For those who are desperate to draw a link between vaccines and heart attacks, this article essentially says the opposite of that. While the paper itself doesn't differentiate between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, it does contain a graph showing a state-by-state breakdown of acute myocardial infarction (AMI)-associated deaths:
It's difficult to draw conclusions because first graph is not the delta in deaths, just total deaths. and southern states have always had a high cardiovascular mortality.
I guess the bigger question that I often have is why the rush to completely rule out vaccines? Whenever this discussion comes up, its either complete blame or zero blame. How about investigate it like any other factor with the help of proper data? After all, it's the biggest change that young people have experienced that coincides with what authors note. Has there been any other huge lifestyle or external change for younger people? The other is staying indoors and not spending time outside. That could lead to lower activity levels and more stress. I can't think of many others, apart from covid itself.
It would be the right thing to do to explore it as a causal factor with cool heads. It's not impossible is it? What if it actually is leading to huge risk and we refuse to learn about it until 10 years later because we must not talk ill about vaccines?
In my own case, I had significant cardiovascular issues at a relatively young age, 1 week after I got my booster. They are simply not collecting this kind of data at a large scale to draw meaningful conclusions either way because the whole vaccine discussion is so charged. My doctor said he doesn't know if it's common enough because they are not instructed to collect this information. For me, even though it's anecdotal, the severity of my incident so close to the booster, without having any other history obviously makes me consider it as the #1 factor, not anything else.
> I guess the bigger question that I often have is why the rush to completely rule out vaccines?
I don't believe that anyone has completely ruled out vaccines. I think that's a boogeyman conspiracy theorists tell each other "The possible risks from vaccines are forbidden from being considered or talked about!". It's attractive to conspiracy minded people to have secret suppressed information that "they" don't want you know about, but it just isn't real. Wild speculation without evidence intended to spread fear and vaccine hesitancy is what gets suppressed, and for good reason.
What we know is that covid infection itself increases the risk of heart problems and blood clots in everyone and that not taking the vaccine increases the odds of death, severe illness, and overwhelmed hospitals, along with disruptions in society and the economy. Right now, all the evidence we have says getting a covid vaccine is the smart choice, but nobody actually thinks that there's zero chance of unexpected side effects from these vaccines and nobody is ignoring that possibility or forbidding people from "asking questions". Spreading lies and FUD on the other hand isn't and shouldn't be well received.
You should report this to VAERS if you’re in the US and it hasn’t been reported already. Indicate the batch number, which should be written on your vaccine card.
I’ve had four Pfizer shots. For three shots, the side effects were mild. But after one, I had chest pains for about a week. It turns out that shot was from a batch with many cases of serious illness and several deaths reported on VAERS. The other batches had almost no reports. It could be a coincidence, but the more data they have the better.
> I guess the bigger question that I often have is why the rush to completely rule out vaccines? Whenever this discussion comes up, its either complete blame or zero blame.
All the evidence I've seen is that the adverse cardiovascular issues seen rarely as a side effect of the vaccine are a direct result of circulating coronavirus spike protein in the blood stream. You know what causes way more spike protein to circulate in the blood stream, literally by several orders of magnitude over the course of an entire infection? Getting COVID, of course.
So if you're a mountain hermit who's never going to be exposed to COVID, then you shouldn't get the vaccine. Anyone else who even occasionally goes out in society and sees people face to face benefits from it though.
In this study, the authors analyzed 4 time periods, the first 2 of which were before vaccines were even available. For different age groups, the increase was identified in all 4 periods:
Are you kidding? The vaccines are the most politicised issue of the last 10 years. With the left and right wing media bating their respective audiences with dehumanising terms like 'antivaxxers' and 'face-diaper people', our society became incredibly tribalised on this issue.
Whether the vaccines are or are not to blame, good luck getting any social consensus. This is akin to religion now.
Any fact that would lead to the conclusion that there was a deliberate campaign of organized malice by large groups of people especially in government agencies is false because the conclusion is always false. Also, obedience and compliance with government dictates is always rewarded. Any fact leading to the conclusion that that is not the case is always false.
The proper way to determine the truth is to determine first what are alway false conclusions and then rule out the facts that would lead to those conclusions regardless of the evidence.
Exactly, it's not 'desperate to link them to vaccines,' but that it is 'desperate to find any reason at all before even looking at vaccines.'
Considering the distrust of both Pharma and government (both sides) that preceded the vaccines and the 'heart attack' issue, it is quite astonishing the level of support seen for dismissal of them possibly causing anything. And especially as they're a novel vaccine.
I don't mean to accept it's the cause here, I mean even the thought of genuinely investigating it.
They were just introduced on a broad scale, so rushing to rule them out is only natural, as they are something it would be reasonable to suspect of causing this. You after all rule out likely suspects first.
The only thing thing besides the vaccines that come to mind having caused this is widespread lifestyle changes society wide as well as the most overwhelmingly obvious reason this trend might be happening which is that we just got hit by a major pandemic that causes heart attacks.
> I guess the bigger question that I often have is why the rush to completely rule out vaccines?
Because antivaxxers don't want to have a nuanced discussion of pro and cons of any vaccine. This iteration is "mRNA is new so it's bad". But it's always been the same and ends with "vaccine is bad" for them. It's not possible to bring a reasonable discussion to someone who will happily throw out reason to accept their own preconceived conclusions.
> In my own case, I had significant cardiovascular issues at a relatively young age, 1 week after I got my booster.
Even before the vaccine, it was clear that covid triggers cardio events in some people, even young. Even three years in, it's not clear why that is. So it's plausible that a vaccine's spike protine could trigger an event, above the background level. The question then is, does the vaccine trigger cardio events at a higher or lower rate than getting covid?
> I guess the bigger question that I often have is why the rush to completely rule out vaccines?
> They are simply not collecting this kind of data at a large scale to draw meaningful conclusions either way because the whole vaccine discussion is so charged.
I think you partially answered your own question: if a causative link is found, they're scared about what may happen to themselves/people who pushed the vaccines, given how many people have taken them.
> In my own case, I had significant cardiovascular issues at a relatively young age, 1 week after I got my booster.
The vaccine is only a part of the virus right (the spike protein)? Yes for you it’s likely the cause, your experience regarding data collection might be anecdotal because there are growing evidence regarding myocarditis following the vaccine for example.
What is usually missed is that you and people responding like this would have been far worse with the virus alone, because you only got exposed to a fraction of it. The virus is known to cause significant cardiovascular damage (orders of magnitude more than the vaccine in healthy young adults), so it seems not that relevant to focus only on the vaccine at that point in the study.
If you group the population into only 2 groups: all of the vaccinated and all the unvaccinated, regardless of age; then the vaccinated had a higher death toll.
But age is a hidden factor. The older have more risks and are more vaccinated.
If you group by vaccination AND by age bracket, the opposite happens. For example, the 60 to 65 vaccinated have a lower death rate than the 60 to 65 unvaccinated.
Just so I understand what you're saying, it sounds to me like covid is killing old people and something else is killing everyone else at a higher rate, correlating with vaccination status?
So only old people and high risk individuals should've gotten the vaccine?
Vaccines in general is probably one of the most important discoveries of modern science but i find it quite bizarre that people put so much trust into a very unique fasttracked process and pharma companies that have a very visible history of deception and fraud.
7 pharma companies got "reprimanded" by the EU after the last 2010 flu pandemic because of astroturfing and "using a crisis to profit from vaccines" that the EU didn't need.
Personally, though double vaxxed, i'm still not convinced the vaccines were a net positive - especially for the sub 60 cohort when looking at the actual stats - the risks are higher from the myocarditis than from actual Covid, at least in the younger pop.
> especially for the sub 60 cohort when looking at the actual stats
Right, I'm going to call bullshit on this. If you're going to make incredible claims like this on HN against all scientific orthodoxy, you have to show your workings.
What is the risk of myocarditis from the vaccines in under-60s?
What was the unvaccinated fatality rate for under-60s?
I've been vaccinated and don't regret that because in those circumstances, they were a positive health choice. But it's impossible to know the long-term impact of any medicine unless you've actually studied it, well, long-term.
In 5 years, the vaccines might be death in a vial. Or they might be completely benign. You'll only know after 5 years.
It's because they've been among the most successful medical treatment in history. For example, smallpox alone killed up to half a billion people in the 20th C and we managed to eradicate it.
> In 5 years, the vaccines might be death in a vial. Or they might be completely benign. You'll only know after 5 years.
This isn't how biology works. You don't just have drugs that set off a timer with a trigger that suddenly kills you 5 years later. If something is doing bad things to you then you start getting adverse effects far sooner than that.
We've given billions of doses of these vaccines out. We have an excellent idea of the side-effects they cause, and they're generally extremely safe.
It’s more that the claims are very confidently and loudly made by the same people who were wrong about the severity and spread of the virus, possible treatments, and made provably false claims about the vaccines, often for financial or political profit.
It’s certainly possible that there will be some long-term problem that only becomes apparent after a considerable period of time but there isn’t a known mechanism for that, and if that is identified it’ll be due to the actual scientists who are carefully studying it rather than the people trying the old conman’s trick of making enough vague claims that they’ll be able to say they predicted the future.
Stop spreading these right wing anti-vaxxer lies, my god. "Death in a vial". Dont you feel ashamed and ridiculous posting this insane over-the-top inflammatory rhetoric?
People are already discussing the science and long term effects and few people just take the vaccines at face value.
And to add to your harmful, conscious spread of disinformation, you thinly veil it in "I am vaccinated myself, but..."
I have to say that's a pretty good trick to never have to do anything. Like I should probably take out the trash, but who knows, I might get killed by a car veering off the road while I put it out. Or sure I'd go to the gym, but I might get killed by a weight falling off a machine or something; better not to risk it. I'll probably be using this is in the future.
Let’s pretend there was a statistically significant relation to heart attacks with the mRNA vaccines. I would imagine that the risk of a heart attack would be far greater with worse outcomes if you got infected with COVID unvaccinated.
I also understand why the authorities are adamant about there being no link to heart attacks and vaccines given all the pushback against vaccines. However, it also worrying to see science take a backseat to politics.
For disclosure, I’m fully vaccinated with booster, and I am a proponent of vaccination. However, I’m not going to ignore research and data just because it doesn’t match my views. It really annoys me that the mainstream media treats the increased likelihood of myocarditis as a conspiracy theory. All this will do is further undermine public trust in public institutions. It wasn’t that long ago when public officials ridiculed the need for masks in order to secretly help preserve PPE supplies for healthcare workers
Fauci told CNN, “The thing that has inhibited that a bit is to make sure that we don’t take away the supply of masks from the health care workers who need them,” he continued. “But once we get in a situation where we have enough masks, I believe there will be some very serious consideration about more broadening this recommendation of using masks.”
> However, it also worrying to see science take a backseat to politics.
It's not politics directly, it's lying and all the "whoopsies".
I live in slovenia, so there was no trump vs others here.
When I got vaccinated we had four kinds of vaccines (J&J, astrazeneca, pfeizer and moderna... if you got vacicnated abroad, also sputnik). All those vaccines were said to prevent getting a symptomatic covid infection and also prevent the spread.
Then slowly three out of those four got cancelled here, because they caused issues here and abroad and in case of J&J, even killed a young girl here. Every time one of them got removed, the rest were "completely safe"... first astrazeneca, but the others were good, then J&J killed a girl, but moderna and pfizer are safe, then moderna went away, but pfeizer was safe... it was just a matter of time when something "safe" was an "whoops, it's not safe, but the others are". Also the "prevent symptomatic infection and spread" was somehing stalined-away and "prevent severe illness" appeared.
I understand the need for fast action, but most of the anti-covid measures (limited and forbidden stuff, also stuff that needed you to be vaccinated to do) were targeted towards young people... old people need a local grocery store and a doctor... young people need clubs, bars, restaurants, party locations etc. (not to mention in person schools). So young people, who generally didnt die in any significant numbers (compared to traffic accidents and suicides) got the most of the damage, and old people didn't need to get vaccinated at all, because the measures didn't affect them.
Basically, the whole handling of covid, the lies, the wrong priorities, and the "whoopsies" have destroyed the trust in science, scientists and other authorities for many many years.
Comparing states is fallacious because there are so many confounding factors. The lowest vaccinated states, in the Bible Belt, are highest for almost all health conditions. People in those states are less healthy period. One cannot draw conclusions that way.
It's disturbing how eager people here are to jump on "vaccines are bad" or "why isn't anybody talking about vaccines bad sides". The side effects of vaccines and Covid have been under heavy scrutiny from the very first day. Where in the fuck are you people getting your news and what are you doing on HN?
I get my "news" on vaccines from PubMed, the Lancet, the BMJ, etc. All such sources show at best disagreement over safety, at worst, unsafe.
It's not hyperbolic, deranged, or lacking in intellect to be concerned by this.
For example, a recently submitted study out of NZ, done by the NZ Ministry of Health, exhibited a clear indication of yet another side effect: kidney disease, along with reconfirming myocarditis etc.
The rates again suggested that younger people and repeated boosting is likely a bad idea.
There is going to be selection bias for articles like this. Who is more interested in the cause of increased heart attacks in the young? Who will most likely comment on their concern.
Once you adjust your priors things start making more sense :)
> For those who are desperate to draw a link between vaccines and heart attacks
I have problems with that argument. If the claim is that the coronavirus spike protein from vaccines causes heart attacks, then surely the coronavirus spike protein from an actual coronavirus infection will cause even more heart attacks. How have they been able to bypass this logical problem?
According to my neighbor who is an ER doc, the spike protein stays in your system a lot longer than it does after natural infection. Unfortunately I can't find a reference for this claim, and the worst part is that I don't know if that's because my Google fu is lacking or if this information is being suppressed...
Tho whole pandemic was founded on the base of death count, where every death of a person who tested positive for covid was counted as covid death. That is a fact.
To level the field, we should count every death of a person who took the experimental gene therapy as death due to the said therapy.
The only difference is the propaganda machine, sorry, media, was spreading the unjustified panic about the former and is dead silent about the latter.
I think the disease does draw a link. I don't find it particularly surprising that after 2 years of a stay-at-home order infarcts of all kinds are going up.
What if this is just due to people on average being the fattest and most stressed out they've ever been? Being inside for a few years didn't help everyone physically.
Obesity has been trending up even before the pandemic. I don't see how driving through stressful traffic for 60-120+ minutes per day and eating restaurant food is supposed to make anyone healthier. In my personal experience, the pandemic led me to build a home gym and prepare my own food, both of which have seem to have led to better health both "objectively" (weight, cholesterol, CRP, VO2max) and subjectively (how I "feel").
> In my personal experience, the pandemic led me to build a home gym and prepare my own food, both of which have seem to have led to better health both "objectively" (weight, cholesterol, CRP, VO2max) and subjectively (how I "feel").
Yeah, I doubt this applies to majority of office workers, majority of people just stopped moving while WFH and get fatter, so obviously their physical condition deteroriated vax/COVID or not.
I gained about 20 pounds during the first 2 years of the pandemic. I was stressed and depressed being locked down, especially during those awful winters.
Since early 2022 when things began to normalize I have lost 10 pounds.
Correct. Sitting at home absolutely destroyed my health. I got a cervical disc bulge, gained nearly 10kgs in weight, had weird pains and aches in random body spots. It's the worst I've felt in ever.
On a normal day during the pandemic, I would get like 1500 steps in. Before the pandemic, walking to/from the metro alone would take up nearly 8k steps. Total would easily be 12k+ steps.
It was a drastic reduction in activity. I attribute all my current health problems to it.
As someone that got COVID in March 2020, and was pretty active before.
It took some time to recover, but I continued getting exercise, despite being a studio apartment dweller.
But after a shook COVID, I stopped listening to the news and government that said going outside was dangerous and got my walking in and continued to go out for fresh air.
I have fully recovered from COVID, and have actually lost weight (food got more expensive, my income did not go up to cover that).
I can understand how some people worked from home and got fat eating good food, but I also understand these things were choices. I choose to exercise. I choose to eat less healthy food instead of eating cheap crap.
I choose to think about my health, and put in the work to be healthy.
For me, COVID was an opportunity to control my health, and it seems like others suffered by failing to do so and following the media and masses.
I think I made the right choice. Do you have any regrets about your choices? Or do you think COVID was just a bad thing that happened to you and you had no control?
Obesity and lack of exercise are long-term risk factors that hit later in life. Not at 25-44 (maybe in the late 30s/40s). Haven't looked at the exact data but there might be something else driving this.
It’s not about the obesity, it’s about the metabolic disease. We have T2 diabetic children with human foie gras. Why? Because of the standard American diet, accurately named SAD.
Correct, I'm pretty sure the trend was same, the question now is whether it's accelerated in most vaxxed nations compared to least vaxxed nations, then you can draw conclusion whether it's caused by COVID or vax, if it accelerated since 2021.
Shortcut for reading these comments: if anyone says "conspiracy theory" or "anti-vaxxer" you can stop reading them right away. They're just ideological warriors.
Being scientists, we can design a longitudinal test (of these two groups, identical otherwise, one vax'ed and one not, did the vax'ed have more side effects?) that answers the risk question pretty definitely. Then all the data people trot out can just be examined with, "Is this as good as that test?"
It seems rather clear that the governments of the world, in responding to a perceived emergency, cut some corners. You could argue this was a responsible thing to do. It would also be responsible to start being honest about it.
Currently doctor questionarre has "do you smoke?" yes/no. If you vape or using stuff like iqos, it's "no". Available answers should expand from boolean to list vaping/vaporizing products. Otherwise you'll see from analisis that non-smokers have problems, what if ie. iqos users are exposing themselves to 5x more nicotine or something else is happening that is problematic?
Many have gotten COVID, but not everyone got significantly, sick. Many have gotten the flu, yet only very few of us have died to it. Most of us survived all the various illnesses we have as children, but not all of us were so lucky.
What are you trying to imply? Is it really such a strange thought to you that not everyone will have the same symptoms, and not everyone will have similar kinds of damages?
Well doing your best not to catch it before there was a vaccine and then getting vaccinated will best improve your chances.
But I was more referring to everyone in this thread speculating about obesity, vaccines and everything other than the novel pandemic virus with the thrombotic complications that swept the globe that just MIGHT have something to do with the rise in heart attacks.
Which was pretty much predicted by anyone paying attention back in summer of 2020. And probably why people who recover from COVID have a higher mortality rate 18 months after infection:
Does anyone have link to the full text? (can't access from my institution)
I ask because they seem to point to covid but there are lots of other factors that need to be considered that are quite obviously causal. For example obesity is on the rise[0], including a ~5% between 1999 and 2019. I think it would be unsurprising to anyone that obesity increased in a period where we all shifted to online and that regular exercise decreased. Especially true for younger people who typically are more active than the other groups (which could correlate to the difference in age groups). Stress is another big factor and I think even excluding the pandemic stress in our country is on the rise and the pandemic made it way worse.
There's obviously many more factors like this and since I can't see if the paper attempts to account for these I'm asking if someone else can answer this. But if these are not answered (as the link suggests) this is quite reckless to just state that a temporal correlation equates to the virus being a causal factor and ironically may increase said risk through the aforementioned factors.
Heart attack deaths were steadily falling until the pandemic, over a period when obesity rose massively.
Obesity is linked to heart attacks but larger rises than could have happened in past three years didn’t cause a population level of heart attack deaths
The submitted article describes this study as “new” (and uses an incomplete headline as clickbait…), but it’s been public since September and was widely covered at that time. Here’s a more detailed article from October: https://scitechdaily.com/covid-19-surges-linked-to-spike-in-...
i've always wished someone did a study on the usage of cocaïne among politician and the impact it had on their policies. I suspect a lot of overreacting, impulsive and careless decisions were taken while under influence.
Affairs or secret gay lovers tends to make the politicians more vocal about "traditional family values" so I doubt any other "taboo" wouldnt generate the same hypocracy.
Nancy Regans "Just Say No" crusade could be because she was secretly hiding an addiction to Quaaludes and she didnt want anyone to notice.
glad you mention this. i have a similar concern about stimulant use at ivy league schools. it's not just about getting stuff done, like mowing a lawn. it impacts expectations of what people can tolerate.
Readit News
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/c0aed082-9f81-4a88...
Dark purple is a higher rate of death, light blue is lower.
A state-by-state graph of vaccination percentage is available here:
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/12/16/us/covid-19-vacci...
These graphs would indicate that the states with the lowest vaccination rates have the highest AMI mortality rates.
I guess the bigger question that I often have is why the rush to completely rule out vaccines? Whenever this discussion comes up, its either complete blame or zero blame. How about investigate it like any other factor with the help of proper data? After all, it's the biggest change that young people have experienced that coincides with what authors note. Has there been any other huge lifestyle or external change for younger people? The other is staying indoors and not spending time outside. That could lead to lower activity levels and more stress. I can't think of many others, apart from covid itself.
It would be the right thing to do to explore it as a causal factor with cool heads. It's not impossible is it? What if it actually is leading to huge risk and we refuse to learn about it until 10 years later because we must not talk ill about vaccines?
In my own case, I had significant cardiovascular issues at a relatively young age, 1 week after I got my booster. They are simply not collecting this kind of data at a large scale to draw meaningful conclusions either way because the whole vaccine discussion is so charged. My doctor said he doesn't know if it's common enough because they are not instructed to collect this information. For me, even though it's anecdotal, the severity of my incident so close to the booster, without having any other history obviously makes me consider it as the #1 factor, not anything else.
I don't believe that anyone has completely ruled out vaccines. I think that's a boogeyman conspiracy theorists tell each other "The possible risks from vaccines are forbidden from being considered or talked about!". It's attractive to conspiracy minded people to have secret suppressed information that "they" don't want you know about, but it just isn't real. Wild speculation without evidence intended to spread fear and vaccine hesitancy is what gets suppressed, and for good reason.
Meanwhile researchers are carefully keeping an eye on emerging evidence even when it's only preliminary (https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIR.0000000000001051) and the mass media, even the left leaning media, has zero problems reporting on what the research we have shows (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/moderna-shot-may-ca...).
What we know is that covid infection itself increases the risk of heart problems and blood clots in everyone and that not taking the vaccine increases the odds of death, severe illness, and overwhelmed hospitals, along with disruptions in society and the economy. Right now, all the evidence we have says getting a covid vaccine is the smart choice, but nobody actually thinks that there's zero chance of unexpected side effects from these vaccines and nobody is ignoring that possibility or forbidding people from "asking questions". Spreading lies and FUD on the other hand isn't and shouldn't be well received.
Some other countries are collecting this data, and it's not uncommon. Prospective studies (which compare cardiovascular health measurements of a cohort pre- and post-vaccine) show a myocarditis rate of around 0.1-1% in teenagers. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36602621/ https://www.mdpi.com/2414-6366/7/8/196 . Compared to no observable increase in the rate of myocarditis from covid infection itself: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9025013/
I’ve had four Pfizer shots. For three shots, the side effects were mild. But after one, I had chest pains for about a week. It turns out that shot was from a batch with many cases of serious illness and several deaths reported on VAERS. The other batches had almost no reports. It could be a coincidence, but the more data they have the better.
All the evidence I've seen is that the adverse cardiovascular issues seen rarely as a side effect of the vaccine are a direct result of circulating coronavirus spike protein in the blood stream. You know what causes way more spike protein to circulate in the blood stream, literally by several orders of magnitude over the course of an entire infection? Getting COVID, of course.
So if you're a mountain hermit who's never going to be exposed to COVID, then you shouldn't get the vaccine. Anyone else who even occasionally goes out in society and sees people face to face benefits from it though.
In this study, the authors analyzed 4 time periods, the first 2 of which were before vaccines were even available. For different age groups, the increase was identified in all 4 periods:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/t...
Are you kidding? The vaccines are the most politicised issue of the last 10 years. With the left and right wing media bating their respective audiences with dehumanising terms like 'antivaxxers' and 'face-diaper people', our society became incredibly tribalised on this issue.
Whether the vaccines are or are not to blame, good luck getting any social consensus. This is akin to religion now.
Any fact that would lead to the conclusion that there was a deliberate campaign of organized malice by large groups of people especially in government agencies is false because the conclusion is always false. Also, obedience and compliance with government dictates is always rewarded. Any fact leading to the conclusion that that is not the case is always false.
The proper way to determine the truth is to determine first what are alway false conclusions and then rule out the facts that would lead to those conclusions regardless of the evidence.
/poe's law
Considering the distrust of both Pharma and government (both sides) that preceded the vaccines and the 'heart attack' issue, it is quite astonishing the level of support seen for dismissal of them possibly causing anything. And especially as they're a novel vaccine.
I don't mean to accept it's the cause here, I mean even the thought of genuinely investigating it.
They were just introduced on a broad scale, so rushing to rule them out is only natural, as they are something it would be reasonable to suspect of causing this. You after all rule out likely suspects first.
The only thing thing besides the vaccines that come to mind having caused this is widespread lifestyle changes society wide as well as the most overwhelmingly obvious reason this trend might be happening which is that we just got hit by a major pandemic that causes heart attacks.
Because antivaxxers don't want to have a nuanced discussion of pro and cons of any vaccine. This iteration is "mRNA is new so it's bad". But it's always been the same and ends with "vaccine is bad" for them. It's not possible to bring a reasonable discussion to someone who will happily throw out reason to accept their own preconceived conclusions.
> In my own case, I had significant cardiovascular issues at a relatively young age, 1 week after I got my booster.
Even before the vaccine, it was clear that covid triggers cardio events in some people, even young. Even three years in, it's not clear why that is. So it's plausible that a vaccine's spike protine could trigger an event, above the background level. The question then is, does the vaccine trigger cardio events at a higher or lower rate than getting covid?
> They are simply not collecting this kind of data at a large scale to draw meaningful conclusions either way because the whole vaccine discussion is so charged.
I think you partially answered your own question: if a causative link is found, they're scared about what may happen to themselves/people who pushed the vaccines, given how many people have taken them.
Because it's a distraction from (in the deliberately misleading sense) the more relevant question: rule in or rule out the role of actual COVID-19.
The vaccine is only a part of the virus right (the spike protein)? Yes for you it’s likely the cause, your experience regarding data collection might be anecdotal because there are growing evidence regarding myocarditis following the vaccine for example.
What is usually missed is that you and people responding like this would have been far worse with the virus alone, because you only got exposed to a fraction of it. The virus is known to cause significant cardiovascular damage (orders of magnitude more than the vaccine in healthy young adults), so it seems not that relevant to focus only on the vaccine at that point in the study.
Dead Comment
https://babylonbee.com/news/experts-say-they-dont-know-what-...
If you group the population into only 2 groups: all of the vaccinated and all the unvaccinated, regardless of age; then the vaccinated had a higher death toll.
But age is a hidden factor. The older have more risks and are more vaccinated.
If you group by vaccination AND by age bracket, the opposite happens. For example, the 60 to 65 vaccinated have a lower death rate than the 60 to 65 unvaccinated.
So only old people and high risk individuals should've gotten the vaccine?
7 pharma companies got "reprimanded" by the EU after the last 2010 flu pandemic because of astroturfing and "using a crisis to profit from vaccines" that the EU didn't need.
Personally, though double vaxxed, i'm still not convinced the vaccines were a net positive - especially for the sub 60 cohort when looking at the actual stats - the risks are higher from the myocarditis than from actual Covid, at least in the younger pop.
Right, I'm going to call bullshit on this. If you're going to make incredible claims like this on HN against all scientific orthodoxy, you have to show your workings.
What is the risk of myocarditis from the vaccines in under-60s? What was the unvaccinated fatality rate for under-60s?
Cite your sources.
Dead Comment
I've been vaccinated and don't regret that because in those circumstances, they were a positive health choice. But it's impossible to know the long-term impact of any medicine unless you've actually studied it, well, long-term.
In 5 years, the vaccines might be death in a vial. Or they might be completely benign. You'll only know after 5 years.
It's because they've been among the most successful medical treatment in history. For example, smallpox alone killed up to half a billion people in the 20th C and we managed to eradicate it.
> In 5 years, the vaccines might be death in a vial. Or they might be completely benign. You'll only know after 5 years.
This isn't how biology works. You don't just have drugs that set off a timer with a trigger that suddenly kills you 5 years later. If something is doing bad things to you then you start getting adverse effects far sooner than that.
We've given billions of doses of these vaccines out. We have an excellent idea of the side-effects they cause, and they're generally extremely safe.
It’s certainly possible that there will be some long-term problem that only becomes apparent after a considerable period of time but there isn’t a known mechanism for that, and if that is identified it’ll be due to the actual scientists who are carefully studying it rather than the people trying the old conman’s trick of making enough vague claims that they’ll be able to say they predicted the future.
People are already discussing the science and long term effects and few people just take the vaccines at face value.
And to add to your harmful, conscious spread of disinformation, you thinly veil it in "I am vaccinated myself, but..."
> ... you'll only know after 5 years.
See above — that is simply not how vaccines work. Stop spreading misinformation.
I also understand why the authorities are adamant about there being no link to heart attacks and vaccines given all the pushback against vaccines. However, it also worrying to see science take a backseat to politics.
https://www.acc.org/About-ACC/Press-Releases/2022/11/07/18/5...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346
For disclosure, I’m fully vaccinated with booster, and I am a proponent of vaccination. However, I’m not going to ignore research and data just because it doesn’t match my views. It really annoys me that the mainstream media treats the increased likelihood of myocarditis as a conspiracy theory. All this will do is further undermine public trust in public institutions. It wasn’t that long ago when public officials ridiculed the need for masks in order to secretly help preserve PPE supplies for healthcare workers
Fauci told CNN, “The thing that has inhibited that a bit is to make sure that we don’t take away the supply of masks from the health care workers who need them,” he continued. “But once we get in a situation where we have enough masks, I believe there will be some very serious consideration about more broadening this recommendation of using masks.”
https://khn.org/morning-breakout/cdc-considers-shifting-guid...
It's not politics directly, it's lying and all the "whoopsies".
I live in slovenia, so there was no trump vs others here.
When I got vaccinated we had four kinds of vaccines (J&J, astrazeneca, pfeizer and moderna... if you got vacicnated abroad, also sputnik). All those vaccines were said to prevent getting a symptomatic covid infection and also prevent the spread.
Then slowly three out of those four got cancelled here, because they caused issues here and abroad and in case of J&J, even killed a young girl here. Every time one of them got removed, the rest were "completely safe"... first astrazeneca, but the others were good, then J&J killed a girl, but moderna and pfizer are safe, then moderna went away, but pfeizer was safe... it was just a matter of time when something "safe" was an "whoops, it's not safe, but the others are". Also the "prevent symptomatic infection and spread" was somehing stalined-away and "prevent severe illness" appeared.
I understand the need for fast action, but most of the anti-covid measures (limited and forbidden stuff, also stuff that needed you to be vaccinated to do) were targeted towards young people... old people need a local grocery store and a doctor... young people need clubs, bars, restaurants, party locations etc. (not to mention in person schools). So young people, who generally didnt die in any significant numbers (compared to traffic accidents and suicides) got the most of the damage, and old people didn't need to get vaccinated at all, because the measures didn't affect them.
Basically, the whole handling of covid, the lies, the wrong priorities, and the "whoopsies" have destroyed the trust in science, scientists and other authorities for many many years.
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I get my "news" on vaccines from PubMed, the Lancet, the BMJ, etc. All such sources show at best disagreement over safety, at worst, unsafe.
It's not hyperbolic, deranged, or lacking in intellect to be concerned by this.
For example, a recently submitted study out of NZ, done by the NZ Ministry of Health, exhibited a clear indication of yet another side effect: kidney disease, along with reconfirming myocarditis etc.
The rates again suggested that younger people and repeated boosting is likely a bad idea.
Once you adjust your priors things start making more sense :)
I have problems with that argument. If the claim is that the coronavirus spike protein from vaccines causes heart attacks, then surely the coronavirus spike protein from an actual coronavirus infection will cause even more heart attacks. How have they been able to bypass this logical problem?
To level the field, we should count every death of a person who took the experimental gene therapy as death due to the said therapy.
The only difference is the propaganda machine, sorry, media, was spreading the unjustified panic about the former and is dead silent about the latter.
Although the vaccine may well docthis, just to a much much lesser extent.
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Yeah, I doubt this applies to majority of office workers, majority of people just stopped moving while WFH and get fatter, so obviously their physical condition deteroriated vax/COVID or not.
Since early 2022 when things began to normalize I have lost 10 pounds.
On a normal day during the pandemic, I would get like 1500 steps in. Before the pandemic, walking to/from the metro alone would take up nearly 8k steps. Total would easily be 12k+ steps.
It was a drastic reduction in activity. I attribute all my current health problems to it.
It took some time to recover, but I continued getting exercise, despite being a studio apartment dweller.
But after a shook COVID, I stopped listening to the news and government that said going outside was dangerous and got my walking in and continued to go out for fresh air.
I have fully recovered from COVID, and have actually lost weight (food got more expensive, my income did not go up to cover that).
I can understand how some people worked from home and got fat eating good food, but I also understand these things were choices. I choose to exercise. I choose to eat less healthy food instead of eating cheap crap.
I choose to think about my health, and put in the work to be healthy.
For me, COVID was an opportunity to control my health, and it seems like others suffered by failing to do so and following the media and masses.
I think I made the right choice. Do you have any regrets about your choices? Or do you think COVID was just a bad thing that happened to you and you had no control?
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Being scientists, we can design a longitudinal test (of these two groups, identical otherwise, one vax'ed and one not, did the vax'ed have more side effects?) that answers the risk question pretty definitely. Then all the data people trot out can just be examined with, "Is this as good as that test?"
It seems rather clear that the governments of the world, in responding to a perceived emergency, cut some corners. You could argue this was a responsible thing to do. It would also be responsible to start being honest about it.
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This has been known since the relatively early days of the pandemic. Have any of you been paying any attention at all?
Have you thought about that at all?
What are you trying to imply? Is it really such a strange thought to you that not everyone will have the same symptoms, and not everyone will have similar kinds of damages?
But I was more referring to everyone in this thread speculating about obesity, vaccines and everything other than the novel pandemic virus with the thrombotic complications that swept the globe that just MIGHT have something to do with the rise in heart attacks.
Which was pretty much predicted by anyone paying attention back in summer of 2020. And probably why people who recover from COVID have a higher mortality rate 18 months after infection:
https://www.nursinginpractice.com/clinical/dermatology/covid...
I ask because they seem to point to covid but there are lots of other factors that need to be considered that are quite obviously causal. For example obesity is on the rise[0], including a ~5% between 1999 and 2019. I think it would be unsurprising to anyone that obesity increased in a period where we all shifted to online and that regular exercise decreased. Especially true for younger people who typically are more active than the other groups (which could correlate to the difference in age groups). Stress is another big factor and I think even excluding the pandemic stress in our country is on the rise and the pandemic made it way worse.
There's obviously many more factors like this and since I can't see if the paper attempts to account for these I'm asking if someone else can answer this. But if these are not answered (as the link suggests) this is quite reckless to just state that a temporal correlation equates to the virus being a causal factor and ironically may increase said risk through the aforementioned factors.
[0] https://www.tfah.org/report-details/state-of-obesity-2022/
Obesity is linked to heart attacks but larger rises than could have happened in past three years didn’t cause a population level of heart attack deaths
The submitted article describes this study as “new” (and uses an incomplete headline as clickbait…), but it’s been public since September and was widely covered at that time. Here’s a more detailed article from October: https://scitechdaily.com/covid-19-surges-linked-to-spike-in-...
> We’re living in the golden age of cocaine,” said Toby Muse, the author of the 2020 book Kilo: Inside the Deadliest Cocaine Cartels [...]
I'm sure both are unrelated coincidences (heart attacks and cocaine availability and the disappearsce of this article).
[1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/golden-age-cocaine-happening-...
[2] https://archive.is/05AY0
Nancy Regans "Just Say No" crusade could be because she was secretly hiding an addiction to Quaaludes and she didnt want anyone to notice.
edit: turns out she was ... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9471693/Nancy-Reaga...