I've long considered leaving this country for a multitude of reasons.
I'd be curious to hear some first hand experiences of those who've made the move to Europe and what you think of the process and considerations one should make.
A few questions to start the conversation:
- Where do you live?
- What's the biggest sacrifice you had to make (i.e. pay, housing, friends, etc.)
- What have you gained?
Housing is always smaller than you'd get in (at least the western) US for the same price, and I'd bet that's true pretty much everywhere in Europe. Speaking the same language is useful, but Covid has made it hard to make friends or do much.
Despite its reputation, I find that Europe is far more provincial than the US when it comes to food - a lot of stuff you think of as ubiquitous in the West will be "foreign" food and harder 48 to find. (And if you like tacos, stay on that side of the pond.)
Benefits: it's a lot quieter and generally less dangerous than the US. The NHS is absolutely amazing and you'll never want to deal with the American system ever again. People tend to be less aggressive.
From an entrepreneurial standpoint I'm sure it's much harder to get up and running, but I'm old enough to not care anymore. If I could work legally for a UK startup or tech firm doing basic dev I'd be happy enough and well-paid enough to never feel the urge to start my own ragged little thing again.
It is colder in most of Europe than the US, in my experience (not just living here but traveling extensively in my life). If you're a Cali kid, you will miss the sunlight, especially in the winter. It's like a fucking Joy Division video here from October through April. :-D
I think if my wife and I could afford to split our time between here and Vegas, we would. But that's just not in the cards right now.
But hey, at least they're not on the brink of civil war here and the curry is good.
That might be an external reputation, but it wouldn't be one that Europeans would have. People forget that Europe isn't a country, but a collection of different countries, all with long histories, and long histories means a lot of regional differences even _within_ countries.
> It is colder in most of Europe than the US,
I think people forget how far north Europe is: Paris is further north than Seattle. For how far north everything is, Europe is positively _balmy_!
> It's like a fucking Joy Division video here from October through April.
And that's why, especially in Northern Europe, a lot of the culture is around, for want of a better term, coziness: it's only a little to do with the cold, and everything to do with the dark.
> That might be an external reputation, but it wouldn't be one that Europeans would have. People forget that Europe isn't a country, but a collection of different countries, all with long histories, and long histories means a lot of regional differences even _within_ countries.
yes and no. You can absolutely notice that here in the south of Germany you simply don't get a few things that are from the north, or from the very close-by Austria, and I mean that in a way that you wouldn't believe North California is different than South California. Like.. whole restaurant chains that are virtually unknown on either side of the imaginary barrier, or stuff you can get in a supermarket or bakery. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I can imagine the parent meant - it may just be 500km in the same country and it's completely different.
Thanks to the Gulf Stream. One potential risk of climate change is that if the circulation patterns are disrupted, our nice supply of warm water from the Atlantic might cease and it would actually get locally colder.
I think that might be overstated.
> NHS is absolutely amazing
I've read and heard that for a non-emergency appointments, the wait could sometimes be months. Is that also overstated?
Depends on where you are. I lived in the UK until last August and am now in the US. When I lived in London and Oxford I found the wait times to be very quick - in Oxford I could get non-emergency appointments the same day, possibly due to the high number of GPs and University hospitals. In London it was same week for everything I ever had an issue with. I believe in the less well-off areas, especially in the North of the country, there are areas with far lower staff numbers so the waiting time inflates. Worst-case scenarios in worst-case areas do have multiple-month waiting times nowadays.
Said that it is much worse than Germany or France. To this day I don’t understand the British obsession for a healthcare system that would be acceptable in a middle income country (say Russia or Mexico), but that’s clearly not what you’d expect in a developed country.
You think correctly, this is sensationalist nonsense. Maybe a group of 0.05% of the population are in a bubble thinking their riots about stuff will constitute a civil war but by no means is there any sizable group wanting to protest aggressively.
Also the quality of the NHS is pretty bad. The NHS being great is the usual state-backed propaganda you can hear in a lot of other European countries to justify spending all that tax money on healthcare.
Just from my personal experience: They skipped some safety measures they were supposed to follow during a birth delivery, they dealt terribly with one of my newborns after birth, they recommended removing 4 teeth of a 2 year old (we went private and all his teeth are fine and have been properly cleaned), they said that what we thought was a cavity was just a "discolouration" (it was a cavity, we dealt with it privately).
Luckily most decent employers pay private insurance (BUPA is very popular).
That’s because you are just outside London, and the UK bar London Zone 1 and 2 is the third world of gastronomy.
So people used to the Pacific Northwest would fit right in.
Moving from LA to Minneapolis will be depressing, moving from Rome to London will too.
> ... I'd bet that's true pretty much everywhere in Europe.
I think those two statements are very far apart.
I find it extremely hard to believe you can't find good tacos in London.
Last time I visited London and Paris I was overwhelmed by the variety of cuisines available. Probably the ubiquity of tacos in the US is replaced by food from every random tiny country you can think of.
Of course this isn't always applicable outside these 2 megacities; you're more likely to find more Turkish restaurants everywhere than Mexican ones everywhere in Europe.
> And if you like tacos, stay on that side of the pond.
Why are there no tacos in EU? I have noticed this in multiple places in Europe. The best I can figure, there is not a good supply of cheap chicken.
I honestly think there is an opportunity there. If someone can get a taco franchise in EU going I will pitch in for one location.
lets see how much the Scottish want to get back into the EU
And honestly it is fairly common to find peanut butter in supermarket in most of Western Europe (at least), may not be good but it exists.
I realized that this answer might be pretty biased after reading this inaccurate statement
I am French but have been working 12 years for a very large US company , spent a lot of time in the US, go friends there - an witnessed/helped several Americans moving to France.
Salary and healthcare were already covered. The fact that over a 3 days drive across Europe you visit 4 or 5 countries with vastly different cultures is a big plus. And by vastly I mean really vastly. We've been in constant wars for 2000+ years and this created a very nice and specific melting pot + cultural differences.
School will be very different. In France you will have a more formalized way of education (which is not a good thing), but also a very liberal one. Children will be drinking tap water starting at kindergarten and and stay like this their whole life. They won't (usually) go to school on Wednesday.
The office will be less politically correct. You will have people discussing politics and religion - though this became less outspoken the last 10 years or so.
You will have good baguettes and average bread - but still eons better than the average US bread.
Bureaucracy is mcu better than the stereotype. But not good either. You have to learn the power of the "pffff" sound you make with your eyebrows up - which means "I understand that this is the rule, but you know, I have to do/get/send that and it is a huge problem if I don't". Many foreigners foolishly assume that a "no" means "this is not possible".
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pae2AMnmUVA for the more scientific approach to how to be French when you are not.
There must have been something seriously wrong with that water - water in France is classified as food and follows very strict regulations.
That’s very interesting. Do French people typically try to set up some care arrangement, or just leave the kids at home? When I grew up in Poland, if my school was doing that, my parents would most likely just have us stay at home alone (starting from grade 1), but I imagine this would be rather uncommon thing to do in US these days.
There are also city-ran "youth centers" (centre de loisirs) where you can park your child for that day.
PROS
- the weather if you like hot weather. It can be quite windy, but going for a picnic on the beach in February has its nice aspects
- there is a techhnopole at Sophia-Antipolis where they hire on a regular basis
- skiing: the Alps are close, or the Pyrenées - depending on where you are
- the views are really nice and vary a lot
CONS:
- the weather, it is too hot :)
- road communication is complicated, public transports are not great either
- prices of housing are high (depends on the place, obviously)
My preference would be places such as Nantes or Rennes (western part of France), or the western coast of the Atlantic (below Brittany: Charente Maritime, Vendée, ...)
Generally speaking, as a kid, I had a way, way more liberal education than today.
Would recommend/10, AMA.
Pros of Berlin:
- Good transport
- Bikeable
- Safe
- Cheaper than the big coastal cities in the US, with lower rent.
- Good clubbing (not my thing)
Cons of Berlin:
- Healthcare is inconvenient. Doctor's offices won't pick up the phone, and won't leave you on hold. You just have to go in person. Providers all work in small doctor-owned practices, and you get a referral runaround with huge wait times.
- The food in Germany is terrible. The quality of produce and other ingredients is very bad, and the restaurants are nothing special. One notable bright spot is the availability of vegetarian and vegan food. Also falafel and doner.
- The salaries are shockingly low. Really ask yourself if all the comforts of Europe are worth cutting your salary in 2 or 3, and that's before...
- Taxes. The top tax rate here is in the low-40s, comparable to the US, but unlike the US, the top tax bracket starts below $65k.
- Europe has an impending demographic crisis, and the social safety net they fund by plundering your paycheck probably won't be there for you when you retire.
- Stores in general suck. They have fewer, and worse products.
- Everyone still smokes here.
Exactly! No amount of health-care and vacation can cover for that. And that's why as for a skilled immigrant, USA is top destination.
> Taxes. The top tax rate here is in the low-40s, comparable to the US, but unlike the US, the top tax bracket starts below $65k.
It's funny when I see Americans on reddit complaining about how they have to pay so much in taxes. When you show them exact numbers, then they start talking about how they don't get "worth" of their taxes.
90 years ago it was about 1/4th that figure (as percent GDP). We've had an explosion of government siphoning of GDP, so it's no surprise some people aren't happy about the situation. Recent stimulus checks excepted, in the US a single person making above poverty line can actually be taxed into poverty.
I have looked into opting out of social security, but unfortunately you have to be a member of one of a few select religious organizations or certain unusual employment situations to be exempted (believe some teachers and rail workers with special retirement plans are excepted). I would like to see that option. Let me opt out for life of getting benefits of transfer payment, and in exchange not require me to pay any social transfer payment tax.
Indeed. I complained about this elsewhere, but on the other hand I probably would smoke like a chimney if I lived in Berlin.
Don't shop at Lidl then. Restaurants are what you make of it, goes from basic to fancy and the basic ones are, well, basic. (Though the basic ones are probably at a step lower than the ones in the US because of fast-food in the US)
Though I'll give it to you that 80% of restaurants are generic Italian or Asian ones
> Stores in general suck. They have fewer, and worse products.
Again, don't shop at Lidl. "Fewer products" oh you mean, slightly different products pretending they're not 50% HFCS like in the US? Or products that "look better" but aren't? (like excessively red apples that taste like nothing)
Berlin has many wonderful things going for it but Berlin is not known as being some bastion of great food. Nor is known as a food destination. There's a reason for that.
>"Restaurants are what you make of it, goes from basic to fancy and the basic ones are, well, basic."
What does that even mean? Some of the best restaurants in places like NYC, Austin and LA are "basic" restaurants but the food is delicious and cheap. From noodles, pizza, bbq, burgers, tacos, etc.
You comment about apples is really bizarre. The US has some of the best produce in the world, from local farmer's markets to giant Whole Foods. You can also find organic produce at nearly every market these days.
I mean is there still talk of banning people in London from having a steak knife on their person while in public? Take away guns and people will use other tools to carry out violence they might be intending.
Which is the real issue - people, not the tools/weapons. Fixating on tools is easier than those pesky humans, so I get why people tend to do that.
I think it was Heinlein that popularized "an armed society is a polite society" - turns out its more than mere theory or a pithy saying: https://neonnettle.com/features/1909-a-georgia-town-once-req...
For all its flaws, the US (and Canada) are societies built around inclusion. Anyone can become American or Canadian and they have. In North America, you are allowed to retain your original identity and flaunt your culture. In Europe, you must become only French, or only Dutch or only Italian. Your original identity is often erased.
Europe is a society fractured along lines of ethnicity and don't let anyone here tell you that ethnicity is not a huge part of identity. In europe, you are merely tolerated, you will never truly integrate and be accepted as "one of us". This is very evident in the words of non-white footballers like Ziyech and Ozil, one of whom is an EU citizen but plays for an African country. "Us" in the European context involves a specific ethnicity and this fact is very evident to people of colour in Europe.
You can certainly find individual europeans who buck this trend but the overall pressure from society is very different and this is the aspect a lot of people miss.
While europe's quality of life is great, what i'm getting at is a long-term problem that cannot be solved. And mind you, this is true everywhere in the old world as every society there is built around ethnicity.
I have seen so many cases of both cases here in Europe.
Which I suppose says something: maybe race concerns are so highlighted in the US precisely because we do aim to be more inclusive over all.
You do need to somehow actively engage yourself with the community though to make this work. Strongly recommend working from a coworking as much as possible. It forces you to frequently meet new people, gives you day-to-day language practice, and really helps to build a network of small connections that eventually power your social life long-term.
This colleague mentioned that it was the same for her, who was German but from a different part of Germany (like, we were in the East part of Germany and she was from the Northern part). She mentioned that Germans for the most part make their friends groups in the first ~18 years of their lives, and afterwards it is difficult to make friends.
Also reminds me of a time I was in the UK, walking with a German girl, near a train station. We saw a person who looked pretty lost (I think he had luggage and was looking at a wall map... al in all he looked confused). I approached this guy and asked him whether he needed help. He replied with a German accent, and he was indeed lost and was looking for some place. I proceeded to give him instructions on how to get to where he was going.
During all this time, my German friend was a bit further away from us. After I finished helping the guy she found it amusing how I approached the person and talked to him "out of nowhere". She told me that in Germany you don't normally approach people that you don't know like that. I asked her, "then how do you make new friends?" to what she responded that maybe only by introduction form a third party.
Anglo Saxon culture was quite a strong culture shock for me as a Latino.
Mainly the US has many benefits:
- Much, much higher salaries - like 2-3x higher than Western Europe _before_ income tax!
- Much larger houses for the price. i.e. you can have a big house with room for hobbies or children rather than just a small flat.
- Lower prices on a lot of fixed-price goods - cars, electronics, fuel, electricity, natural gas, etc.
- Lower income and sales tax so you can save for a property and retirement. This is really tough in Europe, the sort of Tech FIRE culture doesn't exist due to that - wealth is primarily inherited.
The downsides are:
- It's a necessity to drive, but at least outside the big cities it's a lot easier than Europe overall (big, wide, straight roads and automatic cars).
- Healthcare is tied to your employer so it can be incredibly risky when moving as an immigrant since until you get a Green Card, you are tied to the one employer (good luck negotiating a raise!). Note that in most Tech companies, the health insurance gives you better coverage than public systems in Europe (e.g. covering dentistry and annual checkups).
- Less stability in employment - at-will employment, lower unemployment payments (except vs. the UK), no trade unions in Tech.
- Safety in some areas wrt. gun crime, etc. - you have to choose where you live and work very carefully.
- Backwards in some technology (online payments, card payments, digitisation of government services vs. the UK and Scandinavia for example).
A main decision point would be if you have kids. Europe is great to move to if you've already saved a lot in the US, can move to Europe and buy a house outright, get permanent residency and then have children and benefit from better paternal leave and even universal child benefit payments (Kindergeld/Barnbidrag, etc.)
Whereas if you are child-free, and don't already have enough savings to buy property, it's going to be harder to achieve that in Europe IMO.
> Much, much higher salaries - like 2-3x higher than Western Europe _before_ income tax!
> Much larger houses for the price. i.e. you can have a big house with room for hobbies or children rather than just a small flat.
But remember that in those parts of the US where people have those very high salaries, people seem to complain about not being able to afford to buy a house at all. Should be less of a problem nowadays with remote work though.
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Where does this number come from? Assuming SWE, a senior SWE in Europe will generally take around 80/120k € (non-FAANG). 2-3x means a range of 180/400k $, which is not common even in the USA.
Nowhere near - I got 75k EUR at a FAANG (whilst the same position in the US paid ~$165k USD - the levels were public). I now get 86k EUR in one of the most expensive countries in Europe (with over 40% tax rate too).
But most Tech salaries are much lower, I started on the equivalent of $40k USD for example, and it's common for people to level out around $65-70k USD.
Gave up my car and driving frequently. Fantabulous gift of freedom not having to deal with traffic and car management. Public transport is a gift, and taxis or very short term car rental programs are a fine fallback.
Gave up some income as salaries are annoying much lower and taxes are much higher. But quality of life, depending on where you go, is much higher.
Get rid of as much of your possessions as you can. You can re-buy what you really need, and with more great activities available (non-COVID times) you spend less time at home needing stuff. Also apartments are smaller, so you don’t want to be crowded with stuff.
My first 5 years were in Amsterdam area, and it’s really fun. So many great social options, including for nerds (lots of tech meetups, often with free pizza and beer :) ). Plenty of bars and clubs and restaurants. Most restaurants are underwhelming and overpriced, so that’s not the attraction… but it provides social options.
If you’re American, it’s incredibly easy to set up residence in Netherlands based on the DAFT agreement. Look it up.
Portugal and Malta have visa programs for freelancers and people who can show that they have reliable income from outside sources. Lisbon is pretty great with much better food on average than Amsterdam. And much better climate.
And yeah, the climate is much much better. I really mis being able to see the sun.
Malta has an actual digital nomad visa which costs something like 300 eur.
Portugal has a D7 visa which is a bit more complicated to setup than Malta (partly because Malta has English as an official language).
I miss America's food and diversity and dynamism. It took being here to learn that those things are real. I also miss true deep wilderness, something much rarer in Western Europe.
What have I gained? A saner, simpler, more human-scale life. Pleasure. Security. Not having to hustle. Most of the misery I see in my friends and family in the US has material causes that barely exist here. Especially everything having to do with young children.