So, Apple recently stopped supporting the last version of OS X that would run on a 2012 15" retina MacBook Pro. In case you missed it, this design was the last one influenced by Steve Jobs and was absolutely epic, untouchable for almost a decade, really not surpassed until the M1 MacBooks came out.
Polls are not supportedOdds of me getting away with not using OS X are slim to none. But, I do enjoy my old ThinkPads running Ubuntu and find myself wondering if there are any non-Lenovo options that are real contenders these days. Any recommended go-bys for set-up or feature selections would be especially appreciated. My quick review suggests the top choices are listed below, but of course write-ins are welcome.
- Fastest CPU + GPU + battery life, x64 not needed, money no object: M1 MBP.
- Reliable, serviceable, upgradeable, fashion-despising: T14 / T480 / T490.
- Serviceable, upgradable, but sort of new kids on the block, and less fashion-oblivious: Star Labs Starfighter, Framework, System 76 Oryx Pro.
- Sleek-looking at the expense of everything soldered and glued down: Thinkpad X1, MBP 2019.
- Open-source loving, more things under user's control: System 76 Oryx Pro, Star Labs Starfighter, partly Framework.
Star Labs Starfighter looks incredible BTW, thanks to bringing it to my attention. I sorely miss a trackpoint though.
No idea about others. I'd like to like HP Dev One, but I don't trust HP to make reliable things any more :(
I wonder why no model from the Dell Latitude line made it here; I thought some of them have good Linux support.
When it comes to Thinkpads and other similar laptops - get one without the dedicated Nvidia GPU. That is just a nightmare on Linux.
Second this. I got a Thinkpad P1 off eBay (basically the X1C with a dedicated GPU) from a similar recommendation thread on HN somewhere and actually have gotten it to work but this aspect has been difficult to sort out.
I recently upgraded to a refurbished 8th gen (KBL, top of the line i7 model with NVMe and Thunderbolt) Latitude 7390, and everything "just works", including BIOS updates via LVFS/fwupd with only a few days lag over the announcement on Dell's site. With this level of support I finally feel like a first class citizen running Linux.
Oh, and it has a proper selection of ports, including wired LAN.
I very much do not feel like a first class citizen running Linux :(
I second this. And even while they do work, build quality is atrocious and you can never really say they're "good". The worst offender is by far the screen. The quality is so unbelievably, absurdly, ridiculously bad for a laptop that costs the same as an MBP (32 GB RAM / 512 GB SSD).
You also better not be bothered by coil whine and an unbalanced fan fresh out of the box (but at least it doesn't spin that often).
Since the keyboard is pretty nasty, you probably won't use it that often, so you won't notice that it doesn't lay flat on the table and, therefore, it creaks.
It just feels an all-round cheap imitation of a macbook.
But, to the point of this post, Linux runs perfectly on it. Every last piece of hardware is supported, which hasn't been the case on Windows until a few weeks ago (no webcam on my amd model, and wonky dp-passhtrough through a hp (!) dock on my intel model).
These impressions are based on multiple generations of Elitebooks. The dev one seems similar, but actually cheaper, so it may be a better deal.
Thinkpad X1 Extreme doesn't have soldered/glued down setup (well, except the battery): both RAM and SSD are user replaceable. Though one might argue that it is essentially a P-series machine...
I wonder if they'll come out with an ARM model. Open source OS's are in a good position to take advantage of alternate CPU architectures.
Besides that, I love my Lemur Pro
I got motivated to buy the T14 as my next machine until I saw that the RAM is not upgradable. Only SSD and the extra M.2 slot. :(
EDIT: At least the gen 3
EDIT 2: And the AMD version.
What are you trying to say with this “> 0” syntax? That solutions exist?
the wifi didn't work on the 5.15 LTS kernel that NixOS defaults to, so I had to upgrade to 6.0. and there's some wonkiness with suspend, where the system will sometimes re-suspend itself a moment after opening the lid. a minor annoyance that I haven't taken the time to debug yet.
my previous Lenovos, I've always bought used ~3 year old models from eBay and local refurbishers. these slightly outdated models would always work perfectly with LTS kernels, no fiddling needed.
so if Linux compatibility is a higher priority than having the absolute newest hardware, I can definitely recommend looking at used Lenovos.
in particular, I recommend buying a model with no SSD whenever possible, and ordering a brand-new SSD separately. this way you know you're not getting an elderly drive, or one that was used for Chia mining, or whatever.
The good thing is that with Linux you don’t need the latest hardware to have a snappy system.
The bad thing is that not having the latest hardware is required if you don’t want to tinker.
To anyone considering going back this far in hardware gen, my T420s (i7, 16GB memory, LUKS-encrypted SSD needed for work) on Mint + MATE DE could flat-out _not_ handle work video calls unless it was the _only_ thing that was running with everything else closed down. Even then, it was watching slideshows.
It was the sole reason I needed to buy a new (as in a secondhand T480s on eBay last year) machine.
If you work with compiled languages, having good hardware is a real quality of life improvement.
Mine too! I would say it all depends on use case. If OP has certain tasks in mind they should maybe invest in something more powerful/newer. Having said that the t430s is a solid machine.
The X13s is nearly there in terms of Linux support, better in some regards than the M1. Next generation will be hopefully closer to the M1 in terms of performance.
However, pricing is weird in some markets. Here in EU/UK, the X13s is really expensive and makes no sense to purchase.
There have been zero issues with Linux compatibility, just install and good to go.
I only recommend and would buy thinkpads. Also because as you said you get them very affordable after they spend 2 years in a office.
> and there's some wonkiness with suspend
Check their UEFI, I think they started adding an option for Linux there specifically to handle suspend better. Set it to Linux instead of Windows.
So maybe getting brand new on day 1 can give some issues or it's related to NixOS (I have no experience with it)
heh, I have a similar issue on my T470 in xfce. And in my case it can sometimes even hang in this state: you see your desktop, but can't interact with it. So you have to go the terminal and kill screensaver service.
The small issues like these are the reason why I still prefer to use macbook for work: its not perfect and might be too opinionated, but at least it is predictable.
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The firmware can't be replaced with Coreboot unfortunately, but it is fantastic for a laptop. I have never seen a BIOS with so many configurable settings. There's even a key combo which shuts off all radio, lights and LEDs, which of course can be configured in detail.
Don't get the rubberized keyboard because it's impossible to type a sentence on. I also suggest ordering the m.2 NVMe separately to save serious money, and the Snapdragon X55 DW5930e modem from Aliexpress at a fraction of the price.
I've also heard legends about how great Dell's Worldwide repair program is where people have had parts delivered to them next day on the island of Borneo in Indonesia, but that's yet to be tested.
This was a long time ago, but I bought a Dell with Ubuntu while visiting my parents in Oregon, and took it back with me to where I was living in Innsbruck, Austria.
The hard drive (I told you this was a while back) died on me. I called up Dell, and expected some nightmare of having to ship it back to the US where I'd bought it and waiting months and who knows what.
But what actually happened was some guy showed up at my door the next day with a new drive and swapped it out.
I was so impressed.
When I complained to Dell, none of their employees seemed to understand that they had failed to honor their warranty, or why I would be disappointed.
The replacement machine works fine, but Dell violated their agreement with me and so I can no longer recommend them.
- The battery got swollen and destroyed the clips in the underneath cover when it pushed it off.
- Have had to replace both of my memory modules (Hynix something), and replace with another brand, after they broke.
- Memory modules requires re-seating at least a few times a month, especially if I run with the computer in a backpack (this is supposed to be possible to do with a durable laptop, no?)
- The NVMe SSD harddrive has needed multiple re-seatings.
- Some possible further glitches I might have forgotten.
Sad on a laptop which otherwise feels pretty great. I like the slighly rubberized coating, the keyboard, touchpad and screen, and weight is not too bad either.
Anyways, this makes me a slight bit skeptical about Dell's reputation as a durable brand in general. Others having some more hard facts on this? (I have been lately looking more towards Asus ExpertBooks, with claimed military standard durability).
And yeah the batteries are great, `powertop` reported 55h battery life remaining at 60% backlight with a single `st` terminal window open. And the backlight is blindingly bright at the max setting, so it's also usable in direct sunlight.
The laptop will also charge off of any USB-C power source like the weakest phone charger, makes me think that it'll take charge even from serially wired potatoes.
Best Linux laptop I ever had, using ThinkPads and Dell for many many years (14 years in total now)
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But if Linux is a tool for your job I wouldn’t daily drive it yet.
With the superfish fiasco first they insisted there wasn't any risk: “We have thoroughly investigated this technology and do not find any evidence to substantiate security concerns,” (https://www.techshout.com/lenovo-denies-accusations-that-its...)
Then once they were forced to admit the truth they released uninstall instructions that still left the systems vulnerable giving users a false sense of security. After security researchers started making headlines about their flawed removal instructions the company released updated instructions that actually removed the vulnerability they introduced. (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/20/lenovo-ap...)
Other security issues that never should have happened include multiple hardcoded passwords (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/lenovos-finge... and https://www.pcworld.com/article/419336/lenovo-fixes-hard-cod...) and shipping machines with crapware that was designed to send data back to Lenovo but also introduced a vulnerability and worse was stored in UEFI so that even after reinstalling the OS your machine just reinfects itself. (https://www.pcworld.com/article/422988/lenovos-service-engin...)
see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo#Security_and_privacy_in...
Who cares how good their compatibility with linux is if you can't trust the hardware its running on?
We have enough questionable hardware and binary blobs in our devices as it is. Why choose a device from a company who has repeatedly proven themselves to be undeserving of our trust? Why assume they would never target any other OS? Especially considering they've been increasingly marketing themselves to linux users?
It's not about Windows. Lenovo sold the privacy and security of its users by putting a malware in BIOS. This time it affected Windows systems, but who know what comes next.
That is one thing apple really does well for their brand: only sell premium stuff under one brand (Beats not withstanding). In contrast Lenovo has a mixed reputation: Thinkstuff never had any of the issues you mentioned, but is still tarnished. Similarly, Dell has great high end stuff, but awful low-end and Samsung just has everything (and washing machines and...)
What is "thinkstuff" in this context?
this one works though: https://www.zdnet.com/article/lenovo-says-superfish-not-a-se...
This being said, I traded my framework out for an M1 MacBook Pro, and just use OS X now. The reality is my OS X environment is functionally identical to Linux(and this includes very heavy use of Docker, I don’t know what anyone complaining about Docker on M1 are on about) and from a hardware perspective the M1/2 MacBooks just absolutely stomp every competitor for me, this is especially true if you care about battery life.
Disclaimer: I do not daily drive a laptop, and exclusively use a laptop when traveling or otherwise am incapable of using my desktop
The company where I consult gave me a MacBook, so my work is on that device.
The difference in hardware is just night and day. Sound, touchpad, battery life, ... . I don't get it why any other hardware company can't even get close to what Apple is offering.
Anyway, when I need to replace my own laptop, chance is very high that it will be a MacBook. Although I still like my Linux Mint way more than MacOS, the difference between those two seems less than the hardware difference between a MacBook and anything else out there.
If you are a tinker this laptop is for you and the abilities are endless.
I have recently changed teams though, my new setup doesn't require non-native images, and now it's fine again.
Are you using ARM-based Docker images? Never an issue with availability of your base images?
Not doubting, just interested.
I can definitely see mileage varying depending on the specific things you need to run, but I wasn’t ever really concerned with it because I usually have enough control over the images I use that I can switch something to a different base if need be.
The Ryzen 7 PRO 6850U processor (Ryzen 5 PRO 6650U also available) is performant and the battery life is _much_ better than the current 12th gen Intel processors. The experience with Linux has generally been great. I had a sleep issue initially but it's been resolved. I ordered it with only a 256GB SSD then swapped that out with a 1TB Samsung 980 Pro before installing Ubuntu. If you want at 1TB or 2TB ssd, it's significantly cheaper to do it like this vs getting a bigger one with your order, and you will have a a faster SSD too.
What make and model SSD did it come with?
You can replace it with something better like SSK Hynix Platinum P41 or Samsung SSDs.
What features are you looking for in a Linux laptop?
The process should be to first identify what hardware features you want, and then identify Linux support for those features. Support varies from distro to distro; they all have warty bits, and you can spend a lot of time picking a Linux.
Meanwhile, it should be the case that lots of laptops run desktop Linux pretty darn well. The typical exceptions today are graphics drivers (damn you, nvidia!) and touchpads when the vendor decides to manufacture something new. Most other stuff should work with minimal effort.
I'm typing this from the LG 17Z990 that has been running Debian (and only Debian) for over 5 years now. (Not an endorsement of that particular laptop; the keyboard is SO FRAGILE!) Before that, I had a big honkin' Dell that worked flawlessly with Debian for at least 7 years. So that's 12 years of daily-driving Linux. It hasn't been without its nuisances, but neither are Windows or MacOS. Unlike Windows or MacOS, when something does annoy me in Linux, it is -- generally -- fixable.
I really don't think you need to buy a laptop for Linux support, at this point. Like, sure, double-check that it doesn't have a known problem. You might have to pick your Linux according to the laptop, though.