Looks easy and obvious, but getting the ankle and hip mobility required to squat properly this is quite difficult for us who spend most of their in front of computers. When I started lifting, my squats sucked, and I didn't even realize before I hired a trainer who told me. I had to significantly reduce my squat weight and start from scratch paying attention to doing deep squats with good form.
It took me about a year of consistent mobility training to get the ankle mobility and hip internal rotation required to squat right.
Though if you wear lifting shoes that's a nice shortcut. It can reduce the mobility requirements significantly. I prefer to squat without lifting shoes just because I want to be able to do it naturally, and I don't compete or anything like that.
I had a similar experience with a trainer. Did squats, said my form was mostly good but wanted to test some things out. Did a quick ankle mobility check, saw that it was a problem. Slipped some 5lb weights under my heels, told me to squat again and it was an incredible difference. The balancing was so much easier and it felt much better when going lower. Really showed the value a trainer could bring. That was day 1.
Shoes, wraps, belts, heel chicks etc are not a short cut. They are a training aid.
Without them your mobility may be bad. You may not have the right tension in places. These tools help get the right feel and you can train under load. Increasing your max load which translates to an increase in your unaided load.
Wraps absolutely are a short cut in that every lifter can instantly lift more wearing them due to the elastic tension they're able to provide.
I don't think there is much evidence suggesting training squats wrapped would then result in the unwrapped squat being stronger for an elite lifter. I'd actually be concerned that the technical changes and also the different strength curve for a wrapped squat might throw off someone's regular squat.
I think it's more that you now rely on a piece of equipment to do your workout. Say you're on holiday, you can't just hop into a random gym and get your leg workout done. You'd have to bring your squat shoes with you.
I’ve been on a reboot too. I squatted through bad mobility for years and got quite strong, but reinforced all of the bad movement patterns. It’s been hard to unlearn that muscle memory.
Opening up and releasing my chest, t-spine and pelvic floor has been a long and slow process (8 months so far) but I’m finally relearning proper movement.
It's really important to get good advice too, sometimes your gym-buds can see you're not doing it right, but they don't know it's because of mobility issues so they just think you're not listening.
I was lucky to keep my mobility from rollerblading and riding as a kid, so when I moved into powerlifting after 5 years of mostly sedentary computer work, I was still pretty loose.
I am horribly inflexible _except_ for this one thing. As a kid we used to always play and rest in a deep squat position, and it just stayed that way growing up. It's still my default resting position on hikes or at the gym. As a result I can squat really deep, but ask me to touch my toes and I'll get shin-depth at best.
Sometimes I have wondered if having no resistance at the bottom when I squat is actually hindering me. I've seen people kind of "bounce" out of their squat, as if the resistance they hit at the bottom acts like a sort of spring past their tension point. Whereas in my case, there is no "bounce" and no resistance. If I kept going as low as I can, I'd just end up with my butt on the floor in the squat with nothing springing me back. In the end, I don't go too far below parallel with a loaded barbell because I feel the rest of my squat technique and power output gets compromised at that depth.
The longer your femur (taller body) the harder to deep squat since you need more forward flexion on the ankles. Lifting shoes are not a shortcut but a solution.
Check out the Squat University youtube channel for instructional videos on "Banded Ankle Mobilizations".
Completely changed the game for my squats, with instant results. I incorporate them (along with a similar hip mobilization drill) before all of my squat workouts. Highly recommended.
You can find lots of good exercises and drills on YouTube, but are you sure you are asking the right question? Are you 100% sure that ankle mobility is your problem?
In my case, I thought that ankle mobility is my problem but after working on my ankles for several months I didn't see the huge improvement I expected, and only then I realized that I have other mobility deficiencies such as hip flexion and rotation and my spine.
If you are not sure what your problem is, you should hire and expert for an assessment. A lot of the stuff you find online is great, but only if you exactly know what you're looking for.
We’re told that you need to squat with a vertical spine and vertical shins. Even high school kids figure out that’s impossible to do.
I’m in full alignment with the article: squatting is just about balance in the end: how can you keep your center of gravity over mid foot as you bring your hips below (or near) your knees and back up again. You might find cues that help you find a good, repeatable position (break at the hips, stay tall, weight back, drop into your ankles, knees out, etc), but that’s personal to you. If you squat a lot, you’ll find the positions that knock you off balance, or bother your hips, or cause strain on your ankles, or whatever, and learn to avoid them with cues that help you find the groove where nothing hurts.
There's so much "bro-science" when it comes to exercise. I suspect many of this nonsense comes from people getting injured by doing too much too soon, and then generalizing it. Like toes in squats, or pelvic tilt in squats, or locking knees in leg presses. There's some truth that all of these can be dangerous if you're a beginner and you're handling more weight than you should. But the whole point of exercise is that your body adapts. You need to give it time. Tendons, ligaments, and joints take much longer to "get stronger" than muscle does.
This is a super interesting case of how outdated ideas (ie. knees can _never_ go over toes) become pervasive in people's minds, almost to the point of a myth that is very hard to dispel. The story of kneesovertoesguy is amazing btw, I recommend checking his podcast episodes/youtube channel and training program (https://www.atgonlinecoaching.com/) which focus on knee and lower body strengthening that uses exercises that were a no-go for many experts not too long ago.
(EDIT: sorry for the plug, I'm not related to kneesovertoesguy or his business in any way -- I just noticed the landing page I shared above is literally a call to pay for his courses. I'm not and never been a subscriber but do enjoy and have been seeing real benefits from doing exercises he goes through on his youtube for free. So I hope it helps!)
His advice is good for one (albeit common) type of knee injury. It's a bit annoying he think he's solved all people's knee issues. Or, I guess it's just so everyone will buy his program.
It also irks me how he sometimes play into a "big pharma" kinda conspiracy. That "everyone" says you shouldn't have knees in front of toes, but he is the single person looking through this ruse and selling you the secret.
FWIW I've had patellar tendonitis before, and the rehab I got was doing eccentric squats on an inclined surface, explicitly to get my knees over the toes and help put a balanced load on the tendon. So his "secret" has been the common approach for at least a decade.
But my experience is concordant with the submitted article: always being told to keep the knees over the toes. I don’t know what this has to do with big Pharma and it’s not a conspiracy, but it seems to have achieved common knowledge status and needs to be changed.
not sure what videos you watched, but he has plenty of videos citing his sources of work done in the 70s and 80s. He also recommends far more and varied movements than the split squat.
I've always found something a bit off about this guy, so since finding out I feel I have to mention in regularly when he comes up: he's a Scientologist.
Seen this come up a few times - this may be true, but you have to separate the art from the artist in this case (in my opinion). What he teaches has solid foundations, with multiple testimonies from legitimate athletes. Whether he believes weak knees come from ancient alien souls is not my concern, but his methodologies to fix such ailments are absolutely credible.
thanks for the heads up! Hopefully Marcus Filly isn't a Scientologist because they both sometimes do workouts together. I really like Fillys programming but ... if so, no money goes towards Scientology.
I've always found the way he talks about "world-class" and "bulletproof" knees to be pretty off-putting. These are nonsense terms with nothing but anecdata to back the claims
Since this is HN, does anyone know of new advances in cartilage repair? I just a deep cartilage defect in my femur at the knee joint because one stupid squash game. Reading about osteoarthritis is so depressing. Take care of your knees!
There are two mainstream competing methods – microfracturing and autologous transplantation of osteochondral stem cells ("autologous" meaning "from you" as opposed to "from someone else"l this procedure is sometimes called OAT – osteochondral autologous transplantation) – that can be applied if you have a focal defect. There is good evidence that both are better than doing nothing. By "good evidence" I mean "a meta-analysis of peer-reviewed randomised clinical trials" – see [1] for microfracturing and [2, 3] for OAT. I would argue that there is no clear winner.
I had a bucket-handle tear of my right lateral meniscus, chondromalacia patellae grade 3 and a patellar tendinopathy. I was operated on for these about a year ago and am only really just able to walk again. I also have at least two herniated and seven prolapsed spinal discs with cord moulding and neuropathy and neurological symptoms.
Videos like this make me feel a bit sick, to be honest.
Depending on how far off the deep-end you want to go, you can look into: peptides (BPC-157, TB-500), Human Growth Hormone and Platelet-Rich Plasma injections (PRP). There might be more stuff out there now, it's been a few years since I looked into it for a SLAP tear in my shoulder.
If you are in the USA, look into "anti aging" or "longevity" clinics. It's basically gymbro MD's that will prescribe you that stuff for money. Then at least you can be fairly certain that you know what you're injecting. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of the dodgy websites/alibaba for acquiring the stuff.
Obviously there is no definitive proof that the stuff works or if it's safe, otherwise it would be significantly more common. You can google, there are many small scale studies done on those compounds of varying degrees of quality. It all depends on your risk-tolerances etc. Ideally you'd be somewhere in the US near one of those clinics and could speak to a real doctor about your options, and not a random idiot from hackernews :D.
Similar situation here. Trying to go without surgery.
Doctors said my partial ACL tear wouldn't heal. They were wrong. But it took a lot of rehab and learning new movement patterns.
They're saying the same thing now. I'm hoping it's another case of, statistically these things don't heal because people don't change their movement patterns, not because it's impossible.
Besides a light brace, stretching and massage, I am taking collagen supplements. Considering PRP.
It seems like most doctors and your average physical therapist, lack the knowledge on what can be achived with a conservative approach. Just google what knee injury Connor McDavid (Arguably the best and most dynamic player in the NHL) had, and the sucessful non-surgical rehab protocal he went through. Most of his doctors were pressuring him to go the surgical route.
Nutrition and regular movement. Don't worry, you'll be fine, had a similar thing a few years ago, all gone. Be careful about surgeries, last time I checked the consensus seemed to be converging on that in this case they're largely placebos.
I was way too heavy when I started getting fit again so squats hurt my
knees and I frequency lost balance. Switching to supported squats with
a table and executing them really slowly worked wonders [1]. Now my
legs are strong again and some weight has come off, my form for
unsupported bodyweight squats is great and I can do dozens without
joint pain.
[1[ advice in Wade's convict conditioning programme.
If you're doing ATG squats and you're over, say, 5'10"ish (though there's skeletal variation), it's impossible to do a squat without the knees going over the toes (simply because of the proportions of your femur to your tibia). I'm pretty sure this myth started on idiotic bro-science forums like bodybuilding.com or the like.
On the contrary, there is absolutely no way this started on bodybuilding.com. Even a quick Google search attributes Karl Klein with this brilliant myth
Readit News
It took me about a year of consistent mobility training to get the ankle mobility and hip internal rotation required to squat right.
Though if you wear lifting shoes that's a nice shortcut. It can reduce the mobility requirements significantly. I prefer to squat without lifting shoes just because I want to be able to do it naturally, and I don't compete or anything like that.
Without them your mobility may be bad. You may not have the right tension in places. These tools help get the right feel and you can train under load. Increasing your max load which translates to an increase in your unaided load.
I don't think there is much evidence suggesting training squats wrapped would then result in the unwrapped squat being stronger for an elite lifter. I'd actually be concerned that the technical changes and also the different strength curve for a wrapped squat might throw off someone's regular squat.
Opening up and releasing my chest, t-spine and pelvic floor has been a long and slow process (8 months so far) but I’m finally relearning proper movement.
I was lucky to keep my mobility from rollerblading and riding as a kid, so when I moved into powerlifting after 5 years of mostly sedentary computer work, I was still pretty loose.
Sometimes I have wondered if having no resistance at the bottom when I squat is actually hindering me. I've seen people kind of "bounce" out of their squat, as if the resistance they hit at the bottom acts like a sort of spring past their tension point. Whereas in my case, there is no "bounce" and no resistance. If I kept going as low as I can, I'd just end up with my butt on the floor in the squat with nothing springing me back. In the end, I don't go too far below parallel with a loaded barbell because I feel the rest of my squat technique and power output gets compromised at that depth.
Completely changed the game for my squats, with instant results. I incorporate them (along with a similar hip mobilization drill) before all of my squat workouts. Highly recommended.
In my case, I thought that ankle mobility is my problem but after working on my ankles for several months I didn't see the huge improvement I expected, and only then I realized that I have other mobility deficiencies such as hip flexion and rotation and my spine.
If you are not sure what your problem is, you should hire and expert for an assessment. A lot of the stuff you find online is great, but only if you exactly know what you're looking for.
I’m in full alignment with the article: squatting is just about balance in the end: how can you keep your center of gravity over mid foot as you bring your hips below (or near) your knees and back up again. You might find cues that help you find a good, repeatable position (break at the hips, stay tall, weight back, drop into your ankles, knees out, etc), but that’s personal to you. If you squat a lot, you’ll find the positions that knock you off balance, or bother your hips, or cause strain on your ankles, or whatever, and learn to avoid them with cues that help you find the groove where nothing hurts.
(EDIT: sorry for the plug, I'm not related to kneesovertoesguy or his business in any way -- I just noticed the landing page I shared above is literally a call to pay for his courses. I'm not and never been a subscriber but do enjoy and have been seeing real benefits from doing exercises he goes through on his youtube for free. So I hope it helps!)
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCGybO-bWZ3W6URh42sdMQiw
It also irks me how he sometimes play into a "big pharma" kinda conspiracy. That "everyone" says you shouldn't have knees in front of toes, but he is the single person looking through this ruse and selling you the secret.
FWIW I've had patellar tendonitis before, and the rehab I got was doing eccentric squats on an inclined surface, explicitly to get my knees over the toes and help put a balanced load on the tendon. So his "secret" has been the common approach for at least a decade.
Maybe KneesOverToesGuy is a scientologist and knows a lot about knees!
It's not like being a scientologist makes you completely incompetent.
I had a bucket-handle tear of my right lateral meniscus, chondromalacia patellae grade 3 and a patellar tendinopathy. I was operated on for these about a year ago and am only really just able to walk again. I also have at least two herniated and seven prolapsed spinal discs with cord moulding and neuropathy and neurological symptoms.
Videos like this make me feel a bit sick, to be honest.
[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00264-011-1364-x [2] https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/html/10.10... [3] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.arthro.2016.05.038
If you are in the USA, look into "anti aging" or "longevity" clinics. It's basically gymbro MD's that will prescribe you that stuff for money. Then at least you can be fairly certain that you know what you're injecting. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of the dodgy websites/alibaba for acquiring the stuff.
Obviously there is no definitive proof that the stuff works or if it's safe, otherwise it would be significantly more common. You can google, there are many small scale studies done on those compounds of varying degrees of quality. It all depends on your risk-tolerances etc. Ideally you'd be somewhere in the US near one of those clinics and could speak to a real doctor about your options, and not a random idiot from hackernews :D.
Have also used TB-500, and a dozen other peptides, but for injuries there's nothing like BPC.
Unfortunately the feds are starting to crack down both SARMs and Peptides so they aren't as easy to get as they were 5 years ago =/
Doctors said my partial ACL tear wouldn't heal. They were wrong. But it took a lot of rehab and learning new movement patterns.
They're saying the same thing now. I'm hoping it's another case of, statistically these things don't heal because people don't change their movement patterns, not because it's impossible.
Besides a light brace, stretching and massage, I am taking collagen supplements. Considering PRP.
Good luck with your journey!
Deleted Comment
[1[ advice in Wade's convict conditioning programme.