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munificent · 4 years ago
I've worked in private offices, cubicles, open plan offices, coffeeshops, libraries, and now many many hours in home both when other family members are around and when they aren't. I spend a lot of time thinking about sound and focus.

The conclusion I came to is that humans have a few emotional needs in order to reach deep focus:

1. We need to not be distracted and we need to feel certainty that we will not be distracted. Before we are comfortable untaking the work to architect a giant mental castle, we need to feel confident that someone won't come around to kick it down.

2. At a more primitive, simian level, we need to feel that we're in a safe environment. It's hard to focus on code if you're worried that a tree is going to fall on you or a lion will drag you off into the jungle.

When it comes to sound, those can be opposing. Because we are a social species, I think one of the things that makes us feel most secure is the ambient present of a fellow tribe. To our early ancestors, dead silence meant you were alone, and being alone in the wilderness was often a death sentence. We instinctively feel safest when we hear the chatter and hub-bub of relaxed tribemates puttering around nearby. We know we're not alone, that there are others will also be alerted if something happens, and that they also feel safe.

But the presence of fellow people can also mean that at any moment one of them might wander over and start talking to us. So hearing that ambient chatter can make it really hard to focus.

This is, I think, part of why working in a coffeeshop can be so effective. You get the sense of safety in numbers, but since they are all strangers and at least in the US the social norms go against talking to strangers, you know the odds are slim that you'll actually be interrupted.

Uberphallus · 4 years ago
> we need to feel certainty that we will not be distracted.

This, so, much. Working from home with a young kid around, it always feels like something's gonna fall, the cat is gonna fight back, mom is gonna get mad at him for some reason, or simply he needs me to go play with him. I never know if I have 5 minutes or 3 hours.

Nowadays I tend to not work so much during the day as I don't have the means to focus, then work into the night.

bcrosby95 · 4 years ago
Sounds like you guys haven't established any work boundaries. It can be impossible if both of you work. But if not....

I've worked at home for about 17 years now. I have a 6 year old, two 3 year olds, and my wife is a stay at home mom. I don't get interrupted, and there's never been an age range where I would regularly get interrupted. At the most frequent, maybe once per week. Definitely not even once per day though.

hutzlibu · 4 years ago
"Nowadays I tend to not work so much during the day as I don't have the means to focus, then work into the night. "

And be nevertheless woken up early in the morning by your toddlers ...

throwaway743 · 4 years ago
Personally, having people around, hearing speech (and involuntarily passively processing that speech), on top of environmental noises, is utterly distracting and hinders any kind of productivity.

While I'm working, preferably alone, ear buds are in and a long instrumental track is played on loop, so that noise is drowned out, don't get distracted by having to select another song, and there's no need for my brain to process speech. It's amazing how well it works in keeping me focused.

As of late, been playing Autechre's "Bike"

gunfighthacksaw · 4 years ago
Yea at work there was talk of installing an ambient noise machine in the new office because the “silence was too stifling”.

I have no idea what that meant then, nor do I now. I found the new larger space with ~5 people scattered around absolutely heavenly to work in.

spaetzleesser · 4 years ago
I don't think there is one correct way. Sometimes I like some noise, sometimes I don't, sometimes I like having people around, sometimes I want to be alone.

In the end it's about being able to control your environment to some degree. That's what open offices and cube farms have taken away.

Being able to control room temprature is also very helpful.

alfonsodev · 4 years ago
The place I focus the most is in an airplane.

Maybe as you are saying the presence of fellow tribe, but in this case I know they won't come to talk because we all have the seat belt, and when the is allowed to take it off, it's the social norm to minimise interactions due to the reduced space, people usually keep the norm to enable the corridor just for the staff and trips to the bathroom.

But additionally:

- Being offline, also makes you feel certain no one will interrupt you electronically.

- No one would expect you to get anything done in airplane, and that can feel like a liberation, meaning you can catch up and the time feels "free".

- Timing is programmed, start and end and the food breaks in between are scheduled and announced.

- And the noise inside the cabin combined with noise cancelling headphones, I don't know why, it helps.

adventured · 4 years ago
> We instinctively feel safest when we hear the chatter and hub-bub of relaxed tribemates puttering around nearby. We know we're not alone, that there are others will also be alerted if something happens, and that they also feel safe.

I can confirm that is false.

If it were an actual instinct, I would possess it as would essentially all people. I do not possess that instinct what-so-ever.

I do not gain an increased feeling of safety from the chatter and hub-bub of relaxed tribemates puttering nearby.

That context annoys me, rather than increasing my sense of comfort.

There are multiple types of primary human personalities, not one. I'm a non-tribalist personality type. That means tribes don't tend to like me and I don't tend to like tribes. The tribe and I are not friends, we're closer to suspicious enemies. I disagree with tribal order. By default my personality rebels against tribal structures and most systems like that. I don't do well following others that attempt to command me (tribal systems always have some manner of hierarchy). I operate at a vastly higher degree of effectiveness without lots of other people around. I'm happier and more productive on my own or in small teams.

This isn't a personality I developed over time through great effort. It has been that way at least as far back as 4-6 years of age. I've also spent my life from 15-40 years of age as an entrepreneur. I can be a decent employee, however I dislike it.

I'm a disagreeable personality (to others), as such I'm poorly suited to government, consensus structures, tribal systems, politics and the like. I also don't enjoy asking permission first and I never seek approval from others, I very rarely get a personal sense of reward from the approval of others. That said, the people I do like, I like immensely; and I'm kind toward others who are kind toward me, I believe manners are important, politeness/kindness are important. I used to refer to myself as a lone wolf personality type, as opposed to a tribalist personality type; however that phrase has a particularly negative connotation these days.

I seek to pile up a lot of money to get away from most aspects of society (in a comfortable manner), rather than to sit on top of society or eg receive prestige from a prominent place in society.

Jensson · 4 years ago
> The tribe and I are not friends

Then they aren't "chatter and hub-bub of relaxed tribemates", rather to you it is "the whispers and noises of your enemies". Of course that wont get you relaxed. The effect comes from hearing people you are comfortable around talking, if you have a distrustful personality then likely you aren't comfortable around many people but the effect is still there, just that you lack another link.

munificent · 4 years ago
> f it were an actual instinct, I would possess it as would essentially all people. I do not possess that instinct what-so-ever.

The existence of variation does not disprove the existence of trends.

twofornone · 4 years ago
>If it were an actual instinct, I would possess it as would essentially all people. I do not possess that instinct what-so-ever.

I don't think it's necessarily valid to expect that all peoples have evolved the same set of instincts. Particularly given adaptation to vastly different environments over the last 200k or so years after leaving africa. This particular instinct would not likely be a prerequisite for survival and may not have occured even among all members of a given tribe.

uptownfunk · 4 years ago
Is this why I have my best thoughts in the shower?
roland35 · 4 years ago
I prefer to call it the personal wet meditation chamber
rootusrootus · 4 years ago
Personally, I think so. I get the same effect if I'm in the hot tub with the jets running. White noise blocks distractions pretty well, so my brain can get lost in thought.
winrid · 4 years ago
Is that why you're so clean?
jjtheblunt · 4 years ago
your point #1 is _exactly_ what i've learned empirically too, and with great unbounded frustration trying to explain it to a particular super manic super adhd super video-watching person i'm married to.
tarsinge · 4 years ago
Your theory is interesting but what about the studies that link noise to stress and health issues?[0] Maybe background noises of voices have a different effect?

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5898791/

542354234235 · 4 years ago
The study focuses on three main things: road noise, air traffic noise, and industry noise. As part of that, it shows the link between annoyance at a noise and the chronic stress, anxiety, and health issues that come from that. For instance, Fig. 7 shows people are far more annoyed by road and aircraft noise than other types, including “neighborhood” noise, and Fig. 8 that shows the link between annoyance and rates of various issues. So it doesn’t seem to be saying that any noise leads to negative effects, but that specific types of noises act as a kind of environmental pollution.
munificent · 4 years ago
I think the kind of "noise" discussed in the study here is different from something like the hubbub in a coffeeshop:

> Recently, we demonstrated that aircraft noise exposure during nighttime can induce endothelial dysfunction in healthy subjects and is even more pronounced in coronary artery disease patients.

Obviously, no one enjoys being woken up at night by passing airplanes.

bittercynic · 4 years ago
Having mature dogs is fantastic in this regard. They generally won't bother you unless there's a good reason, but you can feel assured that a tiger will not be able to sneak up on you without the dogs warning you about it.
giardini · 4 years ago
This does happen occasionally, in this case last May -

"Tiger loose in Houston for a week finally captured":

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/tiger-loose-in-houston-...

irrational · 4 years ago
Are tigers a typical concern where you live?
gzer0 · 4 years ago
This is articulated particularly nicely and captures what I have observed myself. Thanks for sharing.
neom · 4 years ago
I almost can't work without the radio on. I can buy the comment that said we want people near us to work. I like working at home with the radio on, no one will bug me, but maybe it feels like people are around?
oldie · 4 years ago
I'm a software engineer. I choose music or silence tactically. If I need to power myself through a task, I use music to do it. If I'm trying to solve a difficult problem or master a complex body of unfamiliar code, I need silence.

Before WFH become the norm in early 2020, there were days when I made no progress at all until everyone else had gone home. The precious hour between 5pm and 6pm -- when the cleaners came and talked to me and broke my concentration again -- was sometimes more productive than the entire day that led up to it.

What also helps, working alone, is the ability to talk out loud to yourself. For me, it's a superpower. I dread losing it if Management decides to pull us all back into the office when the pandemic is over. (Or, even worse, continually talking to myself without realising it. :-))

tharkun__ · 4 years ago
I wouldn't be able to work if the radio was on. I can buy that we want people near us not to feel alone. I get that too when nobody else is in the house and I'm alone and not working. You suddenly focus on a lot of noises you otherwise wouldn't and wonder if they're normal. That cracking noise your roof structure makes in 0F weather? You don't even notice when people are around but you wonder if someone is breaking into your house if you're alone and hear it.

I work best when it's "completely silent". By that I don't mean actually completely silent but I certainly don't want radio or any other kinds of chatter. I also can't stand noise from ventilation, such as the AC. I do know that a lot of people even buy "white noise machines" e.g. for sleeping. I can't understand why people would voluntarily import that kind of noise. I actively try to get rid of it as much as I can, such as turning the AC way up ahead of going to bed and shutting it off for going to sleep.

All that to say that we're all very different. He doesn't state absolute truths.

    Imagine sitting in a noisy cafe but still working on your paper because you don’t know anyone and don’t have the context of any discussion.
This is a really hard environment to get anything done in. I have trouble just reading a book in such an environment, because usually you _do_ hear individual conversations from your neighbours. If it's so noisy that you can't, then the "white noise" is so loud that it overpowers everything and that is what disturbs me.

reactspa · 4 years ago
By "radio on" did you mean you're listening to a radio channel or to white noise?
philipov · 4 years ago
This is also why streaming like twitch is so effective as background noise. I can put on a streamer in the background and unlike a podcast, not feel the need to pay attention to what's going on at all.
odyssey7 · 4 years ago
And yet, as a freelancer/work-from-homer, I am told that my coffee shop receipts are not tax-deductible.
clairity · 4 years ago
you need to reclassify it as temp hourly office space with coffee included (half-joking). coffee shops (implicitly or explicitly) price in the cost table time into the drinks. that’s why they’re like $5 rather than $2.

incidentally that’s also why we should all buy something every hour or two, and buying to-go is basically overpaying (which is fine, especially if you want to support your locally-owned coffee joint).

edit: i should add that i’ve preferred working from a cafe over home (or the library, or even a quiet office) since i started the habit in college. similar to the root comment, it’s because there’s enough familiar noise, but not too many familiar people (but greater than zero people).

ipaddr · 4 years ago
Who told you that?
Eric_WVGG · 4 years ago
good observations, I’ve had some similar theories that you have better articulated

https://noiz.io was a lifesaver during quar’. virtual coffeeshop, artificial rain storms, even an ST:TNG-style outer space hum

saila · 4 years ago
https://mynoise.net/ is my goto for noise. I usually go for basic pink or brown noise, but they have a bunch of other fun and interesting sounds too.

I have pink noise playing pretty much all the time at home. Not only does it mask some intermittent ambient noise, it's also too quiet without it. (Edit: I use sox in the terminal for this. Install sox then play -n synth pinknoise.)

Just noticed the same person made https://noises.online/ too, which is like a simplified, browser-only version of myNoise ... and you can share mixes like https://noises.online/player.php?g=ca3fa3ib3

davidjytang · 4 years ago
Some of my most productive sessions are at night all quiet just me and my computer with no music playing and for sure no one would be talking to me. (Sometimes I do to myself.)

Maybe I don't care for tribemates?

nickthemagicman · 4 years ago
Holy cow you have articulated what I've been feeling for decades. This is great!

Having the ambient noise and not feeling alone and vulnerable but also feeling safe and amongst people is like the perfect set up for deep concentration for me.

Jentifgq · 4 years ago
The waiter asking every 10 minutes if I want more coffee or would like to order something/ is everything alright is quite distracting though?
ashupadhi01 · 4 years ago
New to hackernews
Isthatablackgsd · 4 years ago
I am Deaf myself and using my hearing aids all of my life. One thing I discovered that silence is the best productivity focus for me. During my job, I always keep my hearing aids off. This helps with my ADHD as I am easily distracted when there is a sound involved, sometime causes me to ‘hyperfocus’ in my “world” than doing my job. And interesting that I found that keeping my hearing aids off makes the time around me become slow. With the hearing aids on, it amplified the stimulation on my brain in a way which make it feel like the time is in turbo mode.

I recently discovered this “ability” and start doing my job without hearing aids. Basically, silence is golden for me and helps a lot with my productivity.

jck · 4 years ago
I also have ADHD, but not hearing problems and suffer some of the problems you describe. However, silence doesn't seem to help my productivity and sometimes makes me anxious too.

What helps me is predictable sounds - like music I've listened to many times before.

MobiusHorizons · 4 years ago
I have certain albums that I have listened to straight through many times now while getting work done. They no longer distract me basically at all, so I can work very effectively.

I have also found that certain not types of older TV shows hit the white noise level where they get me moving, but don't pull me out of my thoughts too often. This is mostly for things where the goal is just to keep moving on something, not where the goal is to think deeply.

iroddis · 4 years ago
I have similar issues with distractibility with sounds. Music sometimes helps, and white noise is good, but sometimes I’d love to be able to just turn my ears off.

The worst situation is feeling the need for enough audio stimuli to feel “right”, but that level is too distracting to allow for focus.

Isthatablackgsd · 4 years ago
Agreed with you there. It is so hard to find the right sounds that could help me to focus but it turns out it made it worse. There are few sounds that does help me to focus like heartbeating, I have a 30min opus file that is purely heartbeats. I gravities toward repeating sounds because they are easier to focus as they are rhythmic. Anything that are not rhythmic will mess with my pacing.
randcraw · 4 years ago
I find that wearing hearing protector earmuffs (like the 3M Peltor Optime, which cuts 30 dB) cuts out so much sound that I feel almost stone deaf and the rest of the world goes away. It takes a little practice for them not to be disquieting, but it helps if I turn my attention elsewhere.
motohagiography · 4 years ago
Very odd question, but if as a person experiencing difficulty hearing who can get partial hearing from a hearing aid, can you experience binaural beats, which are essentially non-sound neurological artifacts of the brain processing and filtering slightly different tones?

Meta analysis of them here, https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00426-018-1066-8 , full paper is on sci-hub.

Almost everything about binaural beats is very non-sciency and full of woo and nonsense, but if the ability to "hear" the brain artifact that doesn't register on the spectrogram of the sound caused by them were different for people experiencing hearing loss, experiencing the binaural beat "tone" in your head could indicate the persistence of some kind of physiological effect independent of direct hearing ability. If a person with reduced hearing didn't hear the binaural beat artifact, it would probably be just a harmonic or a simple wave interference pattern, and not the mysterious phenomenon it gets sold as.

I ask because they are a particular type of noise that you can use for focus and consistency to drown out other noises, similar to white, pink, rain sounds and other flavours of noise.

Isthatablackgsd · 4 years ago
I am not sure if I can hear binaural beats. I tried a few of them in the past and always found them… mm what that word… like “metal rubbing on other metal” sounds which I don’t like and felt randomized. They don’t work for me. I am not sure if my hearing aids have something to do with it. Hearing aids does modify the sounds from the microphone and amplifies & output various range to get closer to “normal hearing level” to the ear. So, I don’t know if my hearing aids is outputting the binaural sounds correctly as it is intended to.

It is hard to find sound generators that would produce rhythmic beats rather than randomizing few beats here and there. Something like “beeee boop beeee boop beeee boop” or “swish bah swish bah swish bah” beats is what I prefer. My partner always looks at me funny everything I dance when my top-loader washing machine is on because it always produces simple rhythmic beats. Same for my dishwasher sounds.

CoastalCoder · 4 years ago
I have ADHD, and when it works well, the hyper-focus effect is similar to what you describe with your hearing aids turned off.

But for me, the outside world's time seems to go faster, not slower. It's like the more I'm focusing on my task at hand, the less I notice the passage of time around me.

I'm curious why our hyper-focus experiences differ in that way.

bduerst · 4 years ago
The phenomenon you're describing psychological flow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

Where time perception starts to skip as the brain becomes hyper focused on a task. One of the things I've noticed (having ADD) is that it's easy to enter into flow and accomplish much, but can be difficult to master what you enter flow with.

Isthatablackgsd · 4 years ago
My theory it is something to do with our senses. Since I have a hearing disability, so that ‘hearing’ sense is not functioning as in turn amplifying my other senses. I am going with the assumption that you are hearing (it a Deaf community lingo for people who have functioning hearings), so you have five senses operating at the same time. For me, I only have four senses operating at the same time. So with the hearing aid, my hearing sense will be “on” which maybe put more work for my brain to process everything else. Without the hearing aid, which my hearing sense is simply off. So, my brain can spend all of the “processing power” into other four senses which made me feel like the passage of time becoming slow. That is my theory is what I have so far. I don’t know if this is valid theory.
Bedon292 · 4 years ago
That is quite an interesting difference from me. I have to have sound or else there is absolutely no chance for me to focus. Primarily music with a lot of bass. Podcasts are bad though as that requires paying attention. Perhaps the music serves to block out other possible distractions. If you make me sit around in silence, I will be all over the place and unable to focus. It feels like I require some level of sensory input, and once that is maxed out I can actually get things done.
Isthatablackgsd · 4 years ago
Funny enough, I learnt from my partner (who is hearing) that hearing peoples do not like silence or anything that are too quiet. If there is a silence between the sentence or words, people often will instinct-ly fills those silence with fluff words like “um”, “mm”, “well” to be still in turn of the conversation. If there is a silence, they will assume that it is their turn to initiate the conversation further. Deaf communities don’t use that kind of nuances and it is a culture shock for me to learn how hearing people MUST have sounds anywhere.
new_guy · 4 years ago
I wear ear plugs basically turning my ears 'off', that's the only thing that makes me productive.
rosstex · 4 years ago
This article does everything except actually answering the question in the title.
ninjinxo · 4 years ago
I think it may be a GPT3 blog:

>Noise is necessary for our brains to function in an orderly fashion. In the book The Signal and the Noise, Nate Silver says that “The signal is the truth. The noise is what distracts us from the truth.”7 Andrew Smart adds that “there are many circumstances in which the addition of the right amount of noise actually boosts the signal.” So within the randomness of the noise, we can achieve greater creativity as the randomness of evolution brings the best out of humans.

anonu · 4 years ago
I like the thought. The article is not very coherent, you're right... But it did fool me.
exciteabletom · 4 years ago
It's insane to me that we have already got to a point where we are struggling to differentiate CG text from real articles.
jcun4128 · 4 years ago
Hmm imagine a GTP3 based VTuber on YT that used a random character generator
1cvmask · 4 years ago
Clearly more noise than signal from the author.
revolvingocelot · 4 years ago
It's like a recipe blog, but for half-baked musings
jonnycomputer · 4 years ago
It isn't a good article. Some of the things don't make sense. And it shies away from anything in depth. It really may be a GPT3 blog post, as others suggest.
zzzeek · 4 years ago
went looking for some interesting neurological findings and found a very poor repurposing of a Nate Silver quote that was referring to statistics, not neurology.
jdowner · 4 years ago
I had a similar hope. Not long into the article, it was apparent that the author was not using the term 'noise' in a particularly well-defined way. For me, 'noise' is unstructured sound. People talking is structured, which is why it is a problem. I used to block out people in the office by listening to heavy metal, but in the end I found listening to actual noise was more effective for me to get my work done. So I was hoping the article was going to dig more into that side of things.
sbmthakur · 4 years ago
This was true for Von Neumann:

Von Neumann did some of his best work in noisy, chaotic environments, and once admonished his wife for preparing a quiet study for him to work in. He never used it, preferring the couple's living room with its television playing loudly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann

bumbada · 4 years ago
It depends on where you are raised.

I need to make deals in cities like New York, or London or Paris, Frankfurt, or Madrid.

At buildings, specially hotels in those cities there is a constant hum, low level noise all the time that is specially present when you need to sleep.

People that are raised in cities are hearing this sound all the time. I was raised outside them so for me this sound is alien but for those people it means "home".

It was incredible being in Paris or Madrid center with COVID and hearing birds as background instead of road sounds.

I need birds or sea waves or tree leaves sounds in order to work and focus. Cars or air blowers sounds are really distracting for me.

alberth · 4 years ago
Isn't it as simple as: to concentrate well - you need to remove distractions. Too much noise is distracting but, having zero noise is also distracting because inevitable something will cause noise and your attention will be drawn to it.

Hence why white noise is so effective because it's the middle of these two things.

cranesnakecode · 4 years ago
I'd like to see less research about how we turn ourselves into optimal work machines and more research about how we reach a maximum vividness of conscious experience.
andyp-kw · 4 years ago
So what's stopping you from researching it?