They're measuring efficiency in miles per joule, but really the output of a race car is entertainment. You want the most entertainment per joule.
If you make the cars smaller (call the scale s), they have a smaller frontal area by s^2. They can also go slower and look the same on camera, again by a factor of s. Since energy consumption scales as speed^3 * frontal area, you get a remarkable
power ∝ s^5
So if you make half-sized cars you can use 1/32 of the energy. And you can have an identical visual spectacle as long as you scale the camera positions, reduce the tire grip by s^2, and find some 3' tall drivers.
> Inside, an electric motor can deliver 350kW of power (470BHP) to reach top speeds of 200MPH (320 km/h). For reference, Formula 1 cars average speeds between 220 and 230MPH during a Grand Prix.
There's either some typos here, or just bad writing.
The speed record for Formula 1 looks to be 231.4 mph, so the E top speed looks to be pretty close. That's cool! I wonder if we'll see the top races turn into electric at some point.
I miss the old days when we had 1000+ HP monsters driven with one hand on the wheel the other on the shifter through the crazy tight turns at Monaco. Yes it was insane and dangerous but it was incredible.
Speaking of the old days: I miss the old days when yellow flags were for a section of the track, and there were no safety cars. Last year's F1 season finale was an embarrassment. I'm very happy that Max won, I'm just not happy about how it happened...
I realize safety is important, however I think just as much safety can be achieved if drivers respect yellow flags and are heavily penalized for violations. There is just no reason to effectively stop racing on a multi-mile circuit just because a car went off in one corner. We should go back to the old rules of yellow flags and/or a stop and restart if the track is fully blocked.
The problem with this comparison is that F1 cars have a lot more downforce (and therefore drag) than FE cars, which means that F1 cars have a relatively low top speed.
Add to this the fact that race distance is a lot shorter in FE and that they race in street circuits where time with full throttle is low and brake regen is high and suddenly Formula e is not very impressive.
My take is that what makes a sport exciting for spectators is different from what makes a sport exciting for the participants, which is also different from an exciting sports spec sheet.
As with all engineering there's a tradeoffs dance. The F1 one cars pull insane G's in the bends, and all that downforce requires a lot of power. I'd like to know what kind of g-forces those FE cars reach. I think the best way to compare the overall performance is to compare the average speed on the same track.
I think Formula E is kind of useless. Racing competitions can be a good engine for innovation, but last I heard Formula E has all cars using a standard battery. Isn't the battery the biggest thing we want to improve on EVs?
They hold the races in cities instead of "real" race tracks, which I guess is cool if that's your home town but as a (lukewarm) racing fan I would rather see tracks I know. I wonder if they also want to avoid comparisons with ICE race cars. The Gen 2 Formula E did 0-60 in 2.8s... which is achievable in some ICE street cars. Hopefully the Gen 3 is more impressive.
Formula E is pretty interesting. All the races are on YouTube. It’s enjoyable, and the races have some interesting gimmicks that electric cars can give you.
First, the race is n minutes + 2 laps instead of a set distance. Functionally, it’s not really any different from a regular distance race, since you have to be on the lead lap to win. The other gimmick is that video game speed boosts are a thing. You can drive through areas to have your motor run at a higher output for a limited time.
I do like the aesthetics for the new cars, and the battery technology has improved from the earliest version where the drivers had to change cars in the middle of the race because the batteries were too weak.
I've never heard of such races until a few days ago when I was in Monaco. The city was getting ready for the race and they were heavily promoting the electric part (especially in a large meeting center that was expected to hist all things electric).
I will gladly have a look at the YouTube recordings of the races as I am wondering whether they are basically silent compared to their fuel-based counterparts.
The silence factor of a car is really something. I recently got a hybrid car (self-recharging version) and I love the sound of the first meters, solely electric. My next car will be a 100% electric one for sure.
I do agree about liking my electric cars silent. I recently saw some electric cars advertising “performance sounds”, which I thought was dumb as hell. There’s even a startup to add these sounds to your electric car [0].
I find this even dumber than the Jaguar roadster I test drove that had what as effectively a “louder” button. It shot fuel directly into the exhaust to make the engine louder while simultaneously increasing your emissions and decreasing your fuel economy. Somehow this was a selling point, I guess for people with severe self esteem issues.
> line with Formula E’s achievement as the first net-zero sport
I don't understand how can they claim such things, what is the definition for "net-zero".
Doesn't matter how optimized, say, the production of a car is, say it produces 10 metric tons of CO2, how are they gonna offset it? And all the rubber, travelling, batteries, etc?
> These unavoidable emissions from the past six seasons have now been certified as offset through investment in Gold Standard and Verified Carbon Standard UN projects in-line with the UNFCCC’s Clean Development Mechanism.
> From biogas energy generation in China to landfill gas energy generation in Mexico and wind power energy generation in Morocco, the offsetting projects Formula E has partnered with are carefully selected based on their social or ecological benefits, and on their location, all of which are situated in regions that we’ve raced in, from Season 1 to-date.
Carbon offsets are super complicated, potentially shady, and I don’t fully understand them, but the gist of it is that they pay money to companies to either not produce carbon that they otherwise would have, or use the money to install and operate equipment in factories and powerplants that captures carbon before it goes out into the world. You can also do things that pull carbon out of regular air but I think the first two options are so much more efficient that they dominate the market. It seems like the system could be gamed, but as far as I know it broadly works.
> Although, relative to ICE racing, the bar is low.
You do realize the actual ICE emissions dwarf in comparison to the whole picture right? If you take Formula 1 for example, they run 20 cars that will each burn through about 200-300kg of fossil fuel per race weekend. Even so, the actual emissions from the cars only accounts for 0.7% of the total CO2 emissions of a whole season of F1. Almost half the emissions are just from transporting equipment from race to race (via air, sea and land). About a quarter is transporting the personnel. Almost all of these still apply to Formula E.
most emission from ICE racing (at least in the high level series where they do a lot of traveling) is from the planes and ships that transport the team members and equipment, and I imagine that's the same for Formula E
> Gen3 won’t rely solely on batteries for power. Around 40 percent of the energy cars will use during an E-Prix will be produced by regenerative braking.
Definitely bad writing. Where do they think the energy that got the car up to speed originally (which is then partially recouped via regenerative braking) came from?
BEVs are great for hill climb (Pikes Peak record held by incredible VW BEV https://youtu.be/2K2paIN20mU) and for low end drag racing (NEDRA in the US http://www.nedra.com/record_holders.html), but for circuit racing they are years away from being able to run more than a few laps at a time with sub formula III performance.
I'd be interested to see more hybrid racing, which would help with hybrid street R&D, but the BEV world is imo currently limited to sprint performance, not multiple lap competitive racing
It is my understanding that as long as you're using an epoxy matrix the best you can do is "down cycle", i.e. you shred your part, literally burn off the resin and reuse the scraps with new binder into e.g. airplane trays.
It sounds like maybe switching to a thermoplastic ("remeltable") matrix might be better but it will probably take decade(s) to research how to optimally produce and use those new parts.
According to Wikipedia, all "Highest average" speed records (for race, lap, and qualifying) happened in Monza, and they're all around 250km/h, or 155mph.
Readit News
If you make the cars smaller (call the scale s), they have a smaller frontal area by s^2. They can also go slower and look the same on camera, again by a factor of s. Since energy consumption scales as speed^3 * frontal area, you get a remarkable
So if you make half-sized cars you can use 1/32 of the energy. And you can have an identical visual spectacle as long as you scale the camera positions, reduce the tire grip by s^2, and find some 3' tall drivers.There's either some typos here, or just bad writing.
The speed record for Formula 1 looks to be 231.4 mph, so the E top speed looks to be pretty close. That's cool! I wonder if we'll see the top races turn into electric at some point.
https://youtu.be/auXfAHHNSFo
I realize safety is important, however I think just as much safety can be achieved if drivers respect yellow flags and are heavily penalized for violations. There is just no reason to effectively stop racing on a multi-mile circuit just because a car went off in one corner. We should go back to the old rules of yellow flags and/or a stop and restart if the track is fully blocked.
https://youtu.be/VkckEO5ONPY
Add to this the fact that race distance is a lot shorter in FE and that they race in street circuits where time with full throttle is low and brake regen is high and suddenly Formula e is not very impressive.
They hold the races in cities instead of "real" race tracks, which I guess is cool if that's your home town but as a (lukewarm) racing fan I would rather see tracks I know. I wonder if they also want to avoid comparisons with ICE race cars. The Gen 2 Formula E did 0-60 in 2.8s... which is achievable in some ICE street cars. Hopefully the Gen 3 is more impressive.
First, the race is n minutes + 2 laps instead of a set distance. Functionally, it’s not really any different from a regular distance race, since you have to be on the lead lap to win. The other gimmick is that video game speed boosts are a thing. You can drive through areas to have your motor run at a higher output for a limited time.
I do like the aesthetics for the new cars, and the battery technology has improved from the earliest version where the drivers had to change cars in the middle of the race because the batteries were too weak.
I will gladly have a look at the YouTube recordings of the races as I am wondering whether they are basically silent compared to their fuel-based counterparts.
The silence factor of a car is really something. I recently got a hybrid car (self-recharging version) and I love the sound of the first meters, solely electric. My next car will be a 100% electric one for sure.
I do agree about liking my electric cars silent. I recently saw some electric cars advertising “performance sounds”, which I thought was dumb as hell. There’s even a startup to add these sounds to your electric car [0].
I find this even dumber than the Jaguar roadster I test drove that had what as effectively a “louder” button. It shot fuel directly into the exhaust to make the engine louder while simultaneously increasing your emissions and decreasing your fuel economy. Somehow this was a selling point, I guess for people with severe self esteem issues.
[0] https://www.thedrive.com/news/42734/this-startup-will-give-y...
I don't understand how can they claim such things, what is the definition for "net-zero".
Doesn't matter how optimized, say, the production of a car is, say it produces 10 metric tons of CO2, how are they gonna offset it? And all the rubber, travelling, batteries, etc?
> From biogas energy generation in China to landfill gas energy generation in Mexico and wind power energy generation in Morocco, the offsetting projects Formula E has partnered with are carefully selected based on their social or ecological benefits, and on their location, all of which are situated in regions that we’ve raced in, from Season 1 to-date.
[1] https://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2020/september/three-ste...
https://www.goldstandard.org/our-story/gold-standard-feature...
How can you judge them while openly admitting you don’t understand them?
- https://www.fiaformulae.com/en/discover/sustainability/net-z...
- https://f.fiaformulae.com/r/sustainability/FE-Sustainability...
Not clear which emissions are being offset. Although, relative to ICE racing, the bar is low.
You do realize the actual ICE emissions dwarf in comparison to the whole picture right? If you take Formula 1 for example, they run 20 cars that will each burn through about 200-300kg of fossil fuel per race weekend. Even so, the actual emissions from the cars only accounts for 0.7% of the total CO2 emissions of a whole season of F1. Almost half the emissions are just from transporting equipment from race to race (via air, sea and land). About a quarter is transporting the personnel. Almost all of these still apply to Formula E.
Definitely bad writing. Where do they think the energy that got the car up to speed originally (which is then partially recouped via regenerative braking) came from?
I mean by your argument, ICEs are solar powered, right? :-)
And yes fundamentally it comes from their batteries first and foremost.
I'd be interested to see more hybrid racing, which would help with hybrid street R&D, but the BEV world is imo currently limited to sprint performance, not multiple lap competitive racing
It is my understanding that as long as you're using an epoxy matrix the best you can do is "down cycle", i.e. you shred your part, literally burn off the resin and reuse the scraps with new binder into e.g. airplane trays.
It sounds like maybe switching to a thermoplastic ("remeltable") matrix might be better but it will probably take decade(s) to research how to optimally produce and use those new parts.
This must be a typo. Maybe kph? 220mph is maybe like a theoretical max speed, but certainly not an average over a race.
According to Wikipedia, all "Highest average" speed records (for race, lap, and qualifying) happened in Monza, and they're all around 250km/h, or 155mph.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_race_recor...