I know the title is the title on the actual article, but it's the Chinese Red Cross, not China itself. National Red Cross Societies are independent of the country's government. They may receive government funding but they decide what they do with the money themselves.
"The Movement is independent. The National Societies, while auxiliaries in the humanitarian services of their governments and subject to the laws of their respective countries, must always maintain their autonomy so that they may be able at all times to act in accordance with the principles of the Movement."
The current president of the Chinese Red Cross is currently vice-chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, and previously the Minister of Health.
Very hard to believe this is something that could happen without the CCP’s politburo approval
I think there is a distinction to be made here. It seems unlikely that the politburo would bother approving such a small item as 5m yuan (Less than a million dollar. If you see this as the action of China the country, then a million dollar is basically a symbolic gesture.). However he would not have dared do it if he thought it would have landed him consequences. He made the call that the CCP would let him get away with this.
> I know the title is the title on the actual article, but it's the Chinese Red Cross, not China itself. National Red Cross Societies are independent of the country's government.
The Chinese government does not tolerate independent power centers. Civil society organizations are either tiny or work extremely closely with the Party-State. The same is true of private companies. If it’s a big company it follows government directives.
The party controls China’s Red Cross. We were highly encouraged to donate during certain events (eg the wenchuan earthquake), to the point that it didn’t really feel optional. And their is a lot of corruption in the Chinese Red Cross that is wrapped around party officials (eg the Guo Meimei incident during the just mentioned earthquake).
It is $700,000, which in 2022 is not really a significant amount of money. Why the last time I spent that much on something it didn't make the news? I am not China?
> Why the last time I spent that much on something it didn't make the news?
Humblebrag much?
And no, you're not China, whose government is actively supporting Russia; which means that any humanitarian support flowing from China to Ukraine is news.
I'm a little surprise that this is even a news. The amount is toot small, not proportional though.
The invasion of Russia put China in a dilemma
that China can not condemn Russia but on the other hand it does not support the invasion. There are a few reasons:
1.Ukraine has a very friendly relation with China . Not only this government but also earlier ones before the war (Now it might be different). Probably because Ukraine is not ideological. It's only hostile to Russia but not China as it's a "Regime". As a comparison there's another democratic country did the other way
2.The invasion is against China's historic position in UN so not condemning Russia is already a embarrassment.
3.The invasion is against China's interest.
Just a some facts:
* The trade and exchange of student between 2 countries are quite significant.
* The first negotiation between Russia and Ukraine was after a online meeting between Xi and Putin, along with phone call between Foreign ministers of China and Ukraine. There's a speculation but as history shows China like to do things quietly because It's often a more effective way.
5 million RMB is only 800k USD. For comparison, a livestream star in China can sell $2 billion worth of goods in a day. China has over 1 billion people. The country is donating what is amount to 1 FANG employee's annual salary. This amount is like giving a penny just to appear neutral to both sides. They are donating to buy the argument that they care.
Update:
For those still unconvinced, a neighboring economy with equivalent to 5% of China's GDP donated 27 tons of medical supplies. Anyone with knowledge want to calculate the market value of each ton of medical supply?
$200K is entry level for Google in the Bay Area. $800K is probably 95th. percentile for individual contributors but you don’t have to be management to hit that. It is rare.
A sample point: 5 million RMB is worth of an 80m² apartment in Shanghai, but many ordinary Chinese need to pay a 10~30 yr mortgage. Average salaries are not that high in China.
Real estate is crazier in China than in the USA when you compare housing costs to local salaries, or even when you compare Chinese housing costs to American salaries. I relocated from Beijing back to Seattle so I could buy a house.
To bring perspective, Bosch Germany recently donated a million euros (1.1 mil USD) to the red cross and opened its surrounding-country offices as refugee shelters (Stefan Hartung interview).
But its a very welcome donation by CRC considering the political move.
Wondering if any geopolitical experts on HN can take a stab at explaining this move? From my rudimentary understanding, China was (has been) allied with Russia behind the scenes in this move against Ukraine.
Is this a hedge to maintain a good reputation and a good working relationship with the world by using this action as a: "Hey, look we helped Ukraine in its time of need"?
> China has refused to describe Russia's activities in Ukraine as invasion.
Russia surprised China with its invasion timing & planning, in particular the mismanagement that turned this from a regional thing into a major international incident, which is now causing a lot of embarrassment due to their mutual cooperation. They don't want to discard friendship with Russia over this, but at the same time it looks bad all around, right at the time when China is pushing hard to become the new moral, economic, and cultural center of the world.
China isn't going to assist Ukraine directly, of course, nor is it going to push hard to back Russia. But backchannel humanitarian aid always looks good, and can't be criticised. Plus it helps to drive the point home that Putin has embarrassed them and they don't like that.
>Russia surprised China with its invasion timing & planning, in particular the mismanagement that turned this from a regional thing into a major international incident
It seems like China was caught off guard by the scale, like many other people. Possibly even most of the Russian government.
The assumption by almost everyone was that Russia would recognize the separatist regions that were already essentially owned by Russia. But instead they dropped paratroopers and sent tanks straight to the capital of a European country with 45 million people.
My understanding is Xi knew of the invasion well-ahead, and actually told Putin to delay it, to not interfere with the Beijing Olympics. This might partly explain the logistical problems the Russians are having: when they first started massing combat power, they didn't plan to have 150,000+ guys sitting around in the winter for quite this long.
Given that India, China and a bunch of other countries do not condemn the invasion nor participate in the sanctions against Russia, most of the world, in terms of population, is actually not on the "western side" of this conflict.
My guess is the Red Cross decided on the donation, and the CCP jumped on it, to take the credit, and deflect from their own lack of action - the announcement does appear to be from the foreign ministry.
Supporting evidence is that the amount is paltry, even insulting, as a govt donation, so either they were rushed into 'sponsoring' the existing announcement, or they are sending a message of barely even token aid.
I assume that Chinese oligarchs had taken good lessons about the fate of Russian oligarchs properties in the western countries (and specially about their money movements being watched more closely).
Maybe they realized that it surprised people that they did support Russia the directly. Many had no illusions about that, but would have expected their statements towards the invasion to be more diplomatic.
This is Chinese Red cross and not China but this is very similar to what one more friend of Russia, India is doing. They have also sent in humanitarian aid.
Humanitarian aid helps you support people and not help in the defense of Ukraine, so Russia won't mind.
Also, compared to China's GDP, this is nothing when you compare it to other countries.
Yeah I'd like to think that too, but the article mentions in its first paragraph that this aid was announced by the 'Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian.'
So in this case it doesn't seem like they're different.
China is essentially pacifist. And it’s not just their politics; it’s how Chinese - the actual people - feel. Invading anyone just isn’t their thing.
So, they are quite unhappy with Russia’s invasion, but they can’t join US sanctions, because US. Instead they’ll probably sanction Russia silently, and then buy out Russian industry for peanuts.
This is about $1M right? A few orders of magnitude below what others are providing while feeding the boot that stomps on the humans in need of said humanitatian assistance. Hey it's a start but China the world is watching you
That is not even a start, the amount is adding insult to injury. We are talking about a (self-proclaimed) economic superpower, and not a local bakery chain in Beijing.
China is still considered a developing country and that is pretty much true for a vast amount of Chinese people. There are some exceptions already, but there is merit to the classification.
Netherlands donations would be closer to 9000 times Chinese donations per capita.
Netherlands donated more than 100 million. China is 1,4 billion people, not 1 billion and the donated amount is 800 k. Not 1 million. Netherlands is 17,3 million people, not 20 million.
Additionally, Netherlands donated euros, not dollars.
--
If you take into consideration that Ukraine was a "one road one belt" partner and had a nuclear protection agreement with China. In return, Ukraine also delivered a lot of food/wheat.
Then you can see that any notion of China as a strong ally is too ridiculous to even consider.
Sorry to disappoint you guys but the Chinese Red Cross is just another Chinese government department, more specifically, according to Chinese domestic laws, it is a Chinese government department with Sub-Provincial (Ministerial) level.
It is current President is Chen Zhu who was China's Minister of Health, he is also a current vice-chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, which according to the wikipedia is "the highest organ of state power and the legislature of China". Chinese Red Cross's current honorary President is Wang Qishan, the vice President of China & the right hand man of Xi.
It's a symbolic gesture which sends a geopolitical message.
Now, we all get to speculate about the message.
Most of the speculation here is wrong. Russia invaded Ukraine under the pretext of a humanitarian mission and if you read Russian media, Russia is distributing food and aid in Ukraine. Everywhere, but especially Russia and China, a lot of effort goes into keeping up appearances.
I think the key question is how will this be reported by China. It could be pro-Russia (China is helping Russia free Ukraine), neutral (China is providing humanitarian aid in the middle of a conflict), pro-US (China is helping Ukraine against Russia), or just about anything else.
I'm keeping my eye on People's Online Daily. Articles like this one:
It's geopolitically interesting that China, a Russian ally, is choosing to donate to a Ukrainian cause. It sends a subtle message of china's stance on the war.
It’s something that happened and might interest some people. That makes it news and someone found it interesting enough to share on HN.
News items don’t have to be more meaningful than “x happened”.
In this case it’s interesting to know actions taken by China in the context of Ukraine invasion by Russia. Even if it isn’t that meaningful, it’s still a message.
>News items don’t have to be more meaningful than “x happened”.
Yes, they do. Any news story that would be covered by the mainstream media needs to present evidence of a new or interesting phenomenon that satisfies intellectual curiosity. Do most stories about Ukraine, Russia, China or the war satisfy intellectual curiosity, or emotional needs? Do they generate intellectually stimulating conversation, or just act as a medium for the same tedious political tribalism that most political subjects tend to generate?
The bar has to be higher than "x happened" or else we'll get flooded with pedestrian nonsense, which we are every time a major mainstream topic takes over and the existing moderation safeguards fail.
Even assuming this is the Chinese government providing the funds, through the Chinese Red Cross, this donation of just $800k seems to me a case of "damned by faint praise".
If it's the Chinese Red Cross independent of government, then it's a relatively generous donation for an ngo branch that is not even in the same region, perhaps thumbing their nose at the lack of Chinese govt. support.
Readit News
From https://www.ifrc.org/fundamental-principles
"The Movement is independent. The National Societies, while auxiliaries in the humanitarian services of their governments and subject to the laws of their respective countries, must always maintain their autonomy so that they may be able at all times to act in accordance with the principles of the Movement."
Very hard to believe this is something that could happen without the CCP’s politburo approval
The Chinese government does not tolerate independent power centers. Civil society organizations are either tiny or work extremely closely with the Party-State. The same is true of private companies. If it’s a big company it follows government directives.
Humblebrag much?
And no, you're not China, whose government is actively supporting Russia; which means that any humanitarian support flowing from China to Ukraine is news.
The invasion of Russia put China in a dilemma that China can not condemn Russia but on the other hand it does not support the invasion. There are a few reasons:
1.Ukraine has a very friendly relation with China . Not only this government but also earlier ones before the war (Now it might be different). Probably because Ukraine is not ideological. It's only hostile to Russia but not China as it's a "Regime". As a comparison there's another democratic country did the other way
2.The invasion is against China's historic position in UN so not condemning Russia is already a embarrassment.
3.The invasion is against China's interest.
Just a some facts: * The trade and exchange of student between 2 countries are quite significant. * The first negotiation between Russia and Ukraine was after a online meeting between Xi and Putin, along with phone call between Foreign ministers of China and Ukraine. There's a speculation but as history shows China like to do things quietly because It's often a more effective way.
Update: For those still unconvinced, a neighboring economy with equivalent to 5% of China's GDP donated 27 tons of medical supplies. Anyone with knowledge want to calculate the market value of each ton of medical supply?
But its a very welcome donation by CRC considering the political move.
>70% of employees at FAANG make less than $800k per year.
But okay, 2 FANG employees :)
By the way, when China used to have disasters, international communities use to donate 10x that amount. Some food for thought.
Is this a hedge to maintain a good reputation and a good working relationship with the world by using this action as a: "Hey, look we helped Ukraine in its time of need"?
> China has refused to describe Russia's activities in Ukraine as invasion.
China isn't going to assist Ukraine directly, of course, nor is it going to push hard to back Russia. But backchannel humanitarian aid always looks good, and can't be criticised. Plus it helps to drive the point home that Putin has embarrassed them and they don't like that.
It seems like China was caught off guard by the scale, like many other people. Possibly even most of the Russian government.
The assumption by almost everyone was that Russia would recognize the separatist regions that were already essentially owned by Russia. But instead they dropped paratroopers and sent tanks straight to the capital of a European country with 45 million people.
https://youtu.be/Xl0W8Pgza4k
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/150118843952964403...
"Chinese media is reporting within Russia's captured territories and embedded with Russian troops" https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t9h3rp/chinese_med...
My understanding is Xi knew of the invasion well-ahead, and actually told Putin to delay it, to not interfere with the Beijing Olympics. This might partly explain the logistical problems the Russians are having: when they first started massing combat power, they didn't plan to have 150,000+ guys sitting around in the winter for quite this long.
Also Red Cross seems to be dead. Many people on the ground said that in the past 8 years in Ukraine it did nothing.
Will need more research but it seems to be highly ineffective organization that spends a lot of money and doesn’t produce much.
So sending this amount of money is basically nothing and looks like PR move.
China in general is concerned with trade.
How do we know which side those people are on?
Either way, fortunately the world doesn't function by 51% majority vote.
Supporting evidence is that the amount is paltry, even insulting, as a govt donation, so either they were rushed into 'sponsoring' the existing announcement, or they are sending a message of barely even token aid.
This one is quite telling: https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3168656/u...
Everyone knows China as a Russian trade partner but they're also a major Ukrainian trade partner as well.
If you want a more neutral source there's Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Ukraine_relation...
Humanitarian aid helps you support people and not help in the defense of Ukraine, so Russia won't mind.
Also, compared to China's GDP, this is nothing when you compare it to other countries.
So in this case it doesn't seem like they're different.
https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/china-civilians-harm-russia-i...
So, they are quite unhappy with Russia’s invasion, but they can’t join US sanctions, because US. Instead they’ll probably sanction Russia silently, and then buy out Russian industry for peanuts.
5000x as much per person.
Netherlands donated more than 100 million. China is 1,4 billion people, not 1 billion and the donated amount is 800 k. Not 1 million. Netherlands is 17,3 million people, not 20 million.
Additionally, Netherlands donated euros, not dollars.
--
If you take into consideration that Ukraine was a "one road one belt" partner and had a nuclear protection agreement with China. In return, Ukraine also delivered a lot of food/wheat.
Then you can see that any notion of China as a strong ally is too ridiculous to even consider.
“worth 5 million yuan ($791,540)”
It is current President is Chen Zhu who was China's Minister of Health, he is also a current vice-chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, which according to the wikipedia is "the highest organ of state power and the legislature of China". Chinese Red Cross's current honorary President is Wang Qishan, the vice President of China & the right hand man of Xi.
https://donate.redcross.org.uk/appeal/ukraine-crisis-appeal
https://bank.gov.ua/en/about/support-the-armed-forces
The Netherlands with ~ 20 million people donated over 100 million in 1 donation this week.
That's more than 100 x more in absolute numbers and china has over 1 billion people.
Anyone wants to compare relative difference per capita? Since this is not even newsworthy in absolute numbers.
Probably it's a record low in relative numbers.
Now, we all get to speculate about the message.
Most of the speculation here is wrong. Russia invaded Ukraine under the pretext of a humanitarian mission and if you read Russian media, Russia is distributing food and aid in Ukraine. Everywhere, but especially Russia and China, a lot of effort goes into keeping up appearances.
I think the key question is how will this be reported by China. It could be pro-Russia (China is helping Russia free Ukraine), neutral (China is providing humanitarian aid in the middle of a conflict), pro-US (China is helping Ukraine against Russia), or just about anything else.
I'm keeping my eye on People's Online Daily. Articles like this one:
http://en.people.cn/n3/2022/0309/c90000-9968524.html
(Supporting EU efforts in Ukraine)
Or this one:
http://en.people.cn/n3/2022/0309/c90000-9968563.html
(Speculating US bioweapons research in Ukraine)
China has the means to end this war on short notice but it choose not to.
It’s something that happened and might interest some people. That makes it news and someone found it interesting enough to share on HN.
News items don’t have to be more meaningful than “x happened”.
In this case it’s interesting to know actions taken by China in the context of Ukraine invasion by Russia. Even if it isn’t that meaningful, it’s still a message.
Yes, they do. Any news story that would be covered by the mainstream media needs to present evidence of a new or interesting phenomenon that satisfies intellectual curiosity. Do most stories about Ukraine, Russia, China or the war satisfy intellectual curiosity, or emotional needs? Do they generate intellectually stimulating conversation, or just act as a medium for the same tedious political tribalism that most political subjects tend to generate?
The bar has to be higher than "x happened" or else we'll get flooded with pedestrian nonsense, which we are every time a major mainstream topic takes over and the existing moderation safeguards fail.
If it's the Chinese Red Cross independent of government, then it's a relatively generous donation for an ngo branch that is not even in the same region, perhaps thumbing their nose at the lack of Chinese govt. support.