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Posted by u/tuyguntn 4 years ago
Ask HN: Why crypto is rising so fast when its not creating value?
We all talk about how startups and companies create value, how monetary system backs value in the form of money to be able to exchange it.

Why cryptocoins are rising so quickly when they are actually not creating any value? Or do they create value?

spicyusername · 4 years ago
- Excessive Liquidity: There's money sloshing around the global economy looking for a place to go.

- Crypto Marketability: It's become very easy for people to buy and sell cryptocurrency.

- Speculation: Regardless of what problems cryptocurrencies pretend to solve, their actual value so far has only been as a speculative investment. Like traditional equities, cryptocurrency is benefiting from the highly speculative market we live in right now and the FOMO of investors trying to make a quick return.

The situation that you're seeing with cryptocurrency has historical precedent with investment bubbles involving other technologies that were perceived to be "world changing". The bicycle mania [1] of the late 19th century and the dotcom bubble [2] of the late 20th century being notable examples.

1: https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/revisiting-the-great-british...

2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble

imtringued · 4 years ago
> - Excessive Liquidity: There's money sloshing around the global economy looking for a place to go.

Here is an intuitive explanation: China runs an trade surplus vs USA. China gets USD and USA gets products. Because of the trade surplus there is no reason to invest into USA because as long as China is sending products to the US there is no reason to produce those products in the USA. Yields for conventional domestic industries drop as they move to China. The problem is quite obvious. If China spends its money on American capital it is inherently engaging in speculative investment. A basic understanding of economics tells you money should go where the highest yields are, in other words, the money should stay in China until their wages rise and they have no competitive edge.

Well, but the trade surplus is born from foreign exchange policy. So the money comes rushing into American stocks and housing regardless of the risks. It's plausible that Bitcoin is just being used to evade capital controls. The speculative nature of Bitcoin isn't a downside, it's actually a nice bonus to them.

swalsh · 4 years ago
I think Crypto is a bunch of things to a bunch of people. Some see it as a fun way to make a quick buck, some see it as an alternative to gold in a time with unusual inflation of the dollar.

I see it as the future of the web. There's a lot of energy coming around the concept of Decentralized Apps. or Web 3.0, today we have web 2.0 with large centralized websites ran by huge tech monopolies. Regardless of your political affiliation, you probably dislike them. Though the exact reason you hate this is probably different.

Web 3.0 offers us a way out... and crypto is one of the critical underlying infrastrcuture components. A lot of people see things this way, and are trying to get in early on it. Chances are the markets will crash before the majority of people understand what web 3.0 is. But while the market is down, a lot of cool stuff is going to be built, and when more people start to discover it again, the market will shoot back up. This cycle happens every time we make progress. Of course, the markets are pretty amateurish right now so we also tend to overshoot it, leading to huge bull markets and big crashes.

mohanmcgeek · 4 years ago
Even if we assume cryptocurrencies have some role to play in the future dWeb, wouldn't that be the new currencies created by those dWeb services and not these ones being hyped right now?
tata71 · 4 years ago
Statistically all of new tokens are Ethereum tokens.

Could just buy & ride ETH to the end.

DennisP · 4 years ago
Ethereum's ENS works pretty well as a dWeb name service.
Liron · 4 years ago
Because we currently live in a world with: 1. A high-liquidity environment for VC firms 2. A high-liquidity environment for retail investors 3. Unprecedentedly easy, fun and addictive speculation tools

Once the crypto bubble took off thanks to this unprecedented bull market, it also attracts many smart engineers, businesspeople and entrepreneurs who jump into the gold rush hoping to sell picks & shovels.

There's one more aspect here. I've coined the term "Bloated MVP" [1] from years of watching startups that lack a coherent value prop, and don't know who their first user will be, and never get any traction whatsoever, but nevertheless manage to raise $millions and suck up smart people's time and energy. I've also spent years founding such companies myself. The reason people work on bloated MVPs is because they don't realize that an idealized abstract vision is very different from a value prop.

So to summarize: The crypto space is a massive ecosystem-level bloated MVP, intermingled with the biggest liquidity bubble of all time, and unprecedented speculation opportunities

[1] https://bloatedmvp.com

58x14 · 4 years ago
We’re in a hyperinflationary period. Loans are extremely inexpensive, cash is cheap. I suspect the majority of influx in crypto is due to an abundance of fiat.

With that said, there’s quite a lot going for Ethereum and defi as a sector. Major tech players like Google are funding many web3 startups. Facebook is fully embracing the “metaverse,” whatever the f** that is.

Tesla is trading at some ridiculous multiple of earnings for the same reasons. Yes, there’s likely much future value in Tesla and web3. But the rapid recent growth is mostly indicative of the fed money machine going brrr.

PaulHoule · 4 years ago
People frequently mistake "inflation" for "hyperinflation".

Zimbabwe had hyperinflation. Zimbabwe had a $100 trillion dollar bill:

https://www.dallasfed.org/assets/documents/institute/annual/...

If we had 20% inflation per year for the next decade in the US that would be high inflation but wouldn't be hyperinflation. We are nowhere near that.

I wonder if the crypto bubble creates a "wealth effect" that makes people feel richer, spend money, and drive inflation.

SubiculumCode · 4 years ago
hyperinflation is hyperbole. Our inflation: 5% since last year. Hyper inflation: ~50% per month https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hyperinflation.asp
thoughtstheseus · 4 years ago
The S&P 500 returned > 30% over the last year. Inflation shows up in many places.
keyle · 4 years ago
It's true. Every time governments have given a cash bonus away, these "instruments" took a major lift for no fundamental reason.
jazzyjackson · 4 years ago
Highly recommend episode #231 of Lex Fridman talking to Alex Gladstein - it's a long but interesting discussion on human rights, democracy, totalitarianism, and how money fits into the picture. Alex describes BTC as a trojan horse, a "number go up" technology that attracts buyers by being the best performing asset (certainly a tautology, it keeps performing well because it's been performing well) - once it becomes the currency du jour of dictators, those very dictators that instituted it as currency may find that they've lost control of their citizens, since they can more easily exfiltrate their wealth. (my answer to your question is, people value money that is not controlled by their government, and also serious Fear-Of-Missing-Out)

Don't come counter-arguing to me tho, I'm not the Chief Strategy Officer of the Human Rights Foundation, Alex Gladstein is, he makes the argument better than I.

mohanmcgeek · 4 years ago
> people value money that is not controlled by their government.

And that's how banknotes came into being

Reserve banks are banks, not their respective countries governments

wnkrshm · 4 years ago
That's not how a quick read of the wikipedia page on the history of bank notes reads. It reads like bank notes were the result of the shortcomings of coins, i.e. that you had to have actual precious metal to mint them. And the first bank notes as currency were used within the national governments' jurisdictions and juristically established as currency. [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknote#History

a_square_peg · 4 years ago
I think crypto space has managed to create a class of unregulated financial instruments and markets - I feel like I'm watching what would happen if the stock market was not regulated at all. If I were Wall Street trader, I think this is really fascinating - sufficient amount to be interesting (billions of dollars at play) and regulators are yet to make sense of what's going on.

FYI, there are less than 5000 publicly traded companies in the US but more than 6000 cryptocurrencies.

matt_s · 4 years ago
Your comment maybe implies that maybe Wall Street is watching from a distance. I think Wall St and large banks are deep into crypto, they have to be the cause of large swings in price movement, individuals rarely have $billions that can be moved around.

A financial market with zero regulation and full anonymity? I bet it has brought all sorts of normally illegal money movements and transactions to it. Even coordinated pump and dumps are 100% possible without legal repercussions, as far as I understand it.

moepstar · 4 years ago
Actually, it's way more than 6000..

CoinMarketCap lists 13684, Coingecko lists 10394 - which probably includes a truckload of BSC "shitcoins", getting more by the minute...

GamblersFallacy · 4 years ago
Actually, its way more than 10394.

Uniswap v2 factory contract returns 55,319 trading pairs.

On the etherscan readContract page for the uniswap factory, the allPairsLength method returns index size.

https://etherscan.io/address/0x5c69bee701ef814a2b6a3edd4b165...

10000truths · 4 years ago
Cryptocurrency is backed by the same thing as any other currency: popularity and consumer confidence. Whether such sentiments are "warranted" or "deserved" is a subjective matter, but that is irrelevant to determining its economic influence - enough people have invested in it for network effects to all but guarantee its continued relevance.
civilized · 4 years ago
> Cryptocurrency is backed by the same thing as any other currency: popularity and consumer confidence.

I don't think currency is just a confidence game. The most important thing is that the currency is actually used to make transactions that are meaningful to human life. A currency that isn't used to exchange goods is just a collectible. There is no such thing as an abstract "store of value" that has no actual utility other than as a store of value. Crypto will fail when people tire of owning the collectible and want to exchange it for something useful.

StanislavPetrov · 4 years ago
>The most important thing is that the currency is actually used to make transactions that are meaningful to human life.

Millions of people use cryptocurrency on a daily basis to make transactions that are not only meaningful, but absolutely critical to human life. Here in New York I personally know more than a dozen people who regularly send cryptocurrency to their families in other countries. It is cheaper, easier and faster than using banks and legacy money transfer vehicles like Moneygram or Western Union and it has the added bonus of not being saddled with the red tape or regulatory requirements that go along with these institutions.

Here's one personal anecdote. Several years ago I attempted to send a small amount of money ($50) to a friend in Ecuador via Moneygram. When my friend went to pick up the money, it wasn't there, so I called Moneygram. They proceeded to ask me a series of questions about why I sent the money, who I was sending it to, and a variety of other intrusive questions that (in my opinion) they have absolutely no right to ask. If I had sent that money in crypto, I would have paid less of a fee and had confidence it would arrive without going through the third degree by a middle man.

I find that wealthy people, those with deep ties to traditional banking systems and those who don't value their privacy are the ones who have the biggest problem understanding the value in cryptocurrency. They don't see the need to operate outside of a system that works very well for them. For many, the system doesn't work well, or efficiently, and crypto offers a valuable alternative.

civilized · 4 years ago
I suppose I should mention a data point that might go against my own thesis: the performance of gold. While gold has some legitimate uses in jewelry and technology, its price in recent years seems to be driven mostly by financial speculation, the same "store of value" theory that drives crypto.

I think this theory is nonsense but it's true that if enough people believe it, it can become sort-of-true for a while, until it's not anymore.

imtringued · 4 years ago
Most fiat currencies are backed by the fact that people made themselves liable to accept that currency. It's a literal "I owe you". A restaurant owner promises to work to earn money, the bank gives the restaurant owner money via a loan. The money is spent on a bigger restaurant, the construction workers who built the restaurant get the money and they can then go to the restaurant and pay to eat there. They don't have to worry whether their shiny rock is currently worth something. The restaurant owner has a loan he wants to repay. He'll gladly take your money. At the end of the day it is just delayed barter.

Except, nothing forces people to spend their money so the barter transaction may never conclude which allows economic imbalances to build up over the short term which violentely resolve themselves through a crash. Inflation could be interpreted as a tiny crash every year that rebalances transactions made in the economy.

thoughtstheseus · 4 years ago
The one exception is when you go to pay your taxes.
lifekaizen · 4 years ago
I'm on the pro-crypto side, but the US dollar has more than consumer confidence, it has the largest armed forces the world has ever seen. So a better comparison is something like gold, I think, that has value because we say it has value (it's shiny! and rare...)... which is fine, just different.
JohnFen · 4 years ago
I'm not "anti-crypto", but reason that I won't touch it is that it's not stable. With dollars, I know that the money will have a roughly constant value across time. Cryptocurrencies do the opposite of that. By the measure of stability, gold is also preferable to crytocurrency.

If I were a speculator, that instability would be attractive. But I'm not.

mohanmcgeek · 4 years ago
> the same thing as any other currency: popularity and consumer confidence

Real money is backed by your obligation to pay taxes in that currency.. not popularity or confidence.

DennisP · 4 years ago
People manage to come up with mediums of exchange even in the absence of taxing governments.
belltaco · 4 years ago
You mean speculator confidence.