Microsoft doing exactly the same thing they were, twenty plus years ago, with the IE vs Netscape browser wars. At least they're consistent about being hostile. And now, of course, their main competition is Chrome and Google.
I would encourage anyone who doesn't use Windows 10 on a regular basis to take a look at what the 'defaults' are that Microsoft steers people towards on a brand new Win10 Home installation. Including the creation of a Microsoft account, bing, edge, all the telemetry turned on, etc. Just... Yuck.
It's not just Windows 10 Home. I have Windows 10 Pro. The other day after rebooting my laptop, I was prompted yet again with that setup page that tries to enable useless shit like Office 365 and change my default browser to Edge. Honestly not sure how this can be legal after they got busted for something relatively mundane like setting the default to IE in the past.
Looking at past legislation/court rulings from the early days of the internet is pointless. They ruled that AOL had to allow other applications access to AOL IM, yet present day third party apps aren't given access to Apple's iMessages or Facebook Messenger.
It's actually the main reason I despise Apple for how it locks down iOS : it's not that I care specifically about that, but it creates cover for this kind of thing. The bar has been raised across the board now for what is tolerated.
Here's the thing - there's an actual reason that is beneficial to 90% of their customers that they do this. Let's take my wife. She got her lenovo laptop because it was silver and really thin, and had a touchscreen. She doesn't know what specs are - the laptop is just a tool.
When she goes to do a google search, google's page keeps pushing chrome in her face. While she's trying to search for listings of gigs needing translation from Mandarin, Japanese, or Cantonese into English, the page she's on tells her she needs to click here and install chrome. She doesn't know what a browser or a Chrome are, so she thinks it's something she needs to do for the work search. Bam - she's now using Chrome. And he doesn't even notice the browser changed. Nor does she care. She never meant to install it or switch to it. Google is a bad player, and windows will check and once in a while ask if she wants to switch it back. Good. Me, a firefox user - I have literally zero issue clicking "no, leave my browser alone" twice a year.
She uses some office apps for spreadsheet type work, and msword. She uses some windows functions like copying files, and backing up her phone.
Telemetry lets microsoft know what she's doing, where she's getting confused or going into a loop pattern to do something, and when she tries something and gives up after it not making sense. They use that telemetry to improve their programs for people like her. Me - I turned that off. It's as easy as downloading winaero and clicking "disable telemetry" and "disable ads."
This is not illegal because it's literally what 90% of Windows users want. People who don't want that are technically apt, and it takes about 2 minutes for us to turn that off. It's just a default for 90% of the users - a correct one.
Monopolies don't see themselves like a normal business, one that has to compete for customers by serving them well. Instead, their thinking is more like a cattle rancher: the users are their property, to pen and milk as they see fit.
Between hostile defaults, dark patterns in opting-out and unsubscribing, and persistent surveillance, a lot of consumer-facing tech these days is taking on what an obsessive abusive partner would do. I can't help but wonder if these systems are a reflection of who those designers are as people.
It's really sad how quickly we all forget. I know people who are a bit younger than I am, and came onto the internet in the 00s, after the height of MS's anti-competitive behavior in the 80s and 90s. I occasionally will talk about how I can never trust MS again, but they're a lot more forgiving, and believe that MS has changed, especially after Gates and Ballmer stepped down and Nadella took the reins.
I remember a couple years ago when I bought a new laptop (with Windows 10 on it). I just wanted to get into Windows far enough so I could download a Debian installer and write it to a USB stick, and I was appalled at Windows' first-run setup experience, and the personal information it wanted me to give them, as well as the sheer volume of telemetry, ads, and other spyware I had to explicitly opt out of. And even then, MS was still pushing Edge and Cortana in my face all over the place.
My last serious use of Windows was Windows 2000, and man, things have gone super downhill since then.
I'm bummed that I was right to continue to not trust MS, but... well, there we have it.
> Microsoft doing exactly the same thing they were, twenty plus years ago,
They never stopped, one big reason why Firefox restricts what plugins users can install was Windows installing plugins that could not be removed or disabled.
McAfee seems to have found a way around this. I picked up a new laptop for my parents a few weeks ago and found that the pre-installed crapware injects plugins to every browser you install.
Hmm, do you recall any details about those things? My impression was that the bad extensions mostly came from the antivirus vendors, but I may be missing something as I didn't daily drive Windows for a period, and I'm interested in the details. Thanks!
Edge is messed up, in that you cannot change the default search engine. It only changes the search engine for the URL bar, not for the new tab page (which is likely used just as much). I'm not aware of any other browser that does this. It's so cartoonish that I couldn't believe it when I found out.
You can configure the start page to use the address bar for search. That takes the cake for the most-obfuscated-default-search-setting, but at least the start page will send queries to DDG.
I really wish they'd focus on just making be best HW/SW that they can and respecting the user. For awhile I was rooting for them, they seemed the least bad of the tech giants. I was hoping they'd strategically differentiate themselves from the antitrust FAAG pack (Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Google).
To be pragmatic to an excess-- where is their incentive to? I agree this is an issue, and more than that a pattern-- but they seem to be any to continue unimpeded. I imagine when they push initiatives like this at meetings, they consider the risk- reward metric of such decisions. In this case, I don't think they'll see much real risk except for some grumbling as we are now
You mean rely and hope that whatever the user installed as the default browser will not mess-up help, documentation and other such links?
I'm quite certain that all those non-standard URLs are all for internal links to OS-related information hosted on the web. If they instead just popped a custom app that hosted an Edge webview nobody would rip their shirts. Doing that would be ridiculous given that Edge is just there and has been tested and vetted by QA.
Don't forget that these things need to work on all versions of the OS and in all locales. You're asking MS to trust that any 3rd party app will give proper user experience for any locale when presenting such links.
It's not as-if MS was hijacking normal URLs. But ripping shirts is soooo much fun.
Apple is fine on macOS — changing your default browser is a simple setting. Their behavior on iOS, though (outright preventing installation of other browsers) should be illegal, IMO.
Ultimately though regardless of who is doing it, it is user hostile and needs to stop. Apple restricting browser engines on iOS doesn't somehow make Microsoft's steering and suppression of other browsers on Windows acceptable.
Not really. In the Apple ecosystem, stuff either works or it doesn't. iOS doesn't let you install alternative browser engines. macOS does. Both of them let you use a browser shell of your choice.
None of this "you can install a browser, but we're going to lie cheat and steal to stop you" dark patterns nonsense. As a user, Apple just tells you No, and you get to decide if you want to live with that or not.
As a user, Apple allows you to change your default browser in both iOS and macOS quite easily.
As a developer you can build a browser on top of whatever rendering engine you want, as long as you want to use the built-in WebKit.
Crucially, they are plenty clear about what is, or isn't allowed (well, mostly — plenty of app review horror stories around here), and all of that happens in the interaction with developers. The user experience is always pretty decent, and you don't have to deal with this whole "do this in 10 locations" nonsense.
Well, seeing that Google and Apple do the same on their OS they might even get through with it. iOS doesn't even allow alternative browser backends, so the bar is not even reached for MS.
I find it hilarious that HN assumes that MS or any company should devote effort to supporting users who hate all their core products and only use Windows begrudgingly. Why even bother, if you could leave you already would have.
I booted up Windows this weekend, and immediately was forced to login to my MS account, and it attempted to change my default browser. The solution was to reboot, pick Ubuntu from the Grub menu and to then delete the Windows partition and give the space to Ubuntu. I'm tired of fighting with computers I own that don't work for me.
This has been my response as well. I now understand why it's so important to contribute to free culture--whether operating systems or hardware. (Related aside: I'm very excited to be installing Pop!_OS on a frame.work laptop in a couple of weeks. I know it won't be perfect, but as a software engineer I intend to contribute to making things closer to perfect).
I’ve been using PopOS for work and leisure and I’d say it’s closer to (my version of) perfect than mac or windows! Firstly, it’s super fast and snappy compared to windows on the same hardware (or the best Intel MBP available). And secondly, software support is really good these days, at least for my use case! (Web dev + gaming)
Have you tried LTSC? It's a feature-stripped version of windows 10, which is far more user-friendly simply because it doesn't try to do much at all, while still providing security updates. I'm no expert and licensing is a bit complicated, but if you want a workable windows 10 environment I couldn't recommend it more highly.
No, I haven't. Sounds like an improvement. Regular Windows 10 is trying way too hard, and I think somewhere lots it's compass. The P in PC stands for something really important.
Leave it to Microsoft to be openly user-hostile in every way possible, knowing perfectly well that it won't hurt their market share one bit. I have no idea why people think this is a different Microsoft now than it was under Ballmer.
Yeah it seems like they just waited for a new generation of consumers to grow up without knowing it is a trap. That plus waiting for the regulatory environment to give up on anti-trust almost entirely.
Whatever advantages Apple has over Microsoft (build quality, UX, polish, customer service, etc.), Apple is definitely not gaining on Microsoft because of greater customization options. Most OSX users just use Safari.
I used Windows 10 for the first time in years and was taken aback by the fact that despite Firefox being my default browser, a ton of Microsofty things open in Edge anyways. For example: search a term in the start menu and get the magnifying glass options for looking up related terms. They all just open in Edge for me anyway.
I don't get how a lot of the things in this thread are hostile or a problem, case in point this example. It's definitely an argument that Windows functions aren't very customizable, but at the end of the day it is a Microsoft product that integrates only with other Microsoft products.
> Brave Software is also considering taking things one step further. The company is planning to intercept Windows Search/Cortana links to Bing and redirect them to its users’ default search engine instead.
Yes! THANK YOU! OH MY GOD THANK YOU BRAVE!! FINALLY!
Devil's advocate: if the link is in a Windows component, then it would somewhat make sense that clicking the link would open it in a first-party application which the OS vendor can control. If the association with http: URLs somehow got messed up (e.g. the default web browser got broken due to something outside Microsoft's control), you'd be in a worse situation than if the Control Panel etc. used a simpler but fully supported first party web browser.
Core help links in Windows used to use an embedded version of the system browser (at the time IE) originally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Compiled_HTML_Help. If they wanted to do that today for the above reasons they could do the same with WebView2 which is the OS embedded version of Edge. Instead they are launching the external instance of Edge which can still be screwed up for reasons outside the OS's control (such as an experimental edge://flags option that causes a crash on launch).
Blink is Chrome's engine. Blink is not Chrome. The Brave browser also uses Blink, for instance. Microsoft has been in the browser business for a long time and takes security updates seriously, to the point of force-updating people's machines which people gripe about.
Firefox is great yes, viva la resistance. Unfortunately I'm seeing more sites with quirks on Firefox so I tend to use both Firefox and Edge.
What's frustrating is that Microsoft wins by default because most users will never alter the defaults or even understand they have that choice.
All this nonsense does is upset power users. Power users will be annoyed but not stopped by this stuff, and by annoying them you've created a negative atmosphere around your products that they will share with less technical users.
Same thing as not allowing an "opt out" over analytics. I get that the analytics are useful, but if only 0.1% of your users are willing to opt out, is the negativity/fight really worth influential users spending years shit-talking you?
Microsoft makes some really boneheaded decisions to be honest. Apple is way better at the subtle sleight of hand monopolistic stuff, Microsoft is like a bull in a china shop.
I’ve always said that you need to look after power users’ interests, because even though they’re a small percentage of your user base they’re the ones who influence everyone else. A single power user will likely influence their immediate family, their classmates, work colleagues, friends, relations.. easily a broad spread of people.
Eventually MS figured out it actually those power users because they were developers. So they made visual studio code to lock them down like it's 1995.
Not sure about that. I find chrome way too annoying. To see history new tab needs to be opened, download bar below with no way to see all without new tab. Edge fixed these issues with toolbar buttons, some new flag options, web capture, read aloud, startup boost etc are quite helpful.
Block ntp.msn.com & assets.msn.com in hosts file to block start page completely if anyone don't like it, which I'm not sure if can be done with chrome without blocking google. This makes my experience better than chrome.
Readit News
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=netscap...
I would encourage anyone who doesn't use Windows 10 on a regular basis to take a look at what the 'defaults' are that Microsoft steers people towards on a brand new Win10 Home installation. Including the creation of a Microsoft account, bing, edge, all the telemetry turned on, etc. Just... Yuck.
When she goes to do a google search, google's page keeps pushing chrome in her face. While she's trying to search for listings of gigs needing translation from Mandarin, Japanese, or Cantonese into English, the page she's on tells her she needs to click here and install chrome. She doesn't know what a browser or a Chrome are, so she thinks it's something she needs to do for the work search. Bam - she's now using Chrome. And he doesn't even notice the browser changed. Nor does she care. She never meant to install it or switch to it. Google is a bad player, and windows will check and once in a while ask if she wants to switch it back. Good. Me, a firefox user - I have literally zero issue clicking "no, leave my browser alone" twice a year.
She uses some office apps for spreadsheet type work, and msword. She uses some windows functions like copying files, and backing up her phone.
Telemetry lets microsoft know what she's doing, where she's getting confused or going into a loop pattern to do something, and when she tries something and gives up after it not making sense. They use that telemetry to improve their programs for people like her. Me - I turned that off. It's as easy as downloading winaero and clicking "disable telemetry" and "disable ads."
This is not illegal because it's literally what 90% of Windows users want. People who don't want that are technically apt, and it takes about 2 minutes for us to turn that off. It's just a default for 90% of the users - a correct one.
I remember a couple years ago when I bought a new laptop (with Windows 10 on it). I just wanted to get into Windows far enough so I could download a Debian installer and write it to a USB stick, and I was appalled at Windows' first-run setup experience, and the personal information it wanted me to give them, as well as the sheer volume of telemetry, ads, and other spyware I had to explicitly opt out of. And even then, MS was still pushing Edge and Cortana in my face all over the place.
My last serious use of Windows was Windows 2000, and man, things have gone super downhill since then.
I'm bummed that I was right to continue to not trust MS, but... well, there we have it.
Which is strange, because Nadella's Microsoft is no better than Gates' or Ballmer's.
They never stopped, one big reason why Firefox restricts what plugins users can install was Windows installing plugins that could not be removed or disabled.
mostly unavoidable bing integration, mostly unavoidable edge integration, unavoidable teams integration, bing rewards in the start menu
I'd expect lawsuits to follow in the coming months and years if they don't take some steps back
the marketshare they retain in the desktop space still places them in the classical monopoly position ( > 75%)
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They can't increase revenue any more without "monetizing" the OS and users at this point.
It just doesnt take a trillion dollar company to maintain a decent OS and office suite. It never did.
I'm quite certain that all those non-standard URLs are all for internal links to OS-related information hosted on the web. If they instead just popped a custom app that hosted an Edge webview nobody would rip their shirts. Doing that would be ridiculous given that Edge is just there and has been tested and vetted by QA.
Don't forget that these things need to work on all versions of the OS and in all locales. You're asking MS to trust that any 3rd party app will give proper user experience for any locale when presenting such links.
It's not as-if MS was hijacking normal URLs. But ripping shirts is soooo much fun.
Ultimately though regardless of who is doing it, it is user hostile and needs to stop. Apple restricting browser engines on iOS doesn't somehow make Microsoft's steering and suppression of other browsers on Windows acceptable.
The US needs much better consumer protections.
None of this "you can install a browser, but we're going to lie cheat and steal to stop you" dark patterns nonsense. As a user, Apple just tells you No, and you get to decide if you want to live with that or not.
As a user, Apple allows you to change your default browser in both iOS and macOS quite easily.
As a developer you can build a browser on top of whatever rendering engine you want, as long as you want to use the built-in WebKit.
Crucially, they are plenty clear about what is, or isn't allowed (well, mostly — plenty of app review horror stories around here), and all of that happens in the interaction with developers. The user experience is always pretty decent, and you don't have to deal with this whole "do this in 10 locations" nonsense.
No, I haven't. Sounds like an improvement. Regular Windows 10 is trying way too hard, and I think somewhere lots it's compass. The P in PC stands for something really important.
Short-term, maybe not. Long-term...well, there's a reason everyone wants a Macbook anymore.
Yes! THANK YOU! OH MY GOD THANK YOU BRAVE!! FINALLY!
Edge will always lag Chrome for security matters and MSFT will just be yet another surveillance layer within it.
Just use Firefox folks. It's fast, secure-ish and leaves you only one threat actor to keep track of instead of two.
Firefox is great yes, viva la resistance. Unfortunately I'm seeing more sites with quirks on Firefox so I tend to use both Firefox and Edge.
What makes you think so?
e.g
https://microsoftedge.github.io/edgevr/posts/Super-Duper-Sec...
All this nonsense does is upset power users. Power users will be annoyed but not stopped by this stuff, and by annoying them you've created a negative atmosphere around your products that they will share with less technical users.
Same thing as not allowing an "opt out" over analytics. I get that the analytics are useful, but if only 0.1% of your users are willing to opt out, is the negativity/fight really worth influential users spending years shit-talking you?
Microsoft makes some really boneheaded decisions to be honest. Apple is way better at the subtle sleight of hand monopolistic stuff, Microsoft is like a bull in a china shop.
I’ve always said that you need to look after power users’ interests, because even though they’re a small percentage of your user base they’re the ones who influence everyone else. A single power user will likely influence their immediate family, their classmates, work colleagues, friends, relations.. easily a broad spread of people.
Neglect power users at your peril.
Not sure about that. I find chrome way too annoying. To see history new tab needs to be opened, download bar below with no way to see all without new tab. Edge fixed these issues with toolbar buttons, some new flag options, web capture, read aloud, startup boost etc are quite helpful.
Block ntp.msn.com & assets.msn.com in hosts file to block start page completely if anyone don't like it, which I'm not sure if can be done with chrome without blocking google. This makes my experience better than chrome.