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Posted by u/Piero0909 3 years ago
Launch HN: Pana (YC S22) – Social Trust Banking with a US Latino Focus
Hey HN! We are Piero and Luis, co-founders at Pana (https://joinpana.com), a banking app that uses social trust to help people save money and access healthier and better financial products. We’re open to everyone, but are focusing on the 62M Latinos in the USA, a particularly under-served market that we know a lot about.

US Hispanics have largely been ignored by traditional banks [1], resulting in 5% of this population being unbanked and an additional 13% underbanked. This is mainly due to cultural differences and lack of trust, as well as in-person and Social Security Number requirements that exclude a significant number of people.

Why is this market under-served? In Latino communities, a lot of transactions take place within family and personal networks based on trust. But this trust network isn't connected to the standard banking system, and therefore they don't get access to the financial products they should, if their creditworthiness were evaluated properly.

In addition to remittances, Latinos commonly lend amongst each other. Lending circles are an example of trust and credit-worthiness currently outside the formal financial system, and are common among US Hispanics (e.g. [2]).

We’re working on a new “social banking” concept that is designed to be a better fit for the trust-based behaviors that are common and familiar to this community. Of course, everyone is welcome! But we believe that social banking is especially applicable to the US Latino market, so we’re focusing there for now.

It’s worth adding that a proper evaluation of trust-based payment behavior should help us lend to people who are currently being abused by predatory rates.

The inspiration for Pana came during my time as head of Scotiabank’s Caribbean & Central America Digital Factory, where I saw the power of building digital banking products for the Hispanic market. In stark contrast, I was surprised to learn on a trip to the US that without a Social Security Number I had to visit a traditional branch. After numerous signatures and hours of waiting, I was finally able to open the account—and then handed an ATM card instead of a debit card which would only allow me to do cash withdrawals and not the ability to make purchases. Adding insult to injury, I could never reach the bank officer again for support.

Because this was so surprising to me, I checked with friends and family, and all of them shared similar experiences. “Lack of trust,” “high fees,” and “cultural differences” were words I heard repeatedly.

It isn’t just end-customers who struggle with this system. Employers and sellers transacting with the 12M people living in the U.S. without a Social Security Number have to rely on cumbersome paper checks, cash or money order, and seriously, you have no idea how complicated it still is to perform basic transactions like sending money abroad.

Encountering this broken situation made me realize that a new startup would be best positioned to fix it. I had already, working with a team that’s knowledgeable about the Hispanic market, built digital banking solutions solving some of these issues—but only for big banks; smaller institutions tend to lack the scale, technology, and reach. However, the big banks are the ones who ignore this demographic in the first place because they have “bigger fish to fry”—a catch-22! The market, however, is easily large enough to support a new business, so we decided to build it ourselves.

With Pana, we’re applying the functionality and community-building aspects of familiar apps like WhatsApp to the banking space. Today, Whatsapp is widespread in the US Latino market -specially around informal peer-to-peer financial transactions-, proving that when one tool catches on, it will probably become the norm across this diaspora. We’re building on the social trust strongly embedded within the Latino culture to help achieve personal financial goals. Individuals can choose to share milestones and celebrate achievements with close friends or public groups of peers with similar needs. Within a group, payments and requests for payment among users can be made.

If this works, banking on social trust could potentially disrupt the $320B in yearly transactions through Alternative Financial Services (money orders, check cashers, payday loans, etc.), and who knows, maybe eventually the banking industry as a whole!

Latinos represent the fastest-growing diaspora in the USA with a 1.7T buying power and are often forgotten—in part, because we are not compelled to use existing banking products and therefore, no one can see how trustworthy many of us really are. We're now on a mission to remove these financial barriers.

We really hope you guys check out Pana and tell us any feedback you might have, and we look forward to your comments!

[1] https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2021-economic-we...

[2] https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/04/01/292580644...

geeny777 · 3 years ago
Aren't there regulations that make this illegal? Surely current online banks would let you open an account without an SSN if they were allowed to.
Piero0909 · 3 years ago
Some major banks do allow you to open an account without an SSN whenever you have a valid proof of address just like Pana. The difference is that they require you to visit the branch in person, we don't.
atlasunshrugged · 3 years ago
In that same vein, are there unique KYC/AML requirements that come about when dealing with customers who don't have an SSN? I've had the experience as an American banking in Europe and my impression was that banks really don't like to serve foreigners as customers because it has a higher overall risk profile (I know Americans also have unique additional reporting requirements but in general that was my understanding). Are there any regulations you have to deal with around immigration reporting?
rajasimon · 3 years ago
I never visited US but I have US bank account through Aeldra. And the required document it's just my Indian passport.
missedthecue · 3 years ago
I haven't figured that out. Bank of America required my SSN, but Varo, a neobank, did not require it. For my purposes they are functionally the same product, but maybe neobanks are excluded somehow?
neilparikh · 3 years ago
FWIW, I created an account at Bank of America without an SSN. This was a few years ago though.

I think a lot of this might inconsistent even across branches of the same bank.

the_svd_doctor · 3 years ago
It’s totally possible to open accounts without SSNs.. plenty do it. They still need to do their KYC though.
djbusby · 3 years ago
How to KYC w/o SSN or other things the Gov wants to track us with?
el-salvador · 3 years ago
I've seen some banking forms that ask for passport number, visa number or foreign tax ID when no SSN is available.
civilized · 3 years ago
It looks like you basically combined FDIC-insured bank accounts with Venmo-like payment functionality and some other stuff? That seems pretty useful.

But currently Latinos mostly use Whatsapp for payments? Is that right?

Piero0909 · 3 years ago
In part yes. We've also implemented free remittances up to $300 making it 10x better and cheaper to send money for 90% of use cases. Thanks!
toomuchtodo · 3 years ago
Kudos to the free remittance feature, genuine social good there. Wishing y’all success!
atlasunshrugged · 3 years ago
That's really interesting, how do you manage the conversion for the person accepting the funds abroad? Generally you have to tap into a partner network you build right? Or are you partnering up with some existing provider to use their infrastructure?
aaaaaaaaata · 3 years ago
Are you avoiding mentioning ETH/cryptocurrency things because you're unlikely to integrate them, or because it's not super popular to talk about that right now?
el-salvador · 3 years ago
> But currently Latinos mostly use Whatsapp for payments? Is that right?

WhatsApp is widely used for almost everything in Latin America. But it doesn't support native in app payments yet.

They tried to do that in Brazil in 2020 but they were slowed down or halted for regulatory concerns.

Something we do very often is to share online payment links and bank transfer screenshots via WhatsApp.

thankful69 · 3 years ago
Zelle in the US is the most common form of instant payment, at least in South Florida.
millzlane · 3 years ago
It's becoming better. But my companies credit union doesn't have Zelle yet. While my state employee credit union does.
superjose · 3 years ago
I remember back in 2016 when I traveled to the US to get my master's (proud latino over here).

It was cold af, but the college experience was awesome: met a lot of different cultures, made some great friendships, and learned a lot... But...

As every new person to a new country (in a foreign language), there are many hurdles, and it's impossible to forget how painful it was to open a bank account.

It took me a painful 3 hours and several voodoo tactics with a relative to finally open a checking bank account within Bank of America.

No SSN, no credit score, no records; it was as if I didn't exist. I needed the bank account because it was how I was supposed to receive my funds and live!

Finally... just finally after that awful experience was over, it went buttery smooth. Love the technology that US banks provide

Nonetheless, after 2 years, my study period was over and I left the US (I do visit it yearly for tourism), and left my BofA account opened with some $.

As it was normal, my debit card expired, and I had to issue a new one to access my account! BoFa requires you to use your debit card PIN as a 2FA step.

The problem is that the only address I have is a courier. And while I can receive almost anything, I don't know why, even after verifying my address, it never seem to reach it.

Therefore there's no way to get back to your account, unless you spend 1 hour of your day dealing with customer support.

In addition, BoFA has geoblocking outside the US. I have to connect through a VPN and use Google Hangouts (to prevent expensive international calls) to reach them.

Just plain awful.

If you asked me I do miss having a US card because there are sites that only allow you to use US issued cards. For one, I couldn't buy AppleCare for my father's MacBook because Apple wouldn't allow me to use foreign cards.

I have no idea whether this service (Pana) would do any justice, but if it works as well as the founders are envisioning to, then have my blessings.

We all need to be represented when we travel abroad, especially the marginalized Latino community.

csomar · 3 years ago
BoA just sucks for foreigners. But not all banks are like that. Wells fargo will allow you to have a foreign number and send your debit/card overseas too.
Piero0909 · 3 years ago
I so feel your pain having lived it in flesh and bones and yes, we're just getting started but those are the pain-points we're working on fixing. Thank you for the feedback and we hope you try Pana. We do not have hidden fees like minimum balance or even debit card fee
berns · 3 years ago
He said he no longer lives in the United States. Did I understand correctly that you need to live in the US to open a Pana account?
superjose · 3 years ago
Oh, that sounds interesting. I'll give it a shot!!! Thanks!
jamal-kumar · 3 years ago
Funny you mention scotiabank in the caribbean/central america. I specifically signed up for them so I could use them in that region, they told me yeah you're good to go for your account services there by the people at the bank in Canada... NOPE, can't even make a deposit or anything with this card, the banker in Canada was wrong. Oh well at least there's no transaction fees on the card whenever I use it.

So my question about your company is this (Great idea by the way) - How well do your accounts work for travelling outside of the USA?

Piero0909 · 3 years ago
Honestly, and dont take my word for it, the international Visa Debit card you get when opening an account works flawlessly!
csomar · 3 years ago
Not wanting to sound negative but can you explain how you are not going to shutdown in a year.

Cheese recently announced the closure of all accounts by the next month. It has the same ideas as your startup (except it’s targeting Asians).

Piero0909 · 3 years ago
Thats ok :) Its a completely different segment and our early traction as well as our insights for whats to come make us very optimistic for the future.
thorncorona · 3 years ago
That doesn't answer parent comment's question at all.
trevmckendrick · 3 years ago
Where did you see Cheese is closing accounts?
csomar · 3 years ago
They recently sent an email about their winding down.
santiagobasulto · 3 years ago
This is a great endeavor! I add 1 extra “niche” for you there in case it helps. People working remotely, but want to have a US bank account.

It happens A LOT with freelancers from Argentina/Uruguay. If you live in Arg, but work for a US company, you want to use a US bank account.

A lot of people I know are now transitioning to Wise.

firekvz · 3 years ago
Wise bans venezuelans, cubans

Constatly closes central americans account, perma holding with no support answers to colombians

Instant closes latin accounts of people who have emigrated to the US ilegally/refugees/asylum

Has no chile/peru outgoing transactions

Bolivia doesnt exist in wise

It seems like they are actually making an effort no serve latin america or kick out the latin america users.

So much for 'borderless accounts'

Aparently borderless for them means people living in SF sending money to people in NY

dont__panic · 3 years ago
What makes Pana specific to Latinos? It sounds like this product is relevant to pretty much any immigrant who's struggling to set up banking in the US while occasionally exchanging money with folks back home. I can imagine folks from every ethnic background and 6 of 7 continents using this product.

I guess it's a market focus thing -- appeal specifically to Latinos to build a small, dense network before you branch out to other backgrounds?

Just feels a bit weird to claim to be "inclusive" when you also claim that you're for one specific ethnic group.

neither_color · 3 years ago
Within that specific ethnic group there are several national backgrounds. Even the word "pana" itself, which is like "bro" is not used by all the different subgroups of latinos(some might say compa, parce, chero, etc). I like the name because it's easy to say and sounds like "pan-american." I just think you have to start somewhere. Where I've lived there seem to be just as many South Asian and East African immigrants as latinos.
Piero0909 · 3 years ago
You're exactly right! This is just a starting point as we're for everyone. Latinos is a segment we truly understand and therefore it made sense to start there. Pana means "Pal", and we believe thats the type of friendly banking all migrants need when coming to the USA
mritchie712 · 3 years ago
Counterpoint: Don't change anything. Building something that is clearly made for "you" (as the customer) is one of the advantages a startup has. If someone in your segment gets to your landing page, they can quickly see this is custom built for them. If you build for everyone, you effectively build for no one.
29athrowaway · 3 years ago
I think you may be conflating a few things here.

Being Latino and not being eligible for a social security number (and by extension having a bank account) are different things.

There are millions of Latinos that are citizens, some others are permanent residents, temporary workers, fiancees or otherwise people eligible for a SSN... Some others are refugees under TPS, some others are in DACA, and so on and on.

To conflate Latino and undocumented immigrant is upsetting as fuck, it reinforces negative stereotypes that already cause significant problems like citizens being assaulted, insulted, discriminated against, kidnapped by ICE, harassed by TSA, CBP and other agencies.

Conflating undocumented immigrant and Latino is a disservice to the community at large.

Another thing is: how do you guarantee your service won't be used to finance or otherwise facilitate human trafficking, smuggling, prostitution, extortion or any other illegal activity? Will your service adhere to the Bank Secrecy Act and other regulations?

Piero0909 · 3 years ago
Millions of migrants including Latinos come to the USA legally and while they go through the process of getting an SSN usually some time passes while one needs a bank account for many reasons. During that period, Pana offers a 10x better experience. We at Pana are solving problems we've personally experienced. The Pana bank account is FDIC insured and compliant with all required regulations through our banking partner Piermont Bank.
29athrowaway · 3 years ago
And there are many more millions who are already here, and have been here for generations, and are US citizens.

The way you use language to promote your service doesn't reflect that.

You may want to say "Latino immigrants" or "Latino tourists", since those are small subsets of "Latino". Be specific.

Do you think Latinos are people that "come to the USA", as if they were all tourists and immigrants? Latinos are about 1/5th of the US population.

Why are you portraying Latinos as a network of 60 million of people informally lending money directly to each other? Do you even know 1 Latino person?

Do you think all Latinos are buying houses lending money to each other? as if any realtor would be remotely OK with that? What the FUCK

User23 · 3 years ago
Interestingly enough, in Southern California a significant percentage of border agents are Chicanos. Border security and immigration policy isn’t a race issue, no matter what certain ideologues would have you believe.

It’s interesting to me that many Chicano families can trace their history back to the old Spanish Empire. They’ve literally been Americans longer than nearly all Anglos.

missedthecue · 3 years ago
"To conflate Latino and undocumented immigrant is upsetting as fuck"

Or... just an accurate perception of reality? Turns out, not many Namibians or Mongolians make it to the USA undocumented. This doesn't have to be a politically charged observation unless you're trying to force it to be one.

29athrowaway · 3 years ago
What do you think is the proportion of legal and illegal Latinos?

What you say implies something close to 99% of Latinos are undocumented, and that's not even remotely true.

If there are 60 million Latinos in the US, and 11 undocumented immigrants of all national origins, that means your statement is false as well as intellectually dishonest.

And some of those might as well be descendants of US citizens removed via ethnic cleansing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation