All: please email hn@ycombinator.com if you see abuse like this. Protecting the quality of the site is our #1 priority and we can't address problems we don't know about! Fortunately I randomly ran across this post and have done the needful.
Thank you for the note! I'm not a regular user here and don't know how the moderation/administration of posts works here, so the email is greatly appreciated.
If i could take care of my retirement, medical care, my kid's future, etc.... i'd work a very different job if i could. I'd probably work more than i do now. I'd love to run a simple restaurant like a BBQ restaurant or something like that. And i'd never sit at a desk ever again as part of my daily tasks.
And i'd fuck-off on HackerNews and Reddit a lot less.
I just got a job where I make more than double my last role. It's world-changing types of money and benefits. But it's still a tech job and i'm not even being done training and my "revitalized energy" i got from leaving my last job only lasted like 3 weeks. The reality is, it's still a boring tech job with all the shit i knew I would hate about working at such a larger org. And I'm just burned out on tech. But it's the only thing i know how to do and actually make a living.
You sound like the same person that I am. I could almost print your comment out and put it on my fridge.
The only difference is you're almost certainly a better developer than me, I'm scared out of my mind to switch jobs because I despise being put on the spot during interviews. I hate it, and in my real work I'm searching online all the time and that looks bad. I don't have a child either but part of me wants to end my lineage just because it increases my own slavery.
I have no better way of making money. And to think I used to want to do this. Sometimes at night when thinking about the next day and my constantly-angry coworkers, I spontaneously envision shooting myself or hanging myself. I'd never do that, because I'm not giving the world that satisfaction, but it sums up how I feel. I'd bet there's a lot here on the same page. I think a large part of this situation for a born and raised US citizen is the outsourcing. Not only is the pay suppressed, but the treatment isn't nearly as good as it would be if companies weren't allowed to outsource costs through visas and remote hires.
These companies didn't care about keeping jobs in the US, so we shouldn't care about them either, and unionize with our international colleagues. Then the treatment and respect would go through the roof, and having the dignity of putting red tape in their way for once would probably increase worker satisfaction. I'd certainly get a good chuckle watching them being forced to pay my Indian colleagues the same as I make, and I'd be happy to do that to any employer that embraces outsourcing.
This is actually a great point. I would guess that once the pressure is off, you can work more creatively and elaborately, taking the time to understand what is puzzling for you or above your level. Which in turn makes you more eager to work, and much more effective at it.
That's my goal. Get to 500k savings and then decompress for a bit and really figure out something to work on that seems worthwhile that i want to build my future identity around.
Because being somewhat of a workaholic or craving power / money / achievement is how they got to be wealthy in the first place. This is roughly akin to asking "why don't strong and fit people stop going to the gym?"
But unlike going to the gym, acquiring a certain level of wealth gives you the means to continue to accumulate wealth. At the point that you're worth $10MM, you could live an upper middle class existence indefinitely with even a fairly pedestrian set of investments.
Sure, you could, but the point is that they have a worldview which prioritizes work and achievement which is why they keep pushing. The work / achievement / resource obtainment is the goal itself, not quality of life as others would define it.
If people stayed fit after getting in shape one time I think most would stop, your metaphor only works if we made some kind of capital gains scenario for fitness.
No, I really don't think they would. The gym is a lot of people's "third place[0]". Not to mention that exercise in particular releases happy chemicals independent of whether or not it is making/keeping you fit.
I think you're missing the point though. These are people who aren't optimizing for quality of life as most people define it (i.e. work as little as possible and reap maximal rewards and time with people you care about). Work / achievement / solving problems / obtaining resources becomes the goal itself. It is never enough because you can always have more / there is always something else to do / there is always another problem to solve / there is always another company to start etc.
Its the same thing for people who are serious about the gym. You can deadlift 600 lbs? Cool, now its time to try to get to 650. If you hit 650 it is time to plan for 700.
> "why don't strong and fit people stop going to the gym?"
You know, in the beforetimes, I went to the gym and asked myself that question a lot. (Just usually more in the context of grumbling "why didn't this incredibly buff dude unload all these plates from this machine")
I find that rich people, like the millionaires and billionaires, are driven people and driven not necessarily only by money. Extreme financial success is but a side effect of whatever is driving them whether it be building a huge company or a revolutionizing and industry.
And if getting rich is not the end game whether entirely or partially then the work is never done. They are still on a mission and there are more challenges and more worlds to conquer.
We had a talk once from a man who had sold his company at around 23 years old for several million, a lot to a young man. He said he thought he would live the dream, travel the world, go and do whatever he wanted, waking up at 10am every day and having a cooked breakfast!
Then he realised how boring and lonely it was. His friends were all at work while he was "free" and most people don't want to sit by themself at a bar in Tahiti, even if you can afford the drinks!
He quickly went back to working/advising companies and found it much more engaging.
I know this statement is controversial but honestly: for some people, work gives life meaning. Whether for a salary, or stock or for free.
But it should be revised to meaningful work. Not schlepping a mop at 7-11 to eke out next month's rent.
Heck, I don't have that level of success, am very middle class in fact, but even I think it's so boring to just sit in a beach sipping drinks for the rest of my life.
It means more to me when it's a nice well earned break from the work but for that to be the rest of my life .... I couldn't. I'd always find something else to work on as long as I was able bodied and of sound mind.
Sounds to me like he left a lot of options on the table. There's a lot more out there than working in corporate or sitting alone at a bar in Tahiti. I'd love to be able to get creative and indulge hobbies as full-time work; it'd be nice to brew beer, or write a book, or take up woodworking, without having to worry about financing or making a profit from any of those activities.
Giong to make some bold guesses here: This is a single man without children.
The idea of a single guy in his mid-20s being unable to find meaning in his life seems pretty normal. I'm not saying getting married or having kids mean you're winning at life or are the only ways to have meaning, but as a married person in his 30s, I'll gladly take a few million and retirement to go on adventures with my wife for the rest of my life when I'm not just enjoying my hobbies or visiting loved ones.
TL;dr- Different strokes. I would have gleefully retired at 18 given the chance.
Getting shit done with the team feels great, agreed. I guess our hunter-gatherer group mentality is holding us back from simply enjoying fruits of labor.
Rich, as in, a busy lawyer with lots of customers on his shoulders, who also tries to maintain a respectable social status by having the right house, connections and the right car. For him, stopping work means cutting their income stream and social connections and still having to support this expensive lifestyle.
There's also rich with passive income from investments and they really have the option for a leisurely escape.
Having billions of dollars and continuing to work doesn't necessarily mean that you're not driven by money. It can mean that the drive for more money is insatiable.
But I agree other factors are involved; if there are rivals left to be crushed, or any capacity for increased public attention remaining, many rich people will keep grinding.
Many years ago, I knew / worked for one of the co-founders of Waste Management. He retired (at retirement age), moved to our neck of the woods, and bought & expanded several working properties (farm, hotel, golf course, etc).
His wife was an absolute gem, so I asked her one day - why is he still working at his age. He's surely got enough to retire on. She explained that they moved there to retire, but he was "like a caged lion" and just couldn't stop. So he took up several ventures almost as hobbies. My job was his hobby.
tl;dr; I agree. I strongly suspect that for this type, getting rich is a side-effect, not an end goal. It's unimaginable for me - with that money I'd be on a 50ft sailboat doing endless laps of the planet with no real goal or ambition. It's just who they are.
Not too different from my grandfather: As a farmer, he gave everything to his first son and retired at 70. And worked well into his 80ies…
Clearly it wasn’t for money. I would say our sense of purpose was built into us for years. His wife built the stone stairs leading to the main door, 3 months before dying. Brave people from ancient times.
We have a real societal disconnect and it's clear that we don't communicate enough with our elder generations.
While some people are content to retire and stay home in bed, not having something meaningful to do every day makes quite a lot of people absolutely miserable.
But that's not the option open to the uber-rich. Look at Tom from MySpace. He took a ton of money and is on a permanent vacation. He certainly seems to have a more enjoyable life than Zuckerberg. Although I guess he cannot afford the biggest yachts in the world.
Not everyone is a Myspace Tom and more enjoyable is your take on Zuck's situation. I bet Zuckerberg either likes creating new things more, accumulating power, or just keeping his baby moving. I'm sure he enjoys what he's doing.
Then you have pure engineers like Torvolds or Carmack that just like being in the trenches.
> He certainly seems to have a more enjoyable life than Zuckerberg.
heh, Tom's life (according to https://www.hellomagazine.com/travel/2020111645793/tom-myspa...) would have myself commit seppuku in three weeks. I can barely stand five days of "do nothing productive" vacations. Would definitely choose "testify in front of congress" instead.
He seems to? How do you judge that? I feel like most people who make statements like that really mean "if I were given the choice between the two lives, I would choose Tom's over Zuckerberg's." That doesn't tell you anything at all about who's enjoying their life more, since you're neither Tom nor Zuckerberg, and their goals/priorities/values are probably very different from yours.
I guess it depends on your interests outside of work and if you have any. Some people work so hard, they have nothing outside of work that they fit-in with. Its a bit like people who retire and spend their retirement years watching TV.
Imagine, instead, you enjoyed sports, blogging, travelling, exploring etc. you could easily do that if you were super rich and not bother with work again.
> He certainly seems to have a more enjoyable life than Zuckerberg.
There is no universal metric for enjoying life. Some people just like playing the game. My 99 year old grandpa was still managing his farm’s yields before he died even though he had no need to because why not. He actually bought it after he “retired”.
I've noticed how quickly I become depressed when I have nothing to do. It's sort of like the properties of a gas- my lethargy expands to fill the volume of space I have. When I was on a sabbatical between jobs instead of going to museums and art shows and exploring new hikes and doing other things I'd think I would enjoy I laid around and binge-watched The Wire and the West Wing.
When I'm busy I actively block out time to do those activities and plan for them and look forward to them. It's a weird phenomena but I'd guess if I was wealthy enough not to have to work (which I'm not!) I would need to keep working anyways to keep some structure in my life and avoid depression.
Well they sort of do, in that they usually stop working for other people and stop working on anything they don't enjoy. If you're rich enough that you can design your own "job" and delegate anything you don't want to do, it's not really the same concept that most people associate with "work".
I think that’s an easy approach for the purposes of conversation. Work includes both innovation and toil. What is stopping you from hiring someone to take care of your toil?
I remember when I visited the CEO's office at my first "real" job. I was sitting with my boss waiting for the CEO to show up to his massive (quiet) office with comfortable furnature, secretary who was busy organizing his personal and professional life (she asked us about gifts for his grand kids since we "knew computers"), drinks and food at the ready nearby...
I said something like "Man I would find work pretty dang nice if I was up here".
My boss said something like "Yeah but these guys work all the time."
I couldn't help but think... yeah it would still be pretty easy to work all the time in this environment.
That's not to say they're not stressed or etc, but if you have the option to work comfortably ... I can see why you might continue to work if your conditions are good.
Meanwhile I go back to my cube with constant noise, folks looking over my shoulder, planning business my trip in regular people class (not 1st) and so on.
These folks aren't "just working" they didn't take up a job at McDonald's... they choose to work in a different world too I suspect.
I don't know how large the company was, but at a big company, the CEO is probably not actually in that nice office all that much. They're on planes, in airports, scheduled in meetings from breakfast through dinner, on late night calls, etc.
I'm not saying they have a "bad" like and they're well-paid for it but it's not particularly relaxing or flexible.
We discussed the pros and cons of laptops vs desktops and etc (this was when laptops were still a big tradeoff vs a desktop in power and etc). IIRC we recommended a nice desktop for the kids that could be upgraded / changed they were inclined but also plenty useful if they chose not to. Also told him to get a nicer monitor than they were thinking.
"Many people with a large amount of money, perhaps a million or two, consider themselves middle class when clearly they could even retire and live off their passive income"
If you have a million dollars, stop working, invest the money, you can safely draw about 35K per year for a long time. This is based on long term historic returns of the stock market.
There are different definitions of middle class in the US. The first one I found, Pew 2019, said the range was 46k - 137K.
So living off the passive income of a million dollars puts you well below middle class.
A quick search shows average returns across the market sit around 8-11%. If we say 5% to be conservative, 1M returns $50'000 each year. That's not bad. That's a house in a quiet neighborhood with no worries about food, or debt. You're not living without a budget, but you could live without working.
In the last ten years or so, returns have been extremely high. If you look back at all the data available, you get a number closer to 3.5% or maybe at the most 4%.
Readit News
Edit: and now this one too, pew pew! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28540643
Edit 2: to clarify, this article was stolen from here: https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/life-culture/why-dont-rich-...
And i'd fuck-off on HackerNews and Reddit a lot less.
I just got a job where I make more than double my last role. It's world-changing types of money and benefits. But it's still a tech job and i'm not even being done training and my "revitalized energy" i got from leaving my last job only lasted like 3 weeks. The reality is, it's still a boring tech job with all the shit i knew I would hate about working at such a larger org. And I'm just burned out on tech. But it's the only thing i know how to do and actually make a living.
The only difference is you're almost certainly a better developer than me, I'm scared out of my mind to switch jobs because I despise being put on the spot during interviews. I hate it, and in my real work I'm searching online all the time and that looks bad. I don't have a child either but part of me wants to end my lineage just because it increases my own slavery.
I have no better way of making money. And to think I used to want to do this. Sometimes at night when thinking about the next day and my constantly-angry coworkers, I spontaneously envision shooting myself or hanging myself. I'd never do that, because I'm not giving the world that satisfaction, but it sums up how I feel. I'd bet there's a lot here on the same page. I think a large part of this situation for a born and raised US citizen is the outsourcing. Not only is the pay suppressed, but the treatment isn't nearly as good as it would be if companies weren't allowed to outsource costs through visas and remote hires.
These companies didn't care about keeping jobs in the US, so we shouldn't care about them either, and unionize with our international colleagues. Then the treatment and respect would go through the roof, and having the dignity of putting red tape in their way for once would probably increase worker satisfaction. I'd certainly get a good chuckle watching them being forced to pay my Indian colleagues the same as I make, and I'd be happy to do that to any employer that embraces outsourcing.
I think it would be worse to inflate your lifestyle with all the nice things and still have to work at that new big tech place for decades more
If everyone does what they want - who does the jobs no one wants?
0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
Its the same thing for people who are serious about the gym. You can deadlift 600 lbs? Cool, now its time to try to get to 650. If you hit 650 it is time to plan for 700.
I enjoy the act of exercising and the immediate effects following excercise. Most people that are very into fitness or exercise enjoy it as well.
You know, in the beforetimes, I went to the gym and asked myself that question a lot. (Just usually more in the context of grumbling "why didn't this incredibly buff dude unload all these plates from this machine")
Deleted Comment
Deleted Comment
And if getting rich is not the end game whether entirely or partially then the work is never done. They are still on a mission and there are more challenges and more worlds to conquer.
Then he realised how boring and lonely it was. His friends were all at work while he was "free" and most people don't want to sit by themself at a bar in Tahiti, even if you can afford the drinks!
He quickly went back to working/advising companies and found it much more engaging.
But it should be revised to meaningful work. Not schlepping a mop at 7-11 to eke out next month's rent.
Heck, I don't have that level of success, am very middle class in fact, but even I think it's so boring to just sit in a beach sipping drinks for the rest of my life.
It means more to me when it's a nice well earned break from the work but for that to be the rest of my life .... I couldn't. I'd always find something else to work on as long as I was able bodied and of sound mind.
The idea of a single guy in his mid-20s being unable to find meaning in his life seems pretty normal. I'm not saying getting married or having kids mean you're winning at life or are the only ways to have meaning, but as a married person in his 30s, I'll gladly take a few million and retirement to go on adventures with my wife for the rest of my life when I'm not just enjoying my hobbies or visiting loved ones.
TL;dr- Different strokes. I would have gleefully retired at 18 given the chance.
Rich, as in, a busy lawyer with lots of customers on his shoulders, who also tries to maintain a respectable social status by having the right house, connections and the right car. For him, stopping work means cutting their income stream and social connections and still having to support this expensive lifestyle.
There's also rich with passive income from investments and they really have the option for a leisurely escape.
But I agree other factors are involved; if there are rivals left to be crushed, or any capacity for increased public attention remaining, many rich people will keep grinding.
His wife was an absolute gem, so I asked her one day - why is he still working at his age. He's surely got enough to retire on. She explained that they moved there to retire, but he was "like a caged lion" and just couldn't stop. So he took up several ventures almost as hobbies. My job was his hobby.
tl;dr; I agree. I strongly suspect that for this type, getting rich is a side-effect, not an end goal. It's unimaginable for me - with that money I'd be on a 50ft sailboat doing endless laps of the planet with no real goal or ambition. It's just who they are.
Clearly it wasn’t for money. I would say our sense of purpose was built into us for years. His wife built the stone stairs leading to the main door, 3 months before dying. Brave people from ancient times.
While some people are content to retire and stay home in bed, not having something meaningful to do every day makes quite a lot of people absolutely miserable.
Then you have pure engineers like Torvolds or Carmack that just like being in the trenches.
heh, Tom's life (according to https://www.hellomagazine.com/travel/2020111645793/tom-myspa...) would have myself commit seppuku in three weeks. I can barely stand five days of "do nothing productive" vacations. Would definitely choose "testify in front of congress" instead.
Imagine, instead, you enjoyed sports, blogging, travelling, exploring etc. you could easily do that if you were super rich and not bother with work again.
There is no universal metric for enjoying life. Some people just like playing the game. My 99 year old grandpa was still managing his farm’s yields before he died even though he had no need to because why not. He actually bought it after he “retired”.
When I'm busy I actively block out time to do those activities and plan for them and look forward to them. It's a weird phenomena but I'd guess if I was wealthy enough not to have to work (which I'm not!) I would need to keep working anyways to keep some structure in my life and avoid depression.
I said something like "Man I would find work pretty dang nice if I was up here".
My boss said something like "Yeah but these guys work all the time."
I couldn't help but think... yeah it would still be pretty easy to work all the time in this environment.
That's not to say they're not stressed or etc, but if you have the option to work comfortably ... I can see why you might continue to work if your conditions are good.
Meanwhile I go back to my cube with constant noise, folks looking over my shoulder, planning business my trip in regular people class (not 1st) and so on.
These folks aren't "just working" they didn't take up a job at McDonald's... they choose to work in a different world too I suspect.
I'm not saying they have a "bad" like and they're well-paid for it but it's not particularly relaxing or flexible.
We discussed the pros and cons of laptops vs desktops and etc (this was when laptops were still a big tradeoff vs a desktop in power and etc). IIRC we recommended a nice desktop for the kids that could be upgraded / changed they were inclined but also plenty useful if they chose not to. Also told him to get a nicer monitor than they were thinking.
If you have a million dollars, stop working, invest the money, you can safely draw about 35K per year for a long time. This is based on long term historic returns of the stock market.
There are different definitions of middle class in the US. The first one I found, Pew 2019, said the range was 46k - 137K.
So living off the passive income of a million dollars puts you well below middle class.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_study