As someone who grew up in the global South, this reads to me like a person from a privileged background trying to relate to the everyday people in other places and the marginalized- but it comes off sounding like a lot of projectionand assumptions- it would read much better if the conclusions were accompanied with dialogue from people, maybe explanations of where those statements are coming from.
>I don’t travel like most people do
I would think most travel is done by a wealthy few, but most travelers aren't wealthy- if that makes sense? It sounds like the "travel" being referred to here is "flying somewhere and being a tourist" but in fact to many people "travel" means taking the train/bus to another city, staying in a hostel, wandering around. Most people who go to see a wonder of the world do it because this might be the one time in their life they can afford to visit NYC, a place many people dream of seeing, and so they want to experience those things that are iconic there. I guess it really stands out to me, this writing sounds like "I'm not like those other stereotypical tourists" and the stereotypes are those behaviors associated with privileged westerners- which isn't really an accurate representation of most travelers.
From the Istanbul post:
>Most Turks are not secular though, and neither are they religious nuts like them Arabs
He considers education by traveling as sufficient, which I believe is not the best approach. Might be a good idea to read up a little about the history and cultures of a region before going.
There is a lot going on with his writing that comes off ethnocentric, uninformed, insensitive. I'm not going to dissect it, but I'll just say I recommend familiarization with cultural geography, anthropology, and ethnography if the topic of understanding people in different places interests you- because this blog is rife with problematic bias and some really broad generalizations that are prejudice at best, racism at worst.
Wow, the criticism of his "Faces of Affiction" work is spot on.
From his Istanbul post:
>Because being an addict here is an ugly and gross rebellion against a town that feels like a single massive mosque. A place that is welcoming, humble, peaceful, and sublimely beautiful. It is like pissing on an alter. A gross, ugly, and rebellious act that will bring scorn and shame. Both in the physical and spiritual world.
US cities by comparison have all the ethos of an office park. Drab, soulless, and endlessly competitive, where selfishness is rewarded. Being an addict there is like pissing on the drab shrub at the edge of a massive parking lot. It doesn’t feel that wrong. It even feels a little right. Especially if your a tad depressed. A tad isolated. A tad lonely. And many people are."
There is an issue here with this attempt at documenting people but without taking the time to learn and understand how to do it respectfully, ethically, and with consideration to the people he's observing. I want to believe his motivation comes from a good place, that he wants to bring attention to people's lives... but the way his writing reads sounds more like the fetishization of the marginalized and elitism over exceptionalism. It sounds like "yes I'm privileged but unlike those other privileged people I talk to the poors", because rather than centering the voices of the people he claims to "inhabit their tiny slice of the world"(while claiming his goal is "to better understand how they see the universe and their place in it") he dishes out his value judgements. The hubris that all you need to get an idea of how people live is to... show up. He does write that he sees traveling as fiction with the plot written in real time- evidently with him as the MC. He seems to want to change for the better though, and I hope he learns to invest a little more time into figuring out how to look at people's lives more respectfully than as entertainment.
> I would think most travel is done by a wealthy few, but most travelers aren't wealthy- if that makes sense? It sounds like the "travel" being referred to here is "flying somewhere and being a tourist" but in fact to many people "travel" means taking the train/bus to another city, staying in a hostel, wandering around. Most people who go to see a wonder of the world do it because this might be the one time in their life they can afford to visit NYC
I think you are ignoring middle class mass tourism. Between the privileged few who stay at chain hotels and the people going for once-in-a-lifetime experiences, there are many people who travel as tourists once every year or two.
Growing up in Finland in the 80s, I got used to an environment where most families could afford traveling around Europe. If there was a nice destination a travel agency could charter flights to without fighting the regulators for years, it was quickly filled with cheap hotels and restaurants catering to middle class tourists. Getting there was usually 1/3 of the costs, the hotel was another 1/3, and the money you spent on other expenses was the final 1/3.
Today flying is even cheaper. Regardless of whether you are from a nearby town or from another country thousands of kilometers away, the costs of staying at the destination are likely to dominate.
It seems he didn't do much travelling (from his blog?). Many people on HN would have done more. It also seems that he wrote off an entire continent (Africa) which is the cheapest to travel, has the most to experience and probably is the best adventure out there for travelers.
He has biases and he is travelling to confirm his biases; not to change them or let new ideas in. He is using a bit of a rough language to attract readers and collect up-votes.
Paradoxically, traveling Africa can be very expensive, because many parts are so poor and unvisited that there is no demand (and hence no supply) for reasonable transport, hotels, etc. The locals just don't travel long distance, and if they do, it's squashed into a clapped-out truck going to the market with a flock of goats, and it's two weeks until the next one.
The cheapest places to travel are middle-income places like Thailand and Vietnam, where there is plenty of local demand but wages have not risen to Western levels yet.
Seems like people are criticizing this partially because it's pitched as an alternative to normal tourism. Just wanted to point out that Chris Arnade has done quite compelling photo journalism based on his way of engaging with communities, so what might seem like non sequitors or edge lord stuff might be in service of an implicit goal of his that most travelers don't share. Not that he does himself any favors with some of the framing.
Is this the guy who covered Hunts Point in the Bronx? I remember seeing his pictures, feels like a long time ago now.
I found a Flickr album here [0]. I also vaguely recall a long form article, talking about a few different people's lives, but I can't seem to find that one.
I wrote the article. So you can yell at me here. Thanks again for all the interesting comments. Hacker news is the best. One of the few places I read the comments and learn.
Hey Chris - I wanted to drop a note here to thank you for what you've done for me personally. I found you first on Twitter I don't know how long ago and your posts there really brought home to me the point about how we were all talking past each other and don't engage in real conversations with people who might have different viewpoints from our own.
When my kids were younger we went on a camping trip every summer in a state park. There was this one group of people that we would hang out with each year (I called it "redneck corner") who were easily the most friendly and welcoming people in the entire campground. They would feed you, watch your kids, hand you a beer when you came by and we would just sit by the campfire and shoot the shit until the wee hours of the morning. They had nothing in common with me and my world and I loved it. I still remember their stories today.
Reading this post of yours today reminded me of those times, your writings (I loved Dignity), and the need for me to get out of my private office in my house and actually meet people who are different from me again. Until I figure out how to do that, I want to thank you for everything that you do to help me better understand the world a little bit better.
>When I decided to go to Vietnam, everything and everyone told me to go to Ho Chi Minh City. It had better food. More art. More high culture. Less government. So I went to Hanoi.
>The US equivalent is to go to Indianapolis instead of NYC or Houston instead of LA.
This is a really odd thing to say when Hanoi is the second largest city in Vietnam (larger than LA) and a huge tourist destination in itself. It's more akin to choosing LA instead of NYC.
I thought that was a very weird comment as well and your comment about it being like choosing between NYC and LA is spot on.
I am also surprised there's no mention of train travel. I found this the best way to get to know a country and its people. When you're stuck on a train for hours you end up talking to your fellow passengers.
India was great for this as everyone was chatty and spoke decent English. Vietnam was a bit more of a challenge on the language front but you still got to have some interesting conversations in basic English with some help by showing pictures.
I did not go very far off the beaten path in Vietnam but I really enjoyed the vibe and night life in Huế.
Ive been to both and I definitely considered Hanoi more (locally) cultured. Also the comparison to Indianapolis doesn't make sense a smaller east coast US city like Washington DC or Boston makes more sense as it's a cultural and ideological center of the country.
Hey, Chris - I think one of the difficulties I had with your article(and with other writing like it), having lived outside the US and trying to travel like this occasionally then, is that we don't really get to live as the locals live. I spent most of my time in one specific corner of the world, and I see a difference of thought process in people who are tourists, people who travel, and people who live in another culture. I think you're in the second category, which is not bad, but I think that there is a real sense of particular place missing from your writing, while there is a distinct mindset missing from my place (the third category) that lead to both intrinsically lacking the full appreciation of the other. When we travel, we live like some facsimile of local life if we stay in an AirBnB and go to local places, but we still are relatively rich, white (?male?) people with the option to leave the place when we want to, and don't get a good, deep sense of the culture. It's hard to be a real regular somewhere, for example, when it's clear that you are a rich visitor who will be coming regularly for a while, spending a good amount of money, and then leaving. From your writing, for example, I felt like you misunderstood the compliment that Jamal, the Turkish restaurant owner, gave you when he complimented the economic status that has allowed you to gain weight. I lived somewhere in a decent amount of privilege while working for several years, and it was only after regular, constant, and questioning exposure to the culture that I began to understand it past the surface. I don't see how your wide travel to many different cultures lets you get a deep understanding of any specific one.
Put another way, (which can seem attacking, not my intent, I just can't think of a way to say this better in a short comment) the tourist has an experience an inch wide and an inch deep, the traveler has an experience a mile wide and a foot deep, and the person who goes to live in a third country for a term that includes the word years has an experience a foot wide and a mile deep. We just should all recognize what our experiences are.
Solid writing, rolling is the way for clothes, one backpack where at all possible(mine was larger than yours, but still so much easier to just carryon when going to visit somewhere), and I greatly enjoyed my visits to place I described as 'Wichita, $COUNTRY', just not as much as living somewhere for years.
Even foreigners living in a country among the locals people often miss a lot. That shouldn't be surprising, we miss a ton of stuff even in our own country while speaking the same language. Have you ever heard someone from your country tell foreigners about what people in your country are like, and thought "what are they talking about"?
There's just so much variation, it's hard to really say. I've known people who lived in a country for years, don't speak the language, and live in their small expat circle. I've known typical tourist types who found themselves living among the locals because they ended up on a local tour. Or people that don't live in a country, but have studied the language and consumed the local media to an extent that they have a better understanding of a lot of cultural trends than people who lived or visited the place.
In the end, it's probably best to let go of the idea that any one person is going to see the "true" place, or that one city is more "authentic" than another. Everyone, even the locals, are just going to know some piece of a much larger whole. I'm not sure how useful it is to argue about which piece is better than the others.
You seem to object to doing touristy stuff, but you neglect the fact that locals also do touristy stuff[1]. I agree going to resort towns is silly, but anyone with a keen eye will learn a lot about local culture just walking around and observing in any neighborhood.
My favorite observation, Chinese apartments with dedicated areas to hang dry clothing outside, the drying area is fenced off, in some places I saw, using decorative columns, with line/bar put up to hang clothing on. Apartments have a large window that opens to the fenced off area, and a stick with a hook on the end is used to put clothing out on hangers. There is still some privacy of what is being hung up, and it looks much neater, and presumably it keeps birds and such away.
Wonderful bit of home design.
Another bit that stuck with me, I was staying at an AirBNB in downtown Mexico City, when I went out in the morning I saw store owners mopping down the fronts of their stores to get rid of the dust and grime. I've never seen stores in the US care enough to bother.
[1] If you come to the Pacific Northwest and don't hike a mountain or go out on a lake, why the heck did you come and visit in the first place? And as a third gen Seattle resident, I've done plenty of shopping at Pike Place Market.
Unfortunately people are only seeing the bad in this article. I do similar things with my family but not so extreme. I've really found that restaurants/food are the keys to understanding the local culture. I will never forget in Pureto Rico we found a back street lechonera, when we were getting food I asked the woman behind us what was good to eat. She helped us then we sta with her for lunch. My family ended up spending almost 2 hours talking to her over lunch and got deep in to PR politics and such. An amazing experience.
What I've found helps the most is asking questions. Any time you can ask someone a question they open up and you end up making connections and learning so much. Usually it's simple stuff like sitting at a full bar and asking the person next to you how the sandwich is, or what is on their pizza. Next thing you know you're making a friend and you're actually having real conversations with locals.
Speaking as a NW European: talking to random people and asking them random questions is like the perfect way to stand out as a foreigner, probably American :-)
Eat in silence and leave others to their own, that's the key to the local culture here. Especially in situations like public transport, people like their silence on their commute.
Wow. So many comments. I wish I could respond to all, but life.
Thanks again and always enjoy when a post of mine makes it to Hacker news. I appreciate the feedback, and actually listen to it, and when wrong, try to adjust.
I generally would agree that touristy city centers tend to feel similar to each other, be polished and therefore boring. However, your example of Hanoi couldn't be more hilariously misguided. Your characterisation of touristy areas ("places of quaint storefronts mobbed with American retirees, hip bars filled with plastered 25 year old Brits, and a few monuments with millions of Instagram posts.
Despite being in very different cities, they all feel the same. You have your five star hotels. Your restaurants that everyone says you have to go to. Your buildings plastered with historic plaques") is completely off the mark. The old town of Hanoi is precisely where locals go in the evenings for a cheap beer on the streets - it doesn't get more typically Vietnamese than that. And the old town of Hanoi definitely does not feel the same as anywhere else, even just within South East Asia, Hanoi is known as a very special place.
Don't get me wrong, exploring other areas of Hanoi is a wonderful experience as well.
I agree that there's a lot of value in traveling beyond the beaten tourist path, especially with the bit that this path tends to have a certain sameness to it, regardless of where you actually are. However I disagree with going out of your way to avoid it. Writing off entire cities because they're big or popular is needlessly contrarian. If you're seeking the lived experience of locals, why not go visit the NYC-equivalent of their country?
Also can't help but point out your characterization of Hanoi as the Indianapolis of Vietnam is ridiculous. Perhaps in comparative size, but Hanoi is the old capital of Northern Vietnam, and remains a fascinating vestige of what "old" Vietnam was like. No offense, but Indianapolis is Indianapolis.
I don't write off entire cities. I do make choices with limited time. As I write,
"That doesn’t mean entirely ignoring places like NYC, Istanbul, Seoul, or Tokyo. Some cities are so important they can’t be missed, and every city is a confederation of very different neighborhoods. NYC is as much Dyker Heights as it is Upper East Side.
That makes where you stay in a city more important than the city itself. "
I wasn't attempting to suggest Hanoi is the Indianapolis of Vietnam. I was Just using a stretched example to go to the less obvious place. Maybe I'm wrong, but the vibes I got here in my world is Hanoi is the less obvious place compared to Saigon.
Using google maps to spot out a non-touristy area was ingenious.
I live near the spot you showed in the example that you picked.
I would suggest next time trying out another method, not based on restaurants, but on using Historical Map: look at the city and go back 100 years, then look at the city in the present, and either choose a place that has not changed at all, or a place that was a slum and now is housing.
Thank you for writing 'Dignity.' I've read it, shared it, given it away.
You gave a tip during a panel in Chapel Hill about learning from others by switching where to get your morning coffee, e.g. from Starbucks to McDonalds, or more local places. I've added it to my list of tactics and am richer for it.
Saigon is also good choice for your travel. Don't be biased by people talking. I can see some parts of me in your post when I went to Saigon. (Fun fact: I'm Vietnamese living in Hanoi)
Next time if you have time, come and enjoy your education in Saigon.
I'm from Idaho, I feel like someone could drop me anywhere in the world and I'd probably do ok. Unless there's humidity j/k :-P
Kind of a random question, but what do you think about van life aka Instagram tourism?
We're seeing a lot of stacked rock piles, trash left at campsites, defaced natural formations, just people in general crowding into areas that used to be "secret". We have a sense that people visiting here don't share our values around leaving no trace. Is that happening everywhere? Is it a trend? Will it get better or worse? Etc etc.
In hindsight, this wasn't a great question. I don't associate vandalism with van life or Instagram tourism. A lot of people found time to travel during the pandemic, some for the first time, and the large numbers of tourists were probably the main cause of any damage. I just worry about the damage worsening if more people are able to be digital nomads but don't work at their own personal responsibility.
i have been traveling with a similar aim, to get to know people and learn about the day-to-day life. and i wish i would have had some of your ideas. like eating at the same restaurant frequently to get to know the people there. i used couchsurfing (and earlier equivalents) to find locals to stay with.
i agree with most of what you say. maybe not the part about picking the worst season. i'd mellow that one to "avoid tourist seasons". i want to go somewhere there there are not many other foreigners.
i also went one step further after i finished studying, and went to places to actually work there, for 6 months, or a year, or more. in one decade i lived in a dozen different countries. i always connected to local linux user groups and local chapters of other communities that i was part of. (if you practice some sport, then join the local sports club to continue practicing). i went to local tech events, even if they were in a language i didn't speak. just showing up regularly allowed me to make new friends.
one thing that was important to me is that i intentionally didn't reading anything about the places i went to. i want to experience a place without it being colored through the reports of other foreigners.
and in a manner i am still traveling. i have been back home to visit, but i haven't lived there for more than 20 years.
"and went to places to actually work there, for 6 months, or a year, or more" -- yeah if you have the ability to do that (job, family, etc) that is a great way to live IMO.
You mention the local linux groups. My brother, who does something similar to you, uses the local Ping Pong clubs. He is a top rated player, and its enough of a niche sport, but one that is everywhere, that its a great international community
I loved the article. It puts to words some patterns I have been developing in my mind throughout the years. I haven't got the experience to go that hardcore on localness yet, so my current algo is to seek destinations where the locals go to tourist. I find it a confortable middle ground between the shiny global touristy places and "contrarian ultra-local" places (if I can borrow a term tossed around here, not judging the article in any way).
OR make it only show on consecutive visits (not the first one), and make the "let me read this first" option a bit more obvious. I've been looking aimlessly for an obvious X or No and missed the option the first time around.
To the degree I have a difference of opinion, it is around the idealization of planning and packing light.
I believe the most excellent choices are best made on the ground and the expedition is a great way to explore.
The airport genericizes travel. It removes distance and vastness and remoteness.
Flying gives you an MP3 - and that may be good enough - but it is not the band playing live in someone’s living room.
Getting there puts the flyer among travelers very much similar dealing with very much the same things at the same time. Airport food, flight delays, seat pitch, luggage limitations, etc., etc.
Traveling light as virtue is heavy baggage exchanged for a 61 key synth and a worn tea kettle.
The most interesting and beautiful places in Vietnam are not in the large cities. It is the countryside and the places that foreigners almost never travel to.
The places where you don't see another white person for weeks on end (mostly in the North West of Hanoi... especially Ha Giang area).
The places that are really hard to travel in if you don't have a local who can speak the language. Why hard? Because just getting food or even a place to crash in a random tiny town late at night (because it took you too long to drive there), is a real struggle.
Hey Chris, just wanted to say I love Dignity, and enjoy listening to you on various podcasts. The Econtalk episode and the recent Lamp Magazine ones were great!
Your viewpoint on walking matches my own. I refuse cabs when traveling. However, public transit is usually fair game for me, because that seems part of the culture itself and should be experienced.
Have you ever visualized your GPS tracks(if available) of your walks around a city?
How do you not get the PB&J through airport security? You can bring any food. The ban on liquids is because liquid explosives can’t be frozen. So anyone bringing most okay liquids (e.g. soup) can just freeze it but people trying to bring something very flammable (e.g. ethanol) wouldn’t be able to.
Enjoyed the article! I saw your line about not really caring what you look like and wanted to add that throwing a collared shirt and light sweater into your bag will open many, many doors.
«I try to find non-traditional tourist destinations. Cities that are viewed as ugly, or without a lot to see. Cities where the residents are more focused on living their life, for themselves, not for a global audience.»
This resonates so much with an experience I have had once. My wife and I visited Japan for a couple weeks and we went to 4 cities: 3 big classic ones (Tokyo, Kyoto, Hiroshima), and a small city that a relative used to live in: Beppu, which is not at all a tourist destination. In fact Beppu is so off the radar that one of the only guided tours available there to see local gardens and one monastery was by a guide who didn't even speak English. I didn't see a single restaurant menu in English. There was not much to do except randomly exploring neighborhoods and trying random shops, walking along canals, people-watching, bathing in the local hot springs (which were completely empty), etc. We were immersed in a tiny city with just people living their normal lives. And yet, Beppu was my most favorite experience in Japan. It felt like the real Japan.
The thing is, most people in most cities are living for themselves, not a global audience. Even a place like New York isn't all Broadway and haute couture, and there are a number of interesting neighborhoods that are generally overlooked by tourists.
I saw this recently with the issue of migrants in Martha's Vineyard, where people thought the entire island was populated by millionaires. There's a lot of wealthy people who go to these places for the summer, but the year-round population is much more complex. About 1/5 of the population are actually recent immigrants from Brazil[1], and if you look at the local school notices you'll see they're printed in English and Portuguese.
In an effort to get an "authentic" experience, it's possible to overlook the authentic experiences that are right in front of us.
Beppu is one of those places that lives off of domestic tourism. I wouldn't say it's the "real" Japan, but it is certainly in the realm of "traditional" japan.
Some of this advice is good, some of it is bizarre:
> I prefer to travel to a city the time of year its most uncomfortable. So like Montreal in the winter, or New Delhi in the summer. I want to see a place when it’s at the apogee of its essence, not when it’s the most comfortable. A kinda, if you are going to do X really do X thing. It’s also when it’s a lot cheaper.
No, sorry, if you visit New Delhi in May, Tokyo in August or Montreal in February, you're going to have a pretty miserable time.
If you visit Chicago in the winter, the absolute worst part of the year, you’ll miss what makes Chicago great.
The beautiful summers are so great it makes the winters tolerable.
For example I always take visitors on a river/lake boat tour. Even though I grew up here it always blows my mind mind. The problems is those are completely shut down in the winter.
If someone wanted to visit me in the winter and “act like a local” I don’t know what I would suggest, maybe stay indoors where it’s warm.
I think there's "off season" and there's "midwest in January" - you can aim to visit Chicago in the very early spring or late fall just as the boat tours begin or end.
As in all cases, careful research can reveal opportune times that you can balance with your other goals. If you want to see the cherry blossoms in Japan, you're stuck to a very particular time, for example; but I don't think they put away Mt Fiji until very late in winter.
This is precisely the comment I was going to make. If you want to come to Chocago in the "off season", you're more than welcome, but you'll just be as miserable and bored as the rest of us locals.
I was in Japan during the hottest part of the year pre-pandemic and it was delightful. The cicadas from anime are a real thing, not sure why that surprised me exactly but I loved the vibe. I experienced how an onsen visit can completely refresh me in any weather - so interesting how steeping in super hot water makes me feel better in super hot weather. I bought a neck towel with a fun waving cat print and shopkeepers watering plants always offered to water my neck towel. Always ice cold water. My hikes were made all the more satisfying under the intense heat. In the moment you're hot and sweaty, but afterwards you are washed and air conditioned and drinking ice cold beer and life is so much sweeter.
I'd probably be okay with that, but I don't like being uncomfortable. My girlfriend gets heat stroke when temperatures go over 25 degrees celsius, so that's a definite nope. Still want to visit Japan at some point though.
Maybe for someone who is always used to A/C or central heating.
For someone who has experience with such weather and has adapted to it, it's not a big deal.
I wouldn't presume to tell other people how they should feel, but giving them a head's up that it may be miserable if they're not ready for it is wise.
Tokyo had a few days this last august with lethal wet bulb temperatures. I assume Delhi would be similar.
Winter in Montreal just needs the right clothing, but then you’re not packing light. A proper winter coat, gloves, boots, etc. will need way more space than exists in that tiny backpack.
I guess it depends on your sensibilities. Tokyo in the summer matches where I live in the summer, so it's no real change. Also I'd say weather is all part of the experience. Places like Sapporo or Sendai are great to visit in the winter, because you get a real winter experience. Something we don't get in my country.
Most countries have more than 4 season in practical terms though, and going during the "seasons inbetween" is my recommendation. In Australia, the indigenous have up to 6 different seasons they identified depending on the location/tribe, and they have more nuanced events expected for each season. Most countries are like that in real terms, so intimate knowledge can get you a great budget off-season holiday experience.
And in the US and much of Europe, school and general vacation schedules play a role as well. September and October tend to be really good times to visit a lot of places that are packed in July and August--and the weather is often even better. Get into the winter and it's at least a different experience out of doors and may not even be really doable for the casual visitor (though of course cities are always visitable to some degree).
Exactly, that’s generally my tact on my digital nomad adventures… try to avoid peak season, but don’t go in the middle of winter/summer in a seasonal area
I think it actually makes sense, but perhaps more so for “traditional” tourism. I lived in Amsterdam for 20 or so years. I found winter to be positively miserable: cold, rainy and dark. But it is the best time of year to see tourist highlights like the Anne Frank House, Rijksmuseum etc. Not as much waiting and crowding. The old town in general felt less like an open air museum. Not sure if this still holds true, it’s been over a decade since I moved away.
The thing is even locals will have a greater time during the nicer times. Using Montreal, where I was living until a few years ago, is a much nicer place to wander around when there's no snow. It's a colourful city, lively and full of small and big activity to do, so you can get by with the sort of tourism you described in high season (summer), but also end of spring and early fall.
In the winter, it's a cold, wet and relatively low interaction time of the year. I assume some place have a high, low and dead season for tourism, and I personally aim for low, but to each their own. Quebec in general is a great place for winter vacation, just have to go outside Montreal island.
The author's behavior is, to some extent, an attempt at anti-conformity by traveling in a way that he believes most people don't do (i.e. by staying close to locals, staying longer than a few days, avoiding popular places to experience authenticity). I think most people would in theory like to travel that way. Places that feel authentic draw people and become popular, which eventually makes those places feel less "authentic". That's the paradox. If everyone traveled and behaved like the author, then, in time, there would be less "authentic" places to discover.
This is kind of like the Heisenberg principle for travel. You can’t visit the place without having some effect on it. Though I think authenticity is a bit fetishized anyway. Some of the world’s most interesting places are fusions of multiple cultures. Like wishing for the “authentic” Mexico City before the Spanish.
Readit News
As someone who grew up in the global South, this reads to me like a person from a privileged background trying to relate to the everyday people in other places and the marginalized- but it comes off sounding like a lot of projectionand assumptions- it would read much better if the conclusions were accompanied with dialogue from people, maybe explanations of where those statements are coming from.
>I don’t travel like most people do I would think most travel is done by a wealthy few, but most travelers aren't wealthy- if that makes sense? It sounds like the "travel" being referred to here is "flying somewhere and being a tourist" but in fact to many people "travel" means taking the train/bus to another city, staying in a hostel, wandering around. Most people who go to see a wonder of the world do it because this might be the one time in their life they can afford to visit NYC, a place many people dream of seeing, and so they want to experience those things that are iconic there. I guess it really stands out to me, this writing sounds like "I'm not like those other stereotypical tourists" and the stereotypes are those behaviors associated with privileged westerners- which isn't really an accurate representation of most travelers.
From the Istanbul post:
>Most Turks are not secular though, and neither are they religious nuts like them Arabs
He considers education by traveling as sufficient, which I believe is not the best approach. Might be a good idea to read up a little about the history and cultures of a region before going.
There is a lot going on with his writing that comes off ethnocentric, uninformed, insensitive. I'm not going to dissect it, but I'll just say I recommend familiarization with cultural geography, anthropology, and ethnography if the topic of understanding people in different places interests you- because this blog is rife with problematic bias and some really broad generalizations that are prejudice at best, racism at worst.
FWIW, it looks like he's watching: https://twitter.com/Chris_arnade/status/1580993239670136832 So maybe he'll take your criticism.
From his Istanbul post:
>Because being an addict here is an ugly and gross rebellion against a town that feels like a single massive mosque. A place that is welcoming, humble, peaceful, and sublimely beautiful. It is like pissing on an alter. A gross, ugly, and rebellious act that will bring scorn and shame. Both in the physical and spiritual world. US cities by comparison have all the ethos of an office park. Drab, soulless, and endlessly competitive, where selfishness is rewarded. Being an addict there is like pissing on the drab shrub at the edge of a massive parking lot. It doesn’t feel that wrong. It even feels a little right. Especially if your a tad depressed. A tad isolated. A tad lonely. And many people are."
There is an issue here with this attempt at documenting people but without taking the time to learn and understand how to do it respectfully, ethically, and with consideration to the people he's observing. I want to believe his motivation comes from a good place, that he wants to bring attention to people's lives... but the way his writing reads sounds more like the fetishization of the marginalized and elitism over exceptionalism. It sounds like "yes I'm privileged but unlike those other privileged people I talk to the poors", because rather than centering the voices of the people he claims to "inhabit their tiny slice of the world"(while claiming his goal is "to better understand how they see the universe and their place in it") he dishes out his value judgements. The hubris that all you need to get an idea of how people live is to... show up. He does write that he sees traveling as fiction with the plot written in real time- evidently with him as the MC. He seems to want to change for the better though, and I hope he learns to invest a little more time into figuring out how to look at people's lives more respectfully than as entertainment.
I think you are ignoring middle class mass tourism. Between the privileged few who stay at chain hotels and the people going for once-in-a-lifetime experiences, there are many people who travel as tourists once every year or two.
Growing up in Finland in the 80s, I got used to an environment where most families could afford traveling around Europe. If there was a nice destination a travel agency could charter flights to without fighting the regulators for years, it was quickly filled with cheap hotels and restaurants catering to middle class tourists. Getting there was usually 1/3 of the costs, the hotel was another 1/3, and the money you spent on other expenses was the final 1/3.
Today flying is even cheaper. Regardless of whether you are from a nearby town or from another country thousands of kilometers away, the costs of staying at the destination are likely to dominate.
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He has biases and he is travelling to confirm his biases; not to change them or let new ideas in. He is using a bit of a rough language to attract readers and collect up-votes.
The cheapest places to travel are middle-income places like Thailand and Vietnam, where there is plenty of local demand but wages have not risen to Western levels yet.
Highly recommend his book Dignity. https://www.amazon.com/Dignity-Seeking-Respect-Back-America/...
Some of his work in the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/profile/chris-arnade
I found a Flickr album here [0]. I also vaguely recall a long form article, talking about a few different people's lives, but I can't seem to find that one.
[0] - https://www.flickr.com/photos/arnade/albums/7215762646801687...
https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=Chris_arnade
When my kids were younger we went on a camping trip every summer in a state park. There was this one group of people that we would hang out with each year (I called it "redneck corner") who were easily the most friendly and welcoming people in the entire campground. They would feed you, watch your kids, hand you a beer when you came by and we would just sit by the campfire and shoot the shit until the wee hours of the morning. They had nothing in common with me and my world and I loved it. I still remember their stories today.
Reading this post of yours today reminded me of those times, your writings (I loved Dignity), and the need for me to get out of my private office in my house and actually meet people who are different from me again. Until I figure out how to do that, I want to thank you for everything that you do to help me better understand the world a little bit better.
>The US equivalent is to go to Indianapolis instead of NYC or Houston instead of LA.
This is a really odd thing to say when Hanoi is the second largest city in Vietnam (larger than LA) and a huge tourist destination in itself. It's more akin to choosing LA instead of NYC.
I am also surprised there's no mention of train travel. I found this the best way to get to know a country and its people. When you're stuck on a train for hours you end up talking to your fellow passengers.
India was great for this as everyone was chatty and spoke decent English. Vietnam was a bit more of a challenge on the language front but you still got to have some interesting conversations in basic English with some help by showing pictures.
I did not go very far off the beaten path in Vietnam but I really enjoyed the vibe and night life in Huế.
Put another way, (which can seem attacking, not my intent, I just can't think of a way to say this better in a short comment) the tourist has an experience an inch wide and an inch deep, the traveler has an experience a mile wide and a foot deep, and the person who goes to live in a third country for a term that includes the word years has an experience a foot wide and a mile deep. We just should all recognize what our experiences are.
Solid writing, rolling is the way for clothes, one backpack where at all possible(mine was larger than yours, but still so much easier to just carryon when going to visit somewhere), and I greatly enjoyed my visits to place I described as 'Wichita, $COUNTRY', just not as much as living somewhere for years.
There's just so much variation, it's hard to really say. I've known people who lived in a country for years, don't speak the language, and live in their small expat circle. I've known typical tourist types who found themselves living among the locals because they ended up on a local tour. Or people that don't live in a country, but have studied the language and consumed the local media to an extent that they have a better understanding of a lot of cultural trends than people who lived or visited the place.
In the end, it's probably best to let go of the idea that any one person is going to see the "true" place, or that one city is more "authentic" than another. Everyone, even the locals, are just going to know some piece of a much larger whole. I'm not sure how useful it is to argue about which piece is better than the others.
My favorite observation, Chinese apartments with dedicated areas to hang dry clothing outside, the drying area is fenced off, in some places I saw, using decorative columns, with line/bar put up to hang clothing on. Apartments have a large window that opens to the fenced off area, and a stick with a hook on the end is used to put clothing out on hangers. There is still some privacy of what is being hung up, and it looks much neater, and presumably it keeps birds and such away.
Wonderful bit of home design.
Another bit that stuck with me, I was staying at an AirBNB in downtown Mexico City, when I went out in the morning I saw store owners mopping down the fronts of their stores to get rid of the dust and grime. I've never seen stores in the US care enough to bother.
[1] If you come to the Pacific Northwest and don't hike a mountain or go out on a lake, why the heck did you come and visit in the first place? And as a third gen Seattle resident, I've done plenty of shopping at Pike Place Market.
What I've found helps the most is asking questions. Any time you can ask someone a question they open up and you end up making connections and learning so much. Usually it's simple stuff like sitting at a full bar and asking the person next to you how the sandwich is, or what is on their pizza. Next thing you know you're making a friend and you're actually having real conversations with locals.
Eat in silence and leave others to their own, that's the key to the local culture here. Especially in situations like public transport, people like their silence on their commute.
Thanks again and always enjoy when a post of mine makes it to Hacker news. I appreciate the feedback, and actually listen to it, and when wrong, try to adjust.
Thanks again!
Don't get me wrong, exploring other areas of Hanoi is a wonderful experience as well.
Also can't help but point out your characterization of Hanoi as the Indianapolis of Vietnam is ridiculous. Perhaps in comparative size, but Hanoi is the old capital of Northern Vietnam, and remains a fascinating vestige of what "old" Vietnam was like. No offense, but Indianapolis is Indianapolis.
"That doesn’t mean entirely ignoring places like NYC, Istanbul, Seoul, or Tokyo. Some cities are so important they can’t be missed, and every city is a confederation of very different neighborhoods. NYC is as much Dyker Heights as it is Upper East Side.
That makes where you stay in a city more important than the city itself. "
I wasn't attempting to suggest Hanoi is the Indianapolis of Vietnam. I was Just using a stretched example to go to the less obvious place. Maybe I'm wrong, but the vibes I got here in my world is Hanoi is the less obvious place compared to Saigon.
I live near the spot you showed in the example that you picked.
I would suggest next time trying out another method, not based on restaurants, but on using Historical Map: look at the city and go back 100 years, then look at the city in the present, and either choose a place that has not changed at all, or a place that was a slum and now is housing.
You gave a tip during a panel in Chapel Hill about learning from others by switching where to get your morning coffee, e.g. from Starbucks to McDonalds, or more local places. I've added it to my list of tactics and am richer for it.
Next time if you have time, come and enjoy your education in Saigon.
Thanks again
Kind of a random question, but what do you think about van life aka Instagram tourism?
We're seeing a lot of stacked rock piles, trash left at campsites, defaced natural formations, just people in general crowding into areas that used to be "secret". We have a sense that people visiting here don't share our values around leaving no trace. Is that happening everywhere? Is it a trend? Will it get better or worse? Etc etc.
i agree with most of what you say. maybe not the part about picking the worst season. i'd mellow that one to "avoid tourist seasons". i want to go somewhere there there are not many other foreigners.
i also went one step further after i finished studying, and went to places to actually work there, for 6 months, or a year, or more. in one decade i lived in a dozen different countries. i always connected to local linux user groups and local chapters of other communities that i was part of. (if you practice some sport, then join the local sports club to continue practicing). i went to local tech events, even if they were in a language i didn't speak. just showing up regularly allowed me to make new friends.
one thing that was important to me is that i intentionally didn't reading anything about the places i went to. i want to experience a place without it being colored through the reports of other foreigners.
and in a manner i am still traveling. i have been back home to visit, but i haven't lived there for more than 20 years.
You mention the local linux groups. My brother, who does something similar to you, uses the local Ping Pong clubs. He is a top rated player, and its enough of a niche sport, but one that is everywhere, that its a great international community
OR make it only show on consecutive visits (not the first one), and make the "let me read this first" option a bit more obvious. I've been looking aimlessly for an obvious X or No and missed the option the first time around.
I believe the most excellent choices are best made on the ground and the expedition is a great way to explore.
The airport genericizes travel. It removes distance and vastness and remoteness.
Flying gives you an MP3 - and that may be good enough - but it is not the band playing live in someone’s living room.
Getting there puts the flyer among travelers very much similar dealing with very much the same things at the same time. Airport food, flight delays, seat pitch, luggage limitations, etc., etc.
Traveling light as virtue is heavy baggage exchanged for a 61 key synth and a worn tea kettle.
YMMV.
The places where you don't see another white person for weeks on end (mostly in the North West of Hanoi... especially Ha Giang area).
The places that are really hard to travel in if you don't have a local who can speak the language. Why hard? Because just getting food or even a place to crash in a random tiny town late at night (because it took you too long to drive there), is a real struggle.
Have you ever visualized your GPS tracks(if available) of your walks around a city?
Also, can you somehow turn off your subscription popup on your website just on the "About" page (where I'm not reading any of your content yet)?
You seem to have some nice candid photography.
This resonates so much with an experience I have had once. My wife and I visited Japan for a couple weeks and we went to 4 cities: 3 big classic ones (Tokyo, Kyoto, Hiroshima), and a small city that a relative used to live in: Beppu, which is not at all a tourist destination. In fact Beppu is so off the radar that one of the only guided tours available there to see local gardens and one monastery was by a guide who didn't even speak English. I didn't see a single restaurant menu in English. There was not much to do except randomly exploring neighborhoods and trying random shops, walking along canals, people-watching, bathing in the local hot springs (which were completely empty), etc. We were immersed in a tiny city with just people living their normal lives. And yet, Beppu was my most favorite experience in Japan. It felt like the real Japan.
I saw this recently with the issue of migrants in Martha's Vineyard, where people thought the entire island was populated by millionaires. There's a lot of wealthy people who go to these places for the summer, but the year-round population is much more complex. About 1/5 of the population are actually recent immigrants from Brazil[1], and if you look at the local school notices you'll see they're printed in English and Portuguese.
In an effort to get an "authentic" experience, it's possible to overlook the authentic experiences that are right in front of us.
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20220920163318/https://www.busin...
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> I prefer to travel to a city the time of year its most uncomfortable. So like Montreal in the winter, or New Delhi in the summer. I want to see a place when it’s at the apogee of its essence, not when it’s the most comfortable. A kinda, if you are going to do X really do X thing. It’s also when it’s a lot cheaper.
No, sorry, if you visit New Delhi in May, Tokyo in August or Montreal in February, you're going to have a pretty miserable time.
The beautiful summers are so great it makes the winters tolerable.
For example I always take visitors on a river/lake boat tour. Even though I grew up here it always blows my mind mind. The problems is those are completely shut down in the winter.
If someone wanted to visit me in the winter and “act like a local” I don’t know what I would suggest, maybe stay indoors where it’s warm.
As in all cases, careful research can reveal opportune times that you can balance with your other goals. If you want to see the cherry blossoms in Japan, you're stuck to a very particular time, for example; but I don't think they put away Mt Fiji until very late in winter.
For someone who has experience with such weather and has adapted to it, it's not a big deal.
I wouldn't presume to tell other people how they should feel, but giving them a head's up that it may be miserable if they're not ready for it is wise.
Winter in Montreal just needs the right clothing, but then you’re not packing light. A proper winter coat, gloves, boots, etc. will need way more space than exists in that tiny backpack.
Most countries have more than 4 season in practical terms though, and going during the "seasons inbetween" is my recommendation. In Australia, the indigenous have up to 6 different seasons they identified depending on the location/tribe, and they have more nuanced events expected for each season. Most countries are like that in real terms, so intimate knowledge can get you a great budget off-season holiday experience.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australian_seasons
Skiing in colorado is best end of March into April. Crowds are completely gone and snow is the best.
In the winter, it's a cold, wet and relatively low interaction time of the year. I assume some place have a high, low and dead season for tourism, and I personally aim for low, but to each their own. Quebec in general is a great place for winter vacation, just have to go outside Montreal island.
>I also bring lots of cash
Best travel advice I ever received, pre-Internet era (but still relevant):
Bring twice as much money, and half as many clothes, as you think you are going to need.