical thinking skills, whereas this mode of education is more fluid, to say the least.
All that is fine, but why would anyone in their sane mind have 5 freaking children? Why are Americans obsessed with having such big families? Do you keep spare kids for ghosts to haunt? (like they show in all horror movies)
In India, we call decision of having more than 2 kids insane & cost even though raising a child in India is much lesser.
If you have two full time working parents then two kids is already a lot. Especially if you have your first kid in your thirties.
If you have two parents working part time, maybe in jobs with flexible hours, and grandparents who can help out, and day care / schooling is affordable in your area, and you start having kids in your twenties, then having more kids can work.
For maths, but they pick it up pretty easily in day to day conversations and activities (ipad and gaming helps, imho)
My 11 year old went to school part time, lasted half a term, but his maths skills were on par with the kids there, if not better. He had never done any formal maths.
I only speak on behalf of our family, everyone has different experiences, but it's still important to recognise that life and education can be done differently.
I find the sentiment behind these kinds of comments absolutely baffling. In my experience private schooling is so vastly better than public I can’t conceive of how you’d choose the latter for any reason other than expense or ideology.
People that come out of schools are different though.
I could send my daughter to private school, but would prefer for her to be a part of the rest of society.
Inequality becomes embedded when we separate ourselves from each other, and money is one way people are enabled to.
In the UK, none of the people in charge have actually used the systems they are in charge of and schooling is just one small part.
If you travel on our rail system for longer distances you'll notice that half the train is virtually empty and reserved for 1st class tickets.
If you usually travel in the rest of the train and get one of those tickets it's amazing how isolated from the general problems caused by this system you are.
Yes - the private school system has advantages; they actually aren't in the level of education, but in the connections that people make along the way, in a way it's a very small taste of how corrupt the system is.
There are of course disadvantages to "private schools" (called public schools in the UK for historical reasons), there is a real hierarchy and bullying based on how rich you are, it all enforces the class system that we have.
Lord of the flies was not a commentary on what happens when children are left on an island, but directly on what happens when pupils of that private educations system "public schools" of the UK, are left on an island.
Right now we have a government that is full of exactly that type of person - it's worked out very badly, why on earth would we want more of that sort of thing ?
What sentiment are you talking about? Did I communicate my choice one way or another in my question?
I actually think in general private schools are better too. I have a child and I will not be sending them to public school and am considering the other options including private school, homeschool and unschooling.
And even then, I make room for others to have different opinions on this. And I'm open to my opinion being changed as well.
I asked the OP the question because I'm interested in the reasons why they think it is better. They seem to have a lot of expertise or at least experience in this domain so I thought their answer would be educational and inform my search for alternatives.
You're reading so much into a simple question that does not connote any sentiment or opinion about one way or the other. But go ahead and continue being absolutely baffled by the conclusions you leap to.
Maybe your own experience isn't enough to judge, then. In my own experience, mostly only fringe religious people go to private schools for example, but where I live today private schools are much more common (although just about equivalent to public ones).
Because many private schools cater to the intellectually weak and spoiled. Why work hard when you know your grade is paid for and the teacher will never fail you? Just write your name in cursive three times for extra credit to get that A+, Timmy!
Depending on the school, the smaller settings, the different and wider range of activities and support available. I'm particularly attracted to the Montessori way.
Readit News
This is the part that’s scary due to selective bias. I had no clue whatsoever about most things I learnt in school until I uhmm learned them.
If I were given a choice whether to spend hours learning integral calculus or partial differential equations, I’d have most certainly said no! But, at the end of it I realised they were the foundations for something greater - projectile calculations with integral calculus.
Education teaches one to think. Some level of wild walks in the subject is necessary in my opinion.
Unschooling hears a kid say they want to make a robot, then gets excited and suggests a PID controller. The kid wants to make one, so they get necessarily are introduced to the I part. They seek it out. They want to learn it.
It'd be a mistake to interpret "we only do what they are interested in" as "we stay within their filter bubble." Unschooling gets rid of the bubble and allows everything as a target in the pursuit of knowledge.
The original post is presumably referring to symbolic integral calculus, perhaps in a multivariable context if we're referring to partial DEs.
The level of rigor and complexity here is a couple orders of magnitude difference. I think there's still a case to be made for autodidaction of higher mathematics (it was certainly the path I went down), but I think unschooling is probably not best for most folks.
I plan to unschool my kids one day, and I won’t try to force them to learn calculus. Some ground rules are necessary to get some breadth of education, but otherwise I’d rather nurture their natural curiosity and motivation than stifle it.
My own education in software and computers is basically unschooling. It was fun, and I quickly surpassed my peers and went on to have a great career. I’m only 20 years in, but the difference in motivation and outcome is compelling.
> I got 99% in calculus at UBC in the first semester, and then I set the ridiculous goal of beating that in the second. I did get my 100%, but what a waste of time.
Huh. Of all examples you could choose, you picked one where you were already in college, and specifically you pointed out how you got 99% in one university class and decided why not get 100% in another. And then you felt that the extra gain of 1% wasn't worth your efforts.
• For most families, by the time your child is ready to learn Calculus with a private tutor or yourself, hopefully you should be very well attuned and be able to have a sophisticated conversation with them about what they're interested in. Of course if your child is learning Calculus at a very early age then you're going to have a very different situation than nearly all other families, whether schooled or unschooled.
• Even in your example, it sounds like doing Calculus early would not be a bad choice. Since you don't think Calculus was profitable, why not fulfill those early reqs and instead take classes on what you really enjoy, esp. since classes are so expensive? This is a well known strategy.
However, my unschooled child loves maths and has...and much more...he's now doing maths at uni. He's also so deep into the philosophy world that my mind hurts just reading the titles of the books he buys.
I wish I had the encouragement and freedom to explore without judgement when I was that age.
I'd have said... yes?
Unfortunately school greatly reduced my enthusiasm for certain subjects – and for reading books.
And my enthusiasm for computing was further diminished when it became something I had to do to survive.
I didn't know getting a degree would be anything I'd ever want, self taught programmers seemed to do better back then.
I was not in any place to predict the future, nor was I ever one of those people strongly motivated by ideas and abstractions for their own sake.
It's also funny how my kids outwit me and know so many things that I don't know about.
And how I've gone on to specialise in what drives me, and that just works.
Or how my eldest self taught himself maths to uni level and is now doing maths at uni.
I couldn't do it. My kids don't listen to me when I try to explain something, but they do listen to their teachers in school.
I'm happy I don't have to spend all day with my kids. I love them a lot, and I think I'm doing a decent job as a parent, but I think input from other people is also worth a lot -- especially from people who went to university to become teachers.
My kids still get out. They are still taught by qualified professionals. It's just on our terms and in environments that feel healthier to us.
We're not with them all the time, but we definitely don't get as much free time as those that go to school.
There was a scandal in our school district recently where an assembly included a drag show that students were forced to watch and parents were not notified of ahead of time.
I'll take my chances teaching them calculus instead. I picked it up eventually they will too.
I'll choose just one point, hopefully the least contentious.
Your child isn't being educated by 'some stranger'. They are being educated by someone with the required level of educational attainment themselves. There is a robust regulatory framework in place to ensure this as well as to address issues relating to the physical school environs and the curriculum taught.
They have passed the necessary background checks and continue to do so.
Those chose to become educators, at time and expense to themselves.
I could go on but I won't labour the point
I’ve met a number of homeschooled kids but they always seem to have limited socialization opportunities.
Honestly, the socialization is a myth. Homeschoolers socialize with all ages, that's healthy and educational from a huge amount of perspectives. e.g: kids can be become leaders by supporting younger or less able kids.
1. Mixed-age groups let you hear perspectives across age groups. You might also have one group helping another in their weak areas. That didn't happen as much in same-age groups I saw.
2. Same-age groups give you people who can relate to you and your life. That might not exist at all in mixed-age groups depending on the age distribution. Some people in mixed-age groups told me they switched to same-age groups for that reason.
I'd be interested in looking at any studies on this topic. Since you mentioned "plenty written," do you have any links we can look at?
We home school our 9 year (autistic) child and he's more socialable than I am (I was schooled prep to 12 at a relatively expensive private school).
Just the other we were at a wildlife sanctuary and he ran off in the bird enclosure. I went to check up on him and found with one of the keepers feeding live worms to the birds (one of a number of interactions he had).
Whereever we go, he has a tendency to walk up to workers and start conversations.
I'm not sure how much his autism diagnosis is at play, but he does seem to lack a lot of the inhibition and intimidation in interacting that a lot of other students his age display.
Wonderful book, I've given out many copies as gifts. Often it can be found online as PDF.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deschooling_Society
The boy in the group just played games.
Non of them wanted to use the music instruments the parents bought.
My son gamed alot for 2-3 years, he's moved on to focusing on maths, philosophy and fitness. He puts me to shame tbh.
They should show them new things and teach them some basics.
In India, we call decision of having more than 2 kids insane & cost even though raising a child in India is much lesser.
What am I missing? It's a big cultural shock.
Some people have no kids. Some people have lots. Does it really matter?
If you have two full time working parents then two kids is already a lot. Especially if you have your first kid in your thirties.
If you have two parents working part time, maybe in jobs with flexible hours, and grandparents who can help out, and day care / schooling is affordable in your area, and you start having kids in your twenties, then having more kids can work.
It's their choice, perhaps they enjoy raising children.
For maths, but they pick it up pretty easily in day to day conversations and activities (ipad and gaming helps, imho)
My 11 year old went to school part time, lasted half a term, but his maths skills were on par with the kids there, if not better. He had never done any formal maths.
I only speak on behalf of our family, everyone has different experiences, but it's still important to recognise that life and education can be done differently.
I was 1-2 years ahead of public school coming from private school around 6th grade (11-12yo).
Classic literature.
Controversial literature.
Philosophy.
A nonnative language, preferably Mandarin.
Phonics.
Dialectical method exercises in critical thinking.
What do you find attractive about private schools vs public?
I could send my daughter to private school, but would prefer for her to be a part of the rest of society.
Inequality becomes embedded when we separate ourselves from each other, and money is one way people are enabled to.
In the UK, none of the people in charge have actually used the systems they are in charge of and schooling is just one small part.
If you travel on our rail system for longer distances you'll notice that half the train is virtually empty and reserved for 1st class tickets.
If you usually travel in the rest of the train and get one of those tickets it's amazing how isolated from the general problems caused by this system you are.
Yes - the private school system has advantages; they actually aren't in the level of education, but in the connections that people make along the way, in a way it's a very small taste of how corrupt the system is.
There are of course disadvantages to "private schools" (called public schools in the UK for historical reasons), there is a real hierarchy and bullying based on how rich you are, it all enforces the class system that we have.
Lord of the flies was not a commentary on what happens when children are left on an island, but directly on what happens when pupils of that private educations system "public schools" of the UK, are left on an island.
Right now we have a government that is full of exactly that type of person - it's worked out very badly, why on earth would we want more of that sort of thing ?
I actually think in general private schools are better too. I have a child and I will not be sending them to public school and am considering the other options including private school, homeschool and unschooling.
And even then, I make room for others to have different opinions on this. And I'm open to my opinion being changed as well.
I asked the OP the question because I'm interested in the reasons why they think it is better. They seem to have a lot of expertise or at least experience in this domain so I thought their answer would be educational and inform my search for alternatives.
You're reading so much into a simple question that does not connote any sentiment or opinion about one way or the other. But go ahead and continue being absolutely baffled by the conclusions you leap to.