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Posted by u/atdrummond 4 years ago
Tell HN: SWIFT is not a payments transfer system
As part of my startup's remit, I do a lot of work with clients' SWIFT payments. I feel like the media has done a very poor job explaining what SWIFT is and how exactly it works.

SWIFT exists not for the purpose of providing the rail(s) upon which money moves but to be the messaging system which coordinates said transfers. When sending funds (typically done via a document called a MT103, which is a text file with specific formatting requirements) one informs the recipient institution by sending a SWIFT message. When it is time for the banks to actually move the funds (which often times occurs significantly after the funds are made available to the client in question) this will be coordinated through a payment system. In most cases in Europe, this is TARGET2. However, as Russia is not a member of the Eurozone, many of their impacted payments will likely be on the STEP2 payment network, which is the only European-wide clearing house. (However, these days, it isn't uncommon for banks to work together to use multiple clearing houses across multiple jurisdictions to most efficiently move funds.)

From what I understand from banks and clients we work with who have a significant Eastern European nexus, Russia was already experiencing problems with the payment systems before the formal SWIFT bans were announced and that the effective shutdown of central bank settlements for Russia has served to bring international payments coordination for RU based institutions to a crawl.

Happy to add clarification where it could be useful.

emilsedgh · 4 years ago
What you are implying here is that SWIFT ban is not that big of a deal as there are alternatives.

You are probably more educated on this, but I'm an Iranian and Iran was the only country so far that was banned from SWIFT. And it was a very very big deal. The banks could not deal with anywhere in the world and it become very difficult to send or receive money.

The EU tried to setup an alternative to SWIFT [0] so they could work with Iran but it didn't really work out.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_in_Support_of_Trade...

yyyk · 4 years ago
Unlike Iran, Russian banks has not been all disconnected from SWIFT. Only a few banks were. So effect is much smaller. In general, the sanctions on Russia are limited and not strict, the US hasn't gone anywhere as far as it could[0].

[0] https://twitter.com/M_S_Billingslea/status/14984295311951544...

Also, in Iran's case there's the FATF issue which doesn't yet exist regarding Russia.

lobocinza · 4 years ago
So basically they are giving time to those that should be affected to move their funds and later when sanctions are increased it will only cause collateral damage.
IYasha · 4 years ago
Some banks lease other banks' tarnsfer mechanisms and I've read official statements that their card infrastructure was also affected.
atdrummond · 4 years ago
A big complicating factor there was also the concomitant sanctions by the US and some of their allies. I don't want to imply that I don't think banning SWIFT wasn't important or impactful in either of these cases (it was) - I just wanted to make clear what precisely was happening, as I don't think most reporting was very clear. I'm sorry if it came off otherwise; I appreciate you dropping this comment as I don't want anyone getting the impression that I'm flippantly suggesting that Russia could easily go on with business as usual through alternative means.
traceroute66 · 4 years ago
> I don't want anyone getting the impression that I'm flippantly suggesting that Russia could easily go on with business as usual through alternative means.

One would obviously hope that the cumulative effects of the various sanctions make it difficult or impossible for Russia to continue with business as usual.

However, part of me worries about the abilities of the oligarch network.

I mean, if you look at the various flight tracking websites. Sure a lot of the commercial aviation traffic has been killed off, but there are still large numbers of private jets floating around in and out of Moscow. How is this possible ? Because the sanctions are only against Russian registered aircraft, and most of those private jets are registered elsewhere and/or are hidden behind charter companies registered elsewhere.

Quite possibly this extends to finance ? I imagine there is potential to find alternative financing routes. It wouldn't be able to last forever, for sure, but might last longer than the West anticipates.

Mindwipe · 4 years ago
> What you are implying here is that SWIFT ban is not that big of a deal as there are alternatives.

I don't think it's so much that, but the UK and US bans on dollar clearance for banking which happened a few days before the SWIFT block actually did 90% of the work that the SWIFT ban is getting the credit for.

It's like turning off the metadata layer two days after putting an axe through the ethernet cable.

sam_lowry_ · 4 years ago
SWIFT is a stone-age blockchain. Its messages have non-repudation properties.

The ban makes it much harder to make settlements.

jerf · 4 years ago
I didn't get the sense that the author is implying that anything is or is not a big deal. I believe the author was just correcting for a technical audience that can understand it what SWIFT is. As the author said, the media makes it sound like an API for moving money around. There were some other posts on HN about the consequences of misunderstanding what SWIFT was, I recall one person mentioned being assigned a project to "integrate with SWIFT" which turned out upon deeper analysis to be impossible as assigned, because the people handing them the assignment didn't realize what SWIFT actually was and also had the same misconception.
2Gkashmiri · 4 years ago
how is crypto scene in iran? with india's recent tax daylight robbery on crypto i am confident that a lot more people will join the informal network of owning and transacting in crypto. if i have to buy 1k worth of BTC or ETH for example, i can imagine paying a friend the cash and getting their wallet in return.

now translate that to international cross-border transactions and we have a bypass. do iranians accept crypto as in other countries (to be fair, even india is far far behind but the recent acceptance by imposing tax is seen in a good light overall)

n2j3 · 4 years ago
North Korea is also banned from SWIFT.

Dead Comment

belorn · 4 years ago
I would be interesting to hear an further explanation in how this distinction is important.

Money in banks is in the end just information stored in ledges about who owns who money. If a transaction occur within a bank it just numbers of one account getting an relative change to an other account. If an transaction occur between banks, the banks has a relation and the bank own ledger get changed, in addition to the individual accounts. With a clearing house you add a middle man that takes up part of the risk if either bank would fail in their obligation to honor the ledger. The actually movement of physical funds and valuables is quite rare and don't general occur from single transactions.

If you can't transfer the information then the system of transferring information stored in ledges stop working. One can go out-of-band, but that assumes the other party is also willing to do so, and that there is no law/agreement against by-passing sanctions.

immibis · 4 years ago
The distinction is which messages we are talking about. When I (a US bank) send a message to the US Federal Reserve to please transfer $1,000,000 to another US bank, and the US Federal Reserve updates their records accordingly, that is an actual transfer of money.

When I send a message to the other US bank saying "Hey, I sent you $1,000,000. Of that, $10,000 is for John Doe, $10,000 for Jane Smith, $5,000 for Alice, $5,000 for Bob, ......" that's SWIFT.

belorn · 4 years ago
To my understanding, the common method is that bank A and Bank B is both customers at the clearinghouse, in your case the US Federal Reserve. Bank A has an account, and Bank B has an account, generally a deposit serving as security.

A "bank day" is basically the sum at the end of the day that bank A own to bank B. No physical money get transferred unless the US Federal Reserve requires it, which if both banks has fairly similar outgoing debt to each other the accounts won't change by much. the US Federal Reserve don't see the "$10,000 is for John Doe, $10,000 for Jane Smith", only the sum of all transaction going from A to B or B to A.

Bank A tells bank B that "I told the US Federal Reserve to update your account by +$1,000,000 and reduce my own account by same amount, and you can verify this by talking to the US Federal Reserve and checking your account. The items that those +$1,000,000 represent are listed here. John Doe get $10,000, Alice get $5,000, ...". This occur through the SWIFT protocol. Bank B then do the same by first telling US Federal Reserve and then giving bank A the list of the individual items.

The US Federal Reserve don't really transfers money. They simple managed the ledgers for banks relation with other banks. What occurs is simply a ledger being updated about how much bank A is in dept to bank B, and wise verse. The federal bank will step in if a bank defaults, or I guess if the differences between A and B becomes too great to manage.

spiralx · 4 years ago
Thanks, this comment has explained to me what SWIFT is more than anything else I've read so far :)
0xcoffee · 4 years ago
So how does it work when there are multiple of these systems (CIPS). Is double spending possible?
hashimotonomora · 4 years ago
Essentially trust. If your bank does not have relations with a foreign bank in a faraway country, both can use an intermediary bank that both trust and do have relations with.
kayamon · 4 years ago
Of course double spending is possible -- the entire world economy currently relies on it.
nopcode · 4 years ago
> how this distinction is important

It's not. At least not in the short term.

notahacker · 4 years ago
Heard a finance guy making this argument on radio news. His point was that it was essentially a telecommunication system, which could be replaced by telex or or other messaging service as a less efficient way of getting payments through, or at least important, large payments with cooperating banks and clearing houses. It ruining the coordination of day to day payments seems to have had the desired effect on the Russian economy though.
vishnugupta · 4 years ago
> essentially a telecommunication system

Indeed, as implied by the name.

“ Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication”

alangibson · 4 years ago
There have already been a lot of new rules put in place blocking transactions with Russian banks, which I guess is meant to take care of the "cooperating banks and clearing houses"
Mindwipe · 4 years ago
Yes, though the closure of dollar clearance services by US and UK banks also stopped the large important payments, at least via the West.

There will still be some facility to do it via China, but China's largest banks are also baulking (mostly because of the rapidly imploding value of the Ruble meaning they don't trust Russian banks to actually send the requisite funds than any great moral imperative I expect by the result is the same), and any Chinese services still willing to co-operate are going to extract a very, very hefty tithe from the Russians to enable it.

teatree · 4 years ago
The assumption here is that Chinese banks operate with only a profit movie. Things don't work that way in China, the CCP could compel one or more Chinese banks to co-operate if it serves their geopolitical interests.

China would be keen on establishing and testing an alternative to SWIFT & CHIPS, the US stranglehold on financial systems, as they know the US would use it serve her geopolitical interests.

Looking at the number of countries sanctioned, there is no dearth of customers.

This reminds of Borg from Star Trek, more you use your weapons against them, faster they adapt.

m12k · 4 years ago
At the end of the day, the communication system was being used to make promises, based on an assumption that all the institutions involved in the transfer had the incentive and means to keep their promises. The latter is also being drastically undermined at the moment, making the emergence of an alternative ad-hoc "IOU" system less likely.
sealthedeal · 4 years ago
CEO and co-founder of Routefusion, a global payments company. In theory yes you could just setup some other form of communicating between the banks, such as phone calls lol. What you will not get is efficiency, trust, etc etc. You dont just replace SWIFT, Ripple, has been trying for a long time, and are still not close.
raxxorrax · 4 years ago
I think nobody tried because there was simply no need. Now that killing financial access is used as a political tool in domestic and international conflicts, redundant lines could be established. Doesn't work in the short term of course.
simonh · 4 years ago
I get the impression it's not so much that SWIFT itself is critical, it's that so many other banking services and activities are co-ordinated using SWIFT, and being on SWIFT is an indicator of reliability and that you or your organisation is an insider.
dahdum · 4 years ago
I’d also guess a lot of regulation, policy, insurance, and perhaps law is specific to SWIFT such that you can’t just swap over to another system or simply telephone the transactions.
SantalBlush · 4 years ago
That would make sense. It's not the tech that's important here, but the network.
m4lvin · 4 years ago
Recommended talk by Mark van Cuijk from 2016:

A world without blockchain - How (inter)national money transfers works

https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-8315-a_world_without_blockchain

alangibson · 4 years ago
> When it is time for the banks to actually move the funds (which often times occurs significantly after the funds are made available to the client in question)

Interesting. That makes SWIFT sound like a sort of digital Hawala system.

pjc50 · 4 years ago
Almost all banking systems divide into "clearing" and "settlement". There is an assumption that, like internet peering, the flows will roughly balance. So at the end of the day if there's $10m in one direction and $9m in the other, that gets settled as either a $1m transfer between the two accounts of the banks at the central bank (the modern, fast way), or if no such relationship exists, through a "nostro/vostro account" (Bank X literally itself has an account at Bank Y), or as an overnight interbank loan.

This was why the 2008 financial crisis was such a risk; it's perfectly normal for banks to lend hundreds of millions to each other overnight to keep the payments system open, at near-zero interest rates because the risk is zero. But what if the risk isn't zero? What if there's a very real risk that your bank lends $100m to a bank that doesn't open the next day and you have to get in the bankruptcy credit line? Payments would have to slow down or stop happening or dramatically increase in cost.

Hence the decision to lend hundreds of millions to every vaguely bank-shaped object to keep the payments system running. It mostly worked, the money was almost all repaid (in fact I think it made a profit in the US?), and incidents of customers queuing at banks or collateral damage to businesses unable to make payments through no fault of their own was minimal.

tuyiown · 4 years ago
> That makes SWIFT sound like a sort of digital Hawala system.

I chuckled, thanks a lot. But numeric money and banking exchange is already based on trust, trust of correct and consistent traceability of exchanges being written by both parties. Hawala is solely based on reputation, and has the very convenient side effect that there is no traceability whatsoever. Doesn't looks like swift to me :)

alangibson · 4 years ago
One thing I always wondered: is there ever a settlement between Hawala agents? It seems like someone could get so unbalanced that they would need to balance out.
vmception · 4 years ago
There are many more analogs to hawala, not specific to SWIFT, as many banks and financial institutions have accounts at other major financial institutions in a variety of countries, upon transfer by one of their clients, the sub-financial institution decreases their balance at the host institution by giving the host institution the money (or reducing a line of credit), and at the receiving host bank they simply increase the sub-institution's balance (or increase of a line of credit).

Final settlement honestly may never occur.

Kinrany · 4 years ago
Cryptocurrency projects should be cloning these interbank exchange mechanisms, not making a single global ledger.
miraculixx · 4 years ago
How does SWIFT play with ISO20022, is that the same thing but different message format?

Also I get it that SWIFT filled a need in the olden days, but with internet+messaging systems in general now available ww why don't banks use something more modern and less expensive? I am not hinting at blockchain. Eg they could use sth like email, telegram, some private incarnation of that, to send their MTx messages, or whatever.

gruturo · 4 years ago
> How does SWIFT play with ISO20022, is that the same thing but different message format?

The "legacy" SWIFT standard , called MT, was (retroactively) made into an ISO standard itself - ISO15022. Currently it is expected to coexist with ISO20022 on the same SWIFT network for 5 years, no idea which % of traffic is MT and which is ISO20022 though.

So anyway - The SWIFT network can carry either traffic.

As to why the SWIFT is not replaced.... it's not _that_ expensive, if you're a bank, and there is a huge network effect: If all your friends (other banks) are on network X, you really want to be there too, even if you maybe don't like too much how it's run and its cost.

Additionally, it provides a lot of convenience which would be really painful to reimplement - and it would be massively antieconomic to implement it unless you can spread the cost over as many participants as possible (so you're basically trying to create another SWIFT - and there are already plenty of alternatives, though none with the reach and trust SWIFT offers).

Said convenience is, for example, delivery confirmations, ability to replay any message up to 2 months ago, guarantee of every participant (bank)'s identity, non-repudiation. Oh and extreme resilience, which doesn't hurt.

But this misses the main value proposition, which I perceive as the trust in the institution: they've been doing exactly this job for longer than I've been alive, they're a neutral operator, simply carrying everybody's traffic and being truthful about what passes through their pipes. If you send a message through SWIFT, you won't be able to deny that, and the banking community will consider you committed to what you wrote. If you denied that you did, SWIFT would be able to replay the message (even without your consent, if coerced by authorities). And they will not agree to "lose" a message you regret sending - their entire value to the banking community would go to 0 in a moment.

Finally, they're a cooperative - participating banks actually own a stake, and profits just get redistributed (more or less), so it's not like they are sucking an inordinate amount of money away from the banking system and keeping it to themselves.

atdrummond · 4 years ago
Most of the institutions doing a good job with 20022 anyway have jumped to gpi which handles it out of the box. I'd say we see about half and half but we work with a lot of smaller institutions that aren't on GPI and aren't particularly sophisticated.
miraculixx · 4 years ago
thanks for your insightful answer! that really helps
rowls66 · 4 years ago
SWIFT transitioned from X.25 to IP ~ 10 years ago, so they have made changes to keep up with technology. The SWIFT network is now a private IP network. Given the value of transactions that move across the SWIFT network daily, I think that many participants feel more comfortable with the added security that comes with a private network.
atdrummond · 4 years ago
Let me answer your second question - the recent implementation of SWIFT gpi (which is not being widely used by most Russian institutions so not relevant to the sanctions talk) is designed to increase the power of the SWIFT system, better automate payments and ease interaction between SWIFT and clearing houses/payment systems. So in that sense it would be far better than coordinating over a non-payments specific communication method.

Regarding your first question - ISO20022 currently requires a parser to convert ISO20022 information into a MT message. This is automated in SWIFT gpi and compatible softwares.

rvz · 4 years ago
> Also I get it that SWIFT filled a need in the olden days, but with internet+messaging systems in general now available ww why don't banks use something more modern and less expensive? I am not hinting at blockchain.

Well, I won't be surprised to see blockchains like XRPL, Stellar and Algorand to be part of the ISO 20022 standard [0]

[0] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/iso-20022-cryptos-5-compliant...

elric · 4 years ago
Given that ISO20022 (MX) contains thousands of message types already, it certainly wouldn't be surprising to see a few more appear.

In addition to that, SWIFT has something called MyStandards, which basically enables financial institutions to create/share/use their own message formats. Insert XKCD-927.

blinkos · 4 years ago
Thanks for this clarification. I honestly thought SWIFT was some kind of central coordination authority for all inter-bank payments. I have been bamboozled.
atdrummond · 4 years ago
I don't feel like your definition is a bad one per se - just so long as people understand:

1 - there are other ways to coordinate payments!

2 - that the actual fund movement is handled through other means than SWIFT.