I'd urge anyone who finds this behaviour unacceptable to contact the UK's CMA - the regulator responsible for competition.
They have an ongoing investigation into Google and Apple's practices with regards to app stores (and mobile platforms in general) [1], and have been looking for evidence on the topic of competition in app stores, and dominance.
While the UK is just one country, the CMA has a wide mandate to act on competition matters and has announced their preliminary findings on the merger of Facebook and Giphy, which (in short) recommend a forced sale of Giphy to prevent potential future anticompetitive moves, such as through terms of service. They have a particular current interest in digital markets, and are forming a new unit specifically to deal with tech antitrust issues (the digital markets unit)
While the CMA public consultation on the Apple/Google mobile platforms work has closed, their investigation team can be contacted via the email inbox listed at [1]. When engaging with regulators like this (for anyone not familiar), it is helpful if you explain why a particular move has harmed you, and can give examples or any available evidence about it, and explain the impact that it has had on you, and the impact on the wider ecosystem as a result.
I'm sure other regulators are looking into this, but for those who are unhappy about this situation, I'd urge you to contact a regulator. If your own national regulator isn't looking into it, there's no reason not to contact the UK one (or indeed any other), and explain your concerns and help them with finding evidence - often for policy and enforcement teams, getting evidence together is the hard part of their job, and I can say from experience they do read their emails.
Another example of arbitrary playstore rules killing a FOSS app - playstore version of termux is stuck on a 2-year-old release (0.101) and can't run on Android 10 at all. If you install from F-Droid - latest version is available (0.117) and works on Android 10, too.
Rather the general app sandbox has had tightened security, which affects api compatibility, thus play rejects it to make sure it’s future proofed by author. In the meantime, during phase-out, sideloading works so old versions of app suddenly don’t stop working, but eventually that call will stop working.
Whether apps should be allowed to download and execute code out of the apk bundle itself is of course another political topic.
Oh yikes, Google is going down the Apple path of forbidding downloaded code? That's awful. How long until third party web browsers are banned on Android as well?
Googler opinions are my own. I know nothing about the space.
At least skimming the termux issue here is that it was done for SELinux policy changes in trying to improve security of application running on Android. Is that correct? Then the app store is trying to enforce this newer policy via forced API upgrades.
As you said, you can at least still side load if you would like?
Yes, but if only the system doesn't pop up the Play Protect button every few install, and words that discourage users instead of educating users about sideloading apps. Then I'll consider sideloading on par with installing from the Play store.
How about just adding a permission to the already present permission system? Oh, that's right. Google and Apple don't trust their users and want full control over everyone's devices.
What is the difference between Aurora Store and Google's Play store?
Unlike Google's Play Store, Aurora Store doesn't track your downloads or the apps you use. We respect your privacy. Aurora Store is also unaffected by Google marking your device as uncertified or lacking of necessary Google apps. Play Protect is not present, as this is a Play Store only feature.
Do I need Google Play Services to use Aurora Store?
No. Aurora Store was built to access the Google Play store without any kind of Google services. It doesn't matter if you use it with or without Google Play Services/MicroG.
Is it safe to use Aurora store?
Aurora Store is fully open-source and verified by F-Droid. If you're asking about the safety of the apps in the store, those are the exact same ones the Play Store would load and display. A lot of dangerous stuff seems to sneak past Google though, so as a rule of thumb, don't download anything which you're unsure about.
This may also be relevant to those wishing to switch. In the part of the FAQ concerning using your own account to login.
>However, you may want to be careful as Google retains full rights to block any account under their Google Play Terms of Service §4 (opens new window), because using Aurora Store clearly violates their terms of services. Being banned means that the very Google account you used to sign in with will be blocked forever. It might be worth using a dummy account for that reason.
I don't know how often using aurora store has actually resulted in a ban though.
>attempt to, or assist, authorize or encourage others to circumvent, disable or defeat any of the security features or components that protect, obfuscate or otherwise restrict access to any Content or Google Play.
Am I reading this correctly in that, this seems to me like just telling people about something like Aurora is against the terms of services and can get you banned whether you use it or not?
As in, even the gp comment technically breaks that rule just by posting that Aurora FAQ?
How does this help? The Aurora Store is just an alternative Play Store client. If Google removes an app from the Play Store, it'll be gone from this too.
Aside from protection against profiling, it sends the message that users are aware of alternatives. Enough people doing that should in the long run discourage Google from bullying publishers that would have other means for distributing their software.
I agree that it's not easy, and needs a lot of people jumping to alternative app stores before something could change, but I don't see other ways since it's clear that Google has no intention to listen to their users.
Interesting that that google search only gave me spam for 1.5 pages. Wikipedia being at the bottom of the second page. (I use F-Droid, I was just curious. Usually a DuckDuckGo user. Search done from Germany)
I really hope Epic wins the lawsuit against Apple and that the laws being announced in the US Senate/House get passed. I also hope the EU start pushing against this kind of stuff more.
My opinion is that Google, and Apple are Bundling/Tying at multiple levels, and using monopoly power in a way that stifles the market, and impedes innovation.
My Japanese work phone came bundled with "app pass" an app store with a monthly 350yen subscription cost. I didnt even know it existed till I saw some brief toast overlay about it updating successfully.
https://kuronekoblog.com/6169/
It seems like there are extremes, carriers were abusing their positions before Apple came up with iPhone and app store and wrangled power away from carriers. Now they have lived long enough to become the villain… it might be time to reset matrix again and work towards a better outcome.
There are three major national carriers (a fourth launching soon), and an absolute glut of smaller MVNOs which offer devices on their own terms. Most of both the national carriers and the MVNOs will also allow you to bring your own device, which as long as isn't running Android, is probably not encumbered by malicious code.
Even if the horrors you suggest are true, consumers would have options to get around them, whilst right now, a single monopoly, Google, controls the entire playing field, and actively attacks anyone who tries to offer a path around (Epic, for instance).
The "ISP bogeyman" issue constantly feels hollow in tech circles considering there's a ton of actual competition in the provider space, and a complete and unassailable monopoly in the tech platform space.
Which is why Apple’s volunteered to run on-device surveillance programs. Between their lobbying power and the holy grail of utter surveillance, the governments will never stand for the basic rights of the people.
Large organizations can do both good and terrible things.
Google still serves are huge portion of search traffic which pretty clearly is a good thing. Youtube has an incredible wealth of tutorials & educational content. Deepmind is pushing the boundaries of what is possible. Various OSS projects continue to be pushed out. Gmail has been an amazing free resource for millions etc.
Yeah, google does awful shit every day but it's worth remembering that Maps, Search and YouTube are world-changing resources.
All three have their problems (especially that third one) but they have done an incredible amount of Good in the world and they continue to do so every day.
that's great. Whom has been impacted by this and how, in more detail? I would say Google Maps is far more impactful and good than any protein folding....
> Google definitely lived long enough to become a villain.
I hate to break this to you but google was born a villain. Nobody innately good has to remind themselves "Don't be evil". Imagine walking down the street and meeting a stranger constantly repeating "Don't be evil" to himself?
Being able to group people into "good" and "bad" ones is convenient. It means you only need to find out once if someone is a "good" or "bad" person and once you have decided that someone is "bad" you can justify any of your own behavior towards them. But just because it is convenient does not make it true. People are people. Choices are bad or good or more likley somewhere in between. Nobody is innately good or bad - while some poeple my be wired to be more selfish than others, the choices they make throughout their lifes are as much dictated by the circumstances they are made in and by the experiences made before them as they are by the neurological makeup of the person.
I was glad they walked back on Dragonfly and (effectively) killed AMP.
In the process they did lose me as a user of their free products though. And they lost me as a developer, I no longer opt for building with their tools, including Chrome, Android, Angular, GCloud, etc.
As they are, app stores are crap. They are a huge control mechanism to stiff competition.
For those of you who are old enough: Imagine if in 2000, Microsoft released "Windows Me" with something similar (for PC) to what Apple or Google are doing in the current dominant computing device form factor (Mobile). It just would not have been tolerated. Adobe, Netscape, Autodesk, Corel and others having to pay Microsoft a 15% cut for their software? Netscape? Opera? Apple having to pay 15% of the revenue from Apple Itunes? That's crazy...
I'm old enough to remember that in 2001, Microsoft got in trouble just for shipping Windows with IE preinstalled. Which seems like an awfully quaint concern by 2021 standards.
A Microsoft operating system was on 97% of all computing devices in the year 2000, even higher if you narrow the definition to something like "home computer".
Compare the situation to ISPs. There's Comcast, Cox, Charter, etc., but a given location is often only served by one of them, so they don't actually compete with each other. Similarly, nobody has a choice between those two app stores. iOS users can't use the Google Play Store, and Android users can't use the Apple App Store.
They have a monopoly in their markets, which is "on their OS". The exact definition of their markets, in particular if it's "on their OS" or "on phones in general", is one of the major points of contention in the case
Google is cracking down on their Play Store and enforcing similar rules to the ones Apple enforces on their App Store.
As of September 2021, all apps distributed on the Play Store must use Google's billing method[1]. Apps listed on the Play Store cannot link to alternative payment or donation methods in the listing's description or in the app itself[1]. Google will take a 15% to 30% cut off all sales. These rules are similar to the rules on the App Store.
Google and Apple hold a duopoly in the mobile operating systems market and the mobile app distribution market. The move to enforce the adoption of Google's billing system seems like the mobile app distribution cartel is engaging in price fixing[2].
It also seems like Google and Apple have leveraged their duopolies in the mobile OS and app distribution markets to dominate the mobile app payments market, now, too.
I have said it many times already: stop uploading your apps to the Play Store.
It's a shitty product developed by a shitty company.
It takes a mandatory 30% share of all of your payments for offering you a shitty service with no human support.
It has opaque and inconsistent removal practices completely managed by algorithms, and violating any of the many unwritten rules can result in the output of your hard work disappearing overnight, and what's worse is that often there's no human to validate these decisions and the reasons for removal aren't
F-Droid is the way to go if you build FOSS apps. Real humans are behind he keyboard to validate your app and answer your questions, the store sits completely outside of the money cycle, your source code is protected by the right licenses, and apps don't get banned just for linking a URL to their website.
Readit News
They have an ongoing investigation into Google and Apple's practices with regards to app stores (and mobile platforms in general) [1], and have been looking for evidence on the topic of competition in app stores, and dominance.
While the UK is just one country, the CMA has a wide mandate to act on competition matters and has announced their preliminary findings on the merger of Facebook and Giphy, which (in short) recommend a forced sale of Giphy to prevent potential future anticompetitive moves, such as through terms of service. They have a particular current interest in digital markets, and are forming a new unit specifically to deal with tech antitrust issues (the digital markets unit)
While the CMA public consultation on the Apple/Google mobile platforms work has closed, their investigation team can be contacted via the email inbox listed at [1]. When engaging with regulators like this (for anyone not familiar), it is helpful if you explain why a particular move has harmed you, and can give examples or any available evidence about it, and explain the impact that it has had on you, and the impact on the wider ecosystem as a result.
I'm sure other regulators are looking into this, but for those who are unhappy about this situation, I'd urge you to contact a regulator. If your own national regulator isn't looking into it, there's no reason not to contact the UK one (or indeed any other), and explain your concerns and help them with finding evidence - often for policy and enforcement teams, getting evidence together is the hard part of their job, and I can say from experience they do read their emails.
[1] https://www.gov.uk/cma-cases/mobile-ecosystems-market-study
[2] https://www.gov.uk/government/news/facebook-s-takeover-of-gi...
The FTC has the Bureau of Competition[3].
Each individual state has an Attorney General office that will hear these types of complaints, and some of them have explicit antitrust divisions[4].
[1] https://www.justice.gov/atr
[2] https://www.justice.gov/atr/report-violations
[3] https://www.ftc.gov/about-ftc/bureaus-offices/bureau-competi...
[4] https://www.naag.org/issues/antitrust/
https://github.com/termux/termux-app/issues/1072
https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/Termux_Google_Play
Rather the general app sandbox has had tightened security, which affects api compatibility, thus play rejects it to make sure it’s future proofed by author. In the meantime, during phase-out, sideloading works so old versions of app suddenly don’t stop working, but eventually that call will stop working.
Whether apps should be allowed to download and execute code out of the apk bundle itself is of course another political topic.
Deleted Comment
At least skimming the termux issue here is that it was done for SELinux policy changes in trying to improve security of application running on Android. Is that correct? Then the app store is trying to enforce this newer policy via forced API upgrades.
As you said, you can at least still side load if you would like?
I'm not saying there aren't issues. I'm just saying that you can install and run from gplay.
Deleted Comment
https://auroraoss.com/
https://gitlab.com/AuroraOSS
From the Aurora Store FAQ:
What is the difference between Aurora Store and Google's Play store?
Unlike Google's Play Store, Aurora Store doesn't track your downloads or the apps you use. We respect your privacy. Aurora Store is also unaffected by Google marking your device as uncertified or lacking of necessary Google apps. Play Protect is not present, as this is a Play Store only feature.
Do I need Google Play Services to use Aurora Store?
No. Aurora Store was built to access the Google Play store without any kind of Google services. It doesn't matter if you use it with or without Google Play Services/MicroG.
Is it safe to use Aurora store?
Aurora Store is fully open-source and verified by F-Droid. If you're asking about the safety of the apps in the store, those are the exact same ones the Play Store would load and display. A lot of dangerous stuff seems to sneak past Google though, so as a rule of thumb, don't download anything which you're unsure about.
>However, you may want to be careful as Google retains full rights to block any account under their Google Play Terms of Service §4 (opens new window), because using Aurora Store clearly violates their terms of services. Being banned means that the very Google account you used to sign in with will be blocked forever. It might be worth using a dummy account for that reason.
I don't know how often using aurora store has actually resulted in a ban though.
Here's the google play ToS:
https://play.google.com/intl/en-us_us/about/play-terms/index...
Am I reading this correctly in that, this seems to me like just telling people about something like Aurora is against the terms of services and can get you banned whether you use it or not?
As in, even the gp comment technically breaks that rule just by posting that Aurora FAQ?
That's fairly intense if so.
Google will always insist you meant <App> android and show you those results instead, which of course is the play store version if it exists.
“Snapchat hdroid” also suggests “Snapchat Android” though, so it doesn’t seem targeted against f-droid specifically
https://i.imgur.com/3R6JzvB.png
The search results even gave me the correct name of the app in f-droid that is named differently. (firefox > fennec)
https://i.imgur.com/2vWBEG4.png
Apple and Google have too much control.
My opinion is that Google, and Apple are Bundling/Tying at multiple levels, and using monopoly power in a way that stifles the market, and impedes innovation.
This is some good stuff on some of these issues https://www.justice.gov/atr/chapter-5-antitrust-issues-tying...
I will predict for you the future of that, based on the past.
The next people in line who control most devices are the carriers.
They will set up app stores that are required on their phones (since the laws will not prevent this).
Each will have exclusive apps that require their app store be installed (and will not be available on other phones).
Things will be a mishmash.
Nobody will be actually happy.
The carriers also have great lobbyists, and are really great at doing this kind of thing.
It will take a long time to undo it.
It does prevent this. All apps and app stores included with the device must be disableable is in the language of the bill.
I’ve heard people say that about true compromise…
It seems like there are extremes, carriers were abusing their positions before Apple came up with iPhone and app store and wrangled power away from carriers. Now they have lived long enough to become the villain… it might be time to reset matrix again and work towards a better outcome.
Even if the horrors you suggest are true, consumers would have options to get around them, whilst right now, a single monopoly, Google, controls the entire playing field, and actively attacks anyone who tries to offer a path around (Epic, for instance).
The "ISP bogeyman" issue constantly feels hollow in tech circles considering there's a ton of actual competition in the provider space, and a complete and unassailable monopoly in the tech platform space.
Dead Comment
"Why use another store, when Google and Apple are required by law to have all apps?"
They aren't going to force Google and Apple to have all apps?
That isn’t at all what is being proposed
House reps probably aren't setting their legislative agenda about monopolistic power based off of what the intelligence community would like the most.
When was the last time they did anything good?
Large organizations can do both good and terrible things.
Google still serves are huge portion of search traffic which pretty clearly is a good thing. Youtube has an incredible wealth of tutorials & educational content. Deepmind is pushing the boundaries of what is possible. Various OSS projects continue to be pushed out. Gmail has been an amazing free resource for millions etc.
They are also doing terrible things as well.
Hard disagree there, a single company dominating search is not a good thing.
All three have their problems (especially that third one) but they have done an incredible amount of Good in the world and they continue to do so every day.
Oh I dunno... how about that time they solved protein folding?
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03348-4
Deleted Comment
I hate to break this to you but google was born a villain. Nobody innately good has to remind themselves "Don't be evil". Imagine walking down the street and meeting a stranger constantly repeating "Don't be evil" to himself?
In the process they did lose me as a user of their free products though. And they lost me as a developer, I no longer opt for building with their tools, including Chrome, Android, Angular, GCloud, etc.
err, what? I still regularly get AMP links from news.google.com
https://www.wsj.com/articles/app-store-competition-targeted-...
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/11/tech/apple-google-app-sto...
https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/11/22620454/apple-google-app...
For those of you who are old enough: Imagine if in 2000, Microsoft released "Windows Me" with something similar (for PC) to what Apple or Google are doing in the current dominant computing device form factor (Mobile). It just would not have been tolerated. Adobe, Netscape, Autodesk, Corel and others having to pay Microsoft a 15% cut for their software? Netscape? Opera? Apple having to pay 15% of the revenue from Apple Itunes? That's crazy...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_C....
As of September 2021, all apps distributed on the Play Store must use Google's billing method[1]. Apps listed on the Play Store cannot link to alternative payment or donation methods in the listing's description or in the app itself[1]. Google will take a 15% to 30% cut off all sales. These rules are similar to the rules on the App Store.
Google and Apple hold a duopoly in the mobile operating systems market and the mobile app distribution market. The move to enforce the adoption of Google's billing system seems like the mobile app distribution cartel is engaging in price fixing[2].
It also seems like Google and Apple have leveraged their duopolies in the mobile OS and app distribution markets to dominate the mobile app payments market, now, too.
[1] https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing
Also the way of OruxMaps is possible: one version published in the store and another published elsewhere:
«only donate version available in google play, because the free version "has been removed because it violates the payments policy"»
It's a shitty product developed by a shitty company.
It takes a mandatory 30% share of all of your payments for offering you a shitty service with no human support.
It has opaque and inconsistent removal practices completely managed by algorithms, and violating any of the many unwritten rules can result in the output of your hard work disappearing overnight, and what's worse is that often there's no human to validate these decisions and the reasons for removal aren't
F-Droid is the way to go if you build FOSS apps. Real humans are behind he keyboard to validate your app and answer your questions, the store sits completely outside of the money cycle, your source code is protected by the right licenses, and apps don't get banned just for linking a URL to their website.