Like a compromise between an ergo board and a data hand.
The motivation for this sounds convincing. My problem is that I’m not willing or able to put the time into learning a new layout, with or without a chording aspect.
I tried it to a lesser extent (Keyboardio 100) and stuck with it just long enough to determine it would be great if I never used any other computers with a standard keyboard. After 2 weeks I could barely even type on my laptop anymore - I just couldn't hold both layouts in my head. Numbers, punctuation, and special keys were completely different; even though letters were "the same" they moved enough I was making a ton of typos.
I came to the conclusion I wasn't willing to buy an additional keyboard for my work computer and give up my laptop so I ended up selling it.
I had a similar experience after switching to DVORAK as a nerdy teenager, however I found by just leaving my smartphone on QWERTY, I'm able to switch and still type 40 - 50wpm with minimal practice on a real keyboard. I'm more like 100wpm on DVORAK.
Practicing both layouts a little may make it possible to keep both modes in your head, but I don't know if a completely different input mode would make this harder.
I did not have the same experience with the keyboardio (model 01 in my case).
Not only did I not have trouble going back to a standard keyboard, but even after not touching the keyboardio for months, my muscle memory remained intact. Even the custom shortcuts I had set up remained in my memory. I was really impressed by that.
The only reason I'm not using that keyboard fulltime is that the keys kindof "stuck" where they become hard to press down. It's too bad because I really like the keyboard a lot! Unfortunately the model 01 does not have hot swappable switches.
I did switch out my switches for something clackier, and when I did I ended up pulling up some traces on the PCB. I was able to patch it with some jumper wire, but really don't want to risk it again to take the switches off and lube them. Bummer, because it's a fantastic keyboard otherwise.
Interesting. I switched to a custom ergo layout (ZSA Moonlander) but my traditional QWERTY laptops are sufficiently different that I have no problems going back and forth between that and my desktops.
A couple of years ago I wanted to switch to an Ortholiner. I used magic keyboards until then. During the first weeks I actually realized that I never used my ten fingers. I was reasonable fast but my hands where more moving over the keyboard like a piano player. So I went one step back and bought a normal Lay-out mechanical keyboard and started to learn the proper 10 finger touch typing through several websites. I‘m still not mega fast but depending on the things I write I can be quite fast. While learning this and also tinkering with my keyboard firmware to add more comfortable shortcuts etc I lost the ability to write fast on my macbook keyboard. Every now and then when I have to use it, I slip into the old typing style. But it doesn’t feel as good anymore. I‘m on the same side here and would be very conservative with my time to spend it on this very special gear. And I only spend time and money on the normal QWERTY board :)
I think this is a super cool keyboard, but if I were going to learn a chorded keyboard, I'd probably go all in on the type steganographers use to type 300 WPM
Stenography is pretty difficult. It's more complicated than simply "chorded keyboard" might imply.
Going "all in" on stenography is a very significant time investment. Much more than what you'd think.
It's not like a normal keyboard where when you start you're just slow, but you know how to type every word. You won't even know how to type syllables/words that you haven't learned yet.
I've had a couple of tries but never got past the beginner stage, and there's many, many words that I have no idea how to type.
What would be really interesting would be a keyboard specifically for programming. Chords that can be customized to fit your language, would make a lot of sense. Integrate some ideas from things like Paraedit et al, and you could probably get up to crazy speeds in editing and writing really quickly.
I don't really think it's fair to call it a chorded keyboard. It does have chords, but they are mostly optional and there for convenience.
Every alpha letter has it's own key. Some are on a second layer, but that layer is also "one-shot" so you don't even need to chord to use it, like you do with typing capital letters with shift, for instance.
No concave key wells kills it (and the Fulcrum) for me. The only folks who really know how to nail ergo are Kinesis and maybe MoErgo (though I still haven't seen it shipped).
The staggering is way too small for my hands. The hand will still have to move a lot, making touch typing harder.
I'd also say that the simpler learning curve here is a "faster horse". To reap the significant benefits, one should embrace a different paradigm of typing, with layers and chords.
I’m super happy to see more products popping up in this category. However that looks terrible to type on though. Flat, low and barely any stagger. Also it kind of looks like a toaster. Idk. Not for me I guess, hehe. But still, a good sign!
I have a Kinesis Advantage 2 and the thumb clusters are my favorite part. I think I probably spend too much time optimizing the layout of those keys though. Like, Escape is really awkwardly placed in the default layout so I moved it to the right thumb cluster, but I was actually just thinking about moving it to the left cluster. Talk about micro-optimizations!
There’s also the hold/tap key thing where you don’t have to move the key physically. Between that and layers the keyboard is an infinite canvas for customizations.
I played around with different tap&hold durations (how long you have to hold before it registers as a hold rather than a tap), but I just couldn't find a duration that matched my rhythm. I kept getting holds when I wanted taps (for short durations) or vice versa for longer durations. My current config uses tap&hold on two keys (home and end, which I don't use often anyway). Holding leads to "hyper" and "meh" which are two extra modifier keys (like control or alt/option/meta). I'm an emacs user so extra modifiers means I can basically store as many macros as I want!
The default Kinesis firmware is fairly limited. It has what they call tap&hold, but it is too limited to be useful in practice. So, it’s mostly limited to simple remaps and macros. That does have the advantage that you don’t fall in the customization rabbit hole.
That said, I made a KinT controller for my advantage, so that I can run QMK.
I have a keyboard with thumb clusters as well and more than micro-optimizations I see it as iterations until you find something that really suits your style :)
Hyper optimized HIDs are a fascinating curiosity to me. I feel like a lot of the time they’re meant to fulfill a daydream of optimization that oftentimes never gets realized.
It’s like stenography, the cost of deviating from the norm is high but very valuable for specific use cases.
Or maybe I’m just projecting my Jr. Engineer days where I spent silly amounts of time optimizing my text editor with dreams of it making me one with my computer.
> fulfill a daydream of optimization that oftentimes never gets realized
with so many things, creating something like this maybe you start like that but end up realizing you just wanted to express yourself. challenging the norm is a given and popularity is just a plus.
1. On the one hand, yes. It can be very idealistic. You might imagine that you will achieve a new level of productivity where you will look down on your previous level and think: “How did I ever get anything done down there?”
2. Computer input optimization often gets derided with some variation on the “my typing speed is not the bottleneck when writing code”. But first of all, productivity in the immediate sense might not be the point: the point might be ergonomics and health. And it sounds silly to get health issues by just sitting and typing stuff and yet… well, it does happen a lot, apparently.[1]
I have done some optimizations with regards to my keyboard but the holy grail for me (I feel like) is stenography (which you mentioned). But I fear that I’m not the kind of person that could devote something like on average 30 minutes a day for multiple months to that.
3. Things like optimizing my setup is what makes me excited. So if I can keep my idealism in check then the journey itself will have been worth the effort.
[1] You’re screwed either way: if you’re in a physical profession (a “trade”) you wear your body out. If you are in an office job you either don’t use your body enough, get some kind of ergonomic problem, or get burnout from being too much in your head.
I daydream sometimes of a day where someone manages to optimize keyboard input all the way down to just a few switches without making it too difficult to transition from QWERTY.
That is the dawn of seriously practical wearable computers. I think it would be a far bigger leap than smartphones ever were.
We already have mobile versions of every other computer interface without much, if any, compromise... except the darn keyboard.
The transition is the hard part for sure. I love reading about all this cool layout stuff, and it makes total sense for people who speed-type as part of their job (eg stenographers) or have some disability that precludes QWERTY usage. But for the vast majority of people (eg anyone who will be put into a situation where they will have to type on some keyboard that isn’t theirs more than once every two years) a non-QWERTY interface is not worth the investment.
I totally agree with you in theory but for this specific board, can tell you that it improved my typing speed ~10wpm, and completely eliminated my RSI issues.
When I say I had major RSI issues, I mean I once had to spend 6 weeks typing with only my left hand bc the right hurt so bad. So it was worth it just for getting rid of that.
But in general I totally agree with you. I think about that a lot when optimizing like VSCode settings, for example. Like "this isn't really productive work here. it just feels like it."
Ya this is exactly the kind of bike shedding I get wrapped up in sometimes. Lately I have been creating custom shelving and storage in my office for a clean look and better optimization for lighting, camera, and sound.
I realize I could be working on real work when I do this, but I enjoy it and I find it to be a needed break from real work as well as actually engender a bit more excitement in myself to get back to work.
Its nice to enjoy optimizations that you have worked on and implemented yourself.
I love the idea. Reminds me that I've always wondered why nobody ever made a keyboard with analog joysticks for your thumbs. Feels like keyboard design has stagnated because they reached a local maxima for being good enough decades ago.
That's not the reason at all, the typical modern keyboard is just about exclusively driven by legacy compatibility. The keys are still in the exact same layout that was dictated by the mechanical design of typewriters centuries ago for fucks sake. Does anything still use the "pause" button? Why would anyone ever want to lock the numpad? Why are like half of the keys duplicated? These are real questions we should be asking.
The real problem is that people have gotten used to something that barely worked, who then got catered to by manufacturers which lead to new people learning that same layout, perpetuating the same design into infinity because nobody wants to relearn typing. Driving cars with a wheel and pedals probably isn't optimal either, but it's all anyone ever learns to use so that's what ubiquitous. Language is the same.
that's why it's so absolutely nuts that smartphone keyboards are just touchscreen versions of legacy keyboards.
If there is any place absolutely ripe for new innovation and optimizations, it's there. But there are hardly any significantly-different options! (at least on iphone, can't speak to Android)
Like, why can't I set my keyboard to delete the last word when I swipe left across the keyboard? There are a million low-hanging fruit things like that.
Belkin made the Nostromo, which I had and used for AutoCAD. I sold it, and then I bought a Razer Nostromo later in 2013/14. They both had analog joysticks, or the plus-sign multi-switch on Nintendo devices. It had a thumbstick you could remove to use the plus-pad config.
I like the Nostromo and the follow-up versions and I have one of them. I just wish there was a full keyboard version of it and the joystick is a 4-way (8-way?) hat switch, not analog.
However this seems to be impossible to find. I can easily find any combination of any two of these, but not all three. Then if you start about thinking wireless on top - forget about it.
On the other hand every week I see another one of these wildly impractical keyboards that people are making (and in fairness I've also constructed one - although I can't justify actually using it). Just feels bad man.
Depends on what you put under "ergonomic", but you could take a look at the Ultimate Hacking keyboard: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ (split, ISO layout & mechanical switches, not wireless however).
I think you’d really like the Dygma Raise. https://dygma.com/
It sounds like what you’ve described.
My daily driver is RGBKB Sol3 and I love it more than a person should love a keyboard. https://www.rgbkb.net/products/sol-3-keyboard-prebuilt
I went deep on keyboards but didn’t go the super minimalist route that I see get posted often. I type at 120wpm+ on QWERTY so “typing faster” was never the issue, just wanted to minimize pain.
It has been few years since I looked at ErgoDox last time there was no support for anything but ANSI layout and I get that most of these are US based creations so naturally US ANSI is the primary layout to support, I just can't justify unlearning my own layout since I have to maintain a fleet of computers and don't want to be reliant on carrying my custom keyboard with me.
Readit News
The motivation for this sounds convincing. My problem is that I’m not willing or able to put the time into learning a new layout, with or without a chording aspect.
I came to the conclusion I wasn't willing to buy an additional keyboard for my work computer and give up my laptop so I ended up selling it.
Practicing both layouts a little may make it possible to keep both modes in your head, but I don't know if a completely different input mode would make this harder.
Not only did I not have trouble going back to a standard keyboard, but even after not touching the keyboardio for months, my muscle memory remained intact. Even the custom shortcuts I had set up remained in my memory. I was really impressed by that.
The only reason I'm not using that keyboard fulltime is that the keys kindof "stuck" where they become hard to press down. It's too bad because I really like the keyboard a lot! Unfortunately the model 01 does not have hot swappable switches.
I did switch out my switches for something clackier, and when I did I ended up pulling up some traces on the PCB. I was able to patch it with some jumper wire, but really don't want to risk it again to take the switches off and lube them. Bummer, because it's a fantastic keyboard otherwise.
Though... how often are you using other peoples keyboards? I hear this complaint a lot and I wonder about it.
Going "all in" on stenography is a very significant time investment. Much more than what you'd think.
It's not like a normal keyboard where when you start you're just slow, but you know how to type every word. You won't even know how to type syllables/words that you haven't learned yet.
I've had a couple of tries but never got past the beginner stage, and there's many, many words that I have no idea how to type.
What would be really interesting would be a keyboard specifically for programming. Chords that can be customized to fit your language, would make a lot of sense. Integrate some ideas from things like Paraedit et al, and you could probably get up to crazy speeds in editing and writing really quickly.
Every alpha letter has it's own key. Some are on a second layer, but that layer is also "one-shot" so you don't even need to chord to use it, like you do with typing capital letters with shift, for instance.
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1. https://naya.tech/
https://kinesis-ergo.com/products/
https://www.moergo.com/
I'd also say that the simpler learning curve here is a "faster horse". To reap the significant benefits, one should embrace a different paradigm of typing, with layers and chords.
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There’s also the hold/tap key thing where you don’t have to move the key physically. Between that and layers the keyboard is an infinite canvas for customizations.
That said, I made a KinT controller for my advantage, so that I can run QMK.
It’s like stenography, the cost of deviating from the norm is high but very valuable for specific use cases.
Or maybe I’m just projecting my Jr. Engineer days where I spent silly amounts of time optimizing my text editor with dreams of it making me one with my computer.
with so many things, creating something like this maybe you start like that but end up realizing you just wanted to express yourself. challenging the norm is a given and popularity is just a plus.
1. On the one hand, yes. It can be very idealistic. You might imagine that you will achieve a new level of productivity where you will look down on your previous level and think: “How did I ever get anything done down there?”
2. Computer input optimization often gets derided with some variation on the “my typing speed is not the bottleneck when writing code”. But first of all, productivity in the immediate sense might not be the point: the point might be ergonomics and health. And it sounds silly to get health issues by just sitting and typing stuff and yet… well, it does happen a lot, apparently.[1]
I have done some optimizations with regards to my keyboard but the holy grail for me (I feel like) is stenography (which you mentioned). But I fear that I’m not the kind of person that could devote something like on average 30 minutes a day for multiple months to that.
3. Things like optimizing my setup is what makes me excited. So if I can keep my idealism in check then the journey itself will have been worth the effort.
[1] You’re screwed either way: if you’re in a physical profession (a “trade”) you wear your body out. If you are in an office job you either don’t use your body enough, get some kind of ergonomic problem, or get burnout from being too much in your head.
That is the dawn of seriously practical wearable computers. I think it would be a far bigger leap than smartphones ever were.
We already have mobile versions of every other computer interface without much, if any, compromise... except the darn keyboard.
When I say I had major RSI issues, I mean I once had to spend 6 weeks typing with only my left hand bc the right hurt so bad. So it was worth it just for getting rid of that.
But in general I totally agree with you. I think about that a lot when optimizing like VSCode settings, for example. Like "this isn't really productive work here. it just feels like it."
I realize I could be working on real work when I do this, but I enjoy it and I find it to be a needed break from real work as well as actually engender a bit more excitement in myself to get back to work.
Its nice to enjoy optimizations that you have worked on and implemented yourself.
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The real problem is that people have gotten used to something that barely worked, who then got catered to by manufacturers which lead to new people learning that same layout, perpetuating the same design into infinity because nobody wants to relearn typing. Driving cars with a wheel and pedals probably isn't optimal either, but it's all anyone ever learns to use so that's what ubiquitous. Language is the same.
If there is any place absolutely ripe for new innovation and optimizations, it's there. But there are hardly any significantly-different options! (at least on iphone, can't speak to Android)
Like, why can't I set my keyboard to delete the last word when I swipe left across the keyboard? There are a million low-hanging fruit things like that.
That’s what the IBM TrackPoint is, basically. And, to a lesser extent, trackpads. Only one per keyboard, though.
- ergonomic split design
- ISO layout
- mechanical switches
However this seems to be impossible to find. I can easily find any combination of any two of these, but not all three. Then if you start about thinking wireless on top - forget about it.
On the other hand every week I see another one of these wildly impractical keyboards that people are making (and in fairness I've also constructed one - although I can't justify actually using it). Just feels bad man.
I don’t really care about typing speed since I don’t write books or documentation for living
https://mistelkeyboard.com/products/d11cf7a73da49468e2a530b4...