What I wish India would do is this: force Chinese phone companies to ship stock Android and full source code. They sell hundreds of millions of phones in India and will have to find middle ground, and the outcome will be good for everyone.
Google neither uses stock Android on Pixel phone nor release full source code of pixel phones, so why should only the Chinese be forced to do that?
Before anyone downvotes or questions if Pixel uses Stock Android, ask yourself why Pixels have Pixel exclusive features not available in AOSP or not used by Android 1 phones like Nokia
I would like to see India start replacing inexpensive phones made in China with inexpensive phones made in India. In all cases it's better if India develops their own industry further such that they rely on China less.
If they can make iPhones in India, they can certainly figure out how to build competitive, inexpensive phones to replace those made in China.
This has already happened. All of the cheap Chinese phone manufacturers build their Indian phones in India and this features prominently in their advertising.
I expect this to increase prices for chinese phones. It is well known that xiaomi operates on thin margin so they can push their IT services and recoup the cost.
The issue is not hardware or OS software, it's content control.
CCP has a unit within almost every Chinese company making sure they adhere to CCP policy it's impossible to avoid when data is on the other side of the fence.
is there some kind of signature you can use to ascertain that the code you have is what's actually on the device ?
Is it possible to do the same for the SIM (as I understand it, it is its own microsystem and intelligence companies have already _at least_ attempted to insert their code in there) ?
what about play services or its equivalent ? These are often closed source and have lots of system permissions (since they handle lots of capabilities, they need a broad access).
edit : for clarity, I don't think it is a bad idea, I just wonder how doable it is.
I think this might be related to the Tibetan origin special forces soldier of Indian Army being killed in some recent altercation with PRC on their northern border.[1]
I do think India is going on a slippery slope now. With Tiktok, one can even make a case of it being used to manipulate sentiments and being used for propoganda, but
that argument can hardly be made for a game like PubG. It also brings into question whether the ruling government can disrupt a business on its whim of the day.
Also, as far as I understand India is far more dependent economically on trade with China then China is on India. Do they really want to start a trade war with China?
The ruling government has destroyed the Indian economy with its arbitrary decisions. And sometimes the get the judiciary to chip in as well.
The first real disaster to the Indian economy was the billions in retroactive taxes that were applied to telecoms. And then the attempt made by the government to break through the corporate firewalls and extract that money from foreign parents. That hit FDI immediately.
That was followed by demonetization, extremely poor rollout of GST, a terribly executed lockdown and subsequent reopening, and now the arbitrary control over Chinese companies when China is probably the largest private investor in India right now. All these things are hurting India with little benefit to show for, other than jingoistic support for the ruling party.
India is yet another example of “<Country> First” parties coming in and taking actions which undermine the absolute fundamentals of what the country is and damaging it and its citizens in so many ways.
Make life terrible for your citizens and blame China while looting your citizens left right and center is apparently a winning strategy in multiple countries.
Retroactive taxes was from previous gov. After recently launched PLI scheme, India has record high FDI inflows[1]. FDI was flat in 18 and 19, started increasing last year after corporate tax cut and further after PLI scheme.
Of course, India still has long way to go regarding Ease of Doing Business, with byzantine land and permit laws, capital crunch for MSME etc.. Some states like UP, Gujarat are trying to get around byzantine laws by abolishing them for few years. And of course GDP will contract after complete lockdown for a quarter.
> and now the arbitrary control over Chinese companies when China is probably the largest private investor in India right now
I do not fully agree with some of the other points made, but this I completely disagree. There are many reasons the banning of Chinese money and influence in India is a long term strategic security issue.
For the immediate short-term, there are Chinese tanks, fighter planes, artillery and soldiers gathering across the border with India, with multiple incidents and provocations. India still has the debacle of 1962 Sino-Chinese war fresh in it's mind. Couple that with the recent aggressive posturing, land grabs and general disregard for the rights of other countries displayed by China, it is obvious why Chinese capital and companies have to be banned or reduced.
You cannot have trade / exchanges with a country that is on the verge of attacking you. The very fact that China chose a military display of power to provoke India, very clearly shows that China does not respect India and it's sovereignty.
Now you may couple this with other aspects of Indian domestic and foreign policies, but those have to be solved through other channels. Not by military force.
Perhaps you are from the US, and believe that global flow of capital is more important and sacred than other issues, but I would encourage you to have a look from a different perspective.
Investments by Chinese companies in various countries around the world makes it clear that China is trying to influence internal politics of other nations through it's money and loans.
Please read how Chinese companies have wreaked havoc in Africa and South-east Asia.
At this point of time, China simply cannot be trusted by India and Indians. Neither should other countries. Because, in the long term, China has plans for world domination and being a super power. But that is not based on sound values, like that in the US constitution, but based on authoritarian diktats and a world view where Chinese usually see no one is their equal or even close to being one.
Please cite your sources, exactly and to the point.
Lockdown if executed in any way would have been abused by the people.
People went on a rampage in *religious ( Taliban linked)" gatherings, India didn't had much cases but these bunch of people made sure the cases spread.
It's the people to he blamed for the lockdown spread
India has all the right to protect its economy and people from chinese spying and tech dependency . Is nt that what US is doing with tariffs and bringing back jobs??
"Do they really want to start a trade war with China?"
why not?? It already too late to stop china. India needs to protect its borders and economy from chinese incursions
It is, but for PRC, US is a major export partner, they can't really cut them off without themselves suffering too. So, US can afford to go on offensive there. Also, US does have technological capability to build the things they import themselves.
India and China aren't exactly friends, I think its pretty reasonable to limit business ties of any kind. A sovereign nation has the right to ban any import, are you disputing that?
I'm struggling to understand the intent of your comment. In no way is it about "not having the right". I took it to mean the implications of a souring relationship - which certainly isn't the "right direction" to see relationships evolve.
China and India are economic giants - it'd would be preferable that they not see each other as not friends.
Is a video game, or any digital file, "an import" anymore? There's nothing physical to be imported so what the government is really "banning" here is access to information. That makes me a little uncomfortable, especially given India's reason: "they are engaged in activities which is prejudicial to sovereignty and integrity of India, defence of India, security of state and public order".
I'm not even sure what that means but I suspect that's intentional. From my reading though it doesn't sound like India is doing this as economic sanctions or for the health/safety/welfare of citizens (which would be the typical reasons for a democracy to ban an import). Instead it seems the government has decided that allowing citizens to access this information presents some sort of national security threat.
Sort of calls into question the quality of the citizen in a modern democracy if they are asked to make judgments on war and industry and yet they cannot be trusted with online video games.
The founders of modern democracy already questioned the quality of the average citizen and whether they could be trusted with policy making. Hence the US was founded as a representative democracy. Citizens didn't make judgements on war and industry, they made judgements on politicians that would do so on their behalf.
Or maybe citizens on an individual level benefit more from online video games then they are harmed by them. If I played PUBG, the enjoyment from the game far outweighs the tiny risk that the data I leak to China is going to hurt me someday.
Really country's claiming interests is so damn vague it should be a massive red flag as it can justify just about anything including say leveling Mount Everest to try to bring in more rain.
I appreciate the sentiment of having more domestic alternatives and competition but there's an insignificant amount of work here. Indie developers and studios won't start making apps and games for India unless they can sustain themselves. That is hard. I expect bigger companies such as jio to take lion's share and have a default monopoly at this point.
> India has emerged as the fastest growing app market in the world with 19 billion apps downloaded in 2019, up from 6.55 billion in 2016, according to data from analytics and market intelligence firm App Annie’s State of Mobile 2020 report published last week.
> Indians have spent only $120 million on mobile apps whereas China dominates mobile spending with $48 billion, which is 40% of total revenue generated through mobile apps.
> In-app subscriptions contributed to 96% of spend in top non-gaming apps.
> PM Narendra Modi on Sunday urged startups and entrepreneurs to develop innovative “toys and games, for India and of India” to meet domestic demand and increase its share in the global toy business, estimated at Rs 7 lakh crore. He also called upon people to support indigenously developed apps which could replace the ones currently in vogue and are controlled by foreign companies.
Jio unfortunately blatantly copies western apps and adds a 'Made in India' tag. Therefore people think it is patriotic to use it.
They copied Whatsapp but removed the end to end encryption.
They copied Zoom and removed the decent security.
They copied amazon and started JioMart, whose apps look exactly the same.
Am waiting for them to start Jioogle, as an alternative search engine.
Once Jio is a monopoly, you'll have to get JioMilk from JioCow which'll be grazed on JioFarms using JioGrass in JioContainers. The cows will drink JioWater which'll come from JioMonsoon from JioRiver on JioMountain.
You'll also use JioApps on JioAndroid (* in partnership with Google) which you'll buy from JioMart which'll use JioRouter and JioFiber on Jio sim card, it'll use JioDart for delivery and the delivery guy will use JioHonda bike using Reliance for petrol on JioRoad (special roads to be used only by Jio Customers) breating JioAir (special air for Jio customers), biker will use JioGlass which'll connect to JioNet using JioVast for virus protection.
You'll also use JioVators in JioMalls to go up and down the floors watch a JioCinema in the JioMall, walk on JioTiles use JioRailings.
You'll get JioPlants from JioNursery which'll be plucked from JioForest growing on JioSoil.
You'll vote in JioElections using JioEVMs while standing in JioLines having a JioVoterCard while living in a Jiocracy.
My point was that we need to do more than just a ban.
> Chinese apps have always been a security risk
I don't disagree. But I find this phrasing a little unclear. National security and broadly speaking security are different. Indian apps and services don't fare well in the latter category.
> but there are alternatives.
Yes, but why haven't they seen the same growth naturally?
The top grossing page is filled with more Indian apps only recently due to the political atmosphere. What happened before?
Indian companies and developers have a cultural advantage and market understanding both of which are important for entertainment services to take off such as games. What's the reason behind the lag? Can you give examples of alternatives that were well established before this year?
> Mostly youth will be annoyed by lack of their favorite time-waster apps
This mentality doesn't help. This is discouraging individuals from experimenting with creative outlets in the country. That would have given us more Indian games opposed to china filling the market. E-sports is a big industry and is only growing. How do you expect anyone to innovate here when they are demonized by culture for taking interest in these games?
Surely, the problem is people aren't educated on topics such as addiction and they are considered as taboos.
This is typical HN mentality to assume that other people are comparatively well versed in technical aspects. 99% indians (may be a little exaggerated figure) don't have any clue about VPN. Most don't even know how to side-install any app. So government actions do have some significance.
There is no need to side-install; just go on the play store and search for some bullshit spam phrase like 'unblock pubg' and you'll get your pick of dozens if not more of ad-filled, malicious "VPN" that does MITM and ad injection into all pages.
You'll literally get thousands of results of spam apps just directly named "VPN FOR PUBG" or "VPN UN BLOCK PUBG GROUNDS BATTLE PLAYER GAME CALL OF DUTY SPONGEBOB ESPONJA BOB", all of which are malware.
I just checked for myself, and this is pretty much how it is. The publishers behind this garbage have hundreds of uploaded apps, all of which are effectively the same one but with different names like "UNBLOCK P U B G PAKISTAN" or "VPN FOR PUBG PLAYER FORT NIGHT", and a random one loaded virtually every single data-exfiltration SDK known to man, and several known to animals.
My aunt and mother use a bunch of websites I've never heard of for free streaming of movies and TV shows. They may not be the most informed about potential hidden costs of these services, but they are definitely resourceful in finding them. I think you overestimate the difficulty of using technology. All you need to do is learn to type "How do I get $web_service for free?" in the search bar.
I don’t think that 99% is correct. I know my brother who never used a computer knows how to share apps without internet and play store. They install apps using shareit like apps.
I know people who use VPN, but can't reinstall windows. Using VPN today is so simple, people do that without even knowing that they do. For them, it's: "I installed this thingy and now I can watch Hulu" and not "I install VPN to route my traffic via other country in order to by-pass national firewall"
You can say the same about Facebook and Google in China...You can sideload or use VPN. Some do. Most don't. Blocking FB & Google ecosystems allowed for China to grow their own competitors.
China has invested into its Great Firewall, which is far, far better than the techniques most ISPs here use to block websites. Besides, VPNs aren't banned, and the government isn't cracking down on generic VPNs. It's far easier to get a VPN in India to browse TikTok than it is to get a VPN in China to browse Facebook. You can even see it in the list of apps that were banned - there's two literally called "VPN for TikTok".
The thing is, there's hardly anything outside GFW that an average Chinese would want, local alternatives often are feature rich and considered "more advanced", outside news are dismissed as "obscenely fake and hostile".
In the few Chinese that do pay for VPNs, most women use it to access Instagram for celebrities, most men for porn on Twitter.
The ones who will use a VPN to access stuff, are generally of above average IQ, who are less susceptible to propaganda. Not entirely immune, but less susceptible.
Leaving that aside, bans have a very real impact, even if there are other channels to access banned content. You cannot advertise banned content, you cannot distribute it en-masse, you cannot hold competitions, etc, etc. All these have massive effects on the marketing and sales channels.
Sure, some %age of people will use it from VPNs and stuff, but those are few and far between.
In case of online games, people may simply move to other games like Fortnite or what not.
I know tech-savvy software developers of mine, who hardly side load apps. Why? Side loading apps when a secure and curated app store is available is generally avoided due to security and other issues.
In India, with every smartphone having digital payment apps, and the prevalence of scams and frauds, most middle class, urban teens and adults will generally avoid side loading apps. You can safely assume that many in rural areas, are not even aware of side loading stuff.
Always wondered about these Free VPNs, how are they free? Are they actually free? Is that why you used "Free" in quotes? Must be a valid model behind it since the bandwith must be insane.
The Chinese government mandates that every app written in China must track and trace it's users.
This applies to apps running outside China but owned by Chinese companies.
1+ or Xiaomi or Huawei, they can't really do anything about it.
It's surprising to see people in the US defend tiktok without realizing what's actually going on behind the scenes. Every company that does business in China, especially if hugely successful, will have the government step in to intervene and spy.
I'm hearing that China might impose secondary sanctions on Reliance Jio in retaliation - no Chinese manufacturer can sell them phones or help buildout/maintain their NW infrastructure; tech companies that operate in China would have to divest out of China entirely to do business with Jio, etc.
We simply can't afford German, US or Taiwan tools/machineries.
And if it's gone, big players will not affected by small players will have major problem. Getting manufacturing permission in India is not easy and very resource intensive.
Readit News
Before anyone downvotes or questions if Pixel uses Stock Android, ask yourself why Pixels have Pixel exclusive features not available in AOSP or not used by Android 1 phones like Nokia
If they can make iPhones in India, they can certainly figure out how to build competitive, inexpensive phones to replace those made in China.
Ads in default apps, user data collection and selling the said collected data.
CCP has a unit within almost every Chinese company making sure they adhere to CCP policy it's impossible to avoid when data is on the other side of the fence.
is there some kind of signature you can use to ascertain that the code you have is what's actually on the device ?
Is it possible to do the same for the SIM (as I understand it, it is its own microsystem and intelligence companies have already _at least_ attempted to insert their code in there) ?
what about play services or its equivalent ? These are often closed source and have lots of system permissions (since they handle lots of capabilities, they need a broad access).
edit : for clarity, I don't think it is a bad idea, I just wonder how doable it is.
I own both.
I do think India is going on a slippery slope now. With Tiktok, one can even make a case of it being used to manipulate sentiments and being used for propoganda, but that argument can hardly be made for a game like PubG. It also brings into question whether the ruling government can disrupt a business on its whim of the day.
Also, as far as I understand India is far more dependent economically on trade with China then China is on India. Do they really want to start a trade war with China?
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/01/indian-special...
The first real disaster to the Indian economy was the billions in retroactive taxes that were applied to telecoms. And then the attempt made by the government to break through the corporate firewalls and extract that money from foreign parents. That hit FDI immediately.
That was followed by demonetization, extremely poor rollout of GST, a terribly executed lockdown and subsequent reopening, and now the arbitrary control over Chinese companies when China is probably the largest private investor in India right now. All these things are hurting India with little benefit to show for, other than jingoistic support for the ruling party.
India is yet another example of “<Country> First” parties coming in and taking actions which undermine the absolute fundamentals of what the country is and damaging it and its citizens in so many ways.
Make life terrible for your citizens and blame China while looting your citizens left right and center is apparently a winning strategy in multiple countries.
Of course, India still has long way to go regarding Ease of Doing Business, with byzantine land and permit laws, capital crunch for MSME etc.. Some states like UP, Gujarat are trying to get around byzantine laws by abolishing them for few years. And of course GDP will contract after complete lockdown for a quarter.
1. https://www.financialexpress.com/economy/modis-incentive-sch...
2. https://www.financialexpress.com/economy/modis-incentive-sch...
I do not fully agree with some of the other points made, but this I completely disagree. There are many reasons the banning of Chinese money and influence in India is a long term strategic security issue.
For the immediate short-term, there are Chinese tanks, fighter planes, artillery and soldiers gathering across the border with India, with multiple incidents and provocations. India still has the debacle of 1962 Sino-Chinese war fresh in it's mind. Couple that with the recent aggressive posturing, land grabs and general disregard for the rights of other countries displayed by China, it is obvious why Chinese capital and companies have to be banned or reduced.
You cannot have trade / exchanges with a country that is on the verge of attacking you. The very fact that China chose a military display of power to provoke India, very clearly shows that China does not respect India and it's sovereignty.
Now you may couple this with other aspects of Indian domestic and foreign policies, but those have to be solved through other channels. Not by military force.
Perhaps you are from the US, and believe that global flow of capital is more important and sacred than other issues, but I would encourage you to have a look from a different perspective.
Investments by Chinese companies in various countries around the world makes it clear that China is trying to influence internal politics of other nations through it's money and loans.
Please read how Chinese companies have wreaked havoc in Africa and South-east Asia.
At this point of time, China simply cannot be trusted by India and Indians. Neither should other countries. Because, in the long term, China has plans for world domination and being a super power. But that is not based on sound values, like that in the US constitution, but based on authoritarian diktats and a world view where Chinese usually see no one is their equal or even close to being one.
Deleted Comment
People went on a rampage in *religious ( Taliban linked)" gatherings, India didn't had much cases but these bunch of people made sure the cases spread.
It's the people to he blamed for the lockdown spread
This might not be that true for India. Related subthread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24355659
China and India are economic giants - it'd would be preferable that they not see each other as not friends.
I'm not even sure what that means but I suspect that's intentional. From my reading though it doesn't sound like India is doing this as economic sanctions or for the health/safety/welfare of citizens (which would be the typical reasons for a democracy to ban an import). Instead it seems the government has decided that allowing citizens to access this information presents some sort of national security threat.
I'd venture to say many apps are against _everyone's_ interest due to the caustic effects on society they have.
> India has emerged as the fastest growing app market in the world with 19 billion apps downloaded in 2019, up from 6.55 billion in 2016, according to data from analytics and market intelligence firm App Annie’s State of Mobile 2020 report published last week.
> Indians have spent only $120 million on mobile apps whereas China dominates mobile spending with $48 billion, which is 40% of total revenue generated through mobile apps.
> In-app subscriptions contributed to 96% of spend in top non-gaming apps.
https://entrackr.com/2020/01/india-is-fastest-growing-market...
Some background:
> PM Narendra Modi on Sunday urged startups and entrepreneurs to develop innovative “toys and games, for India and of India” to meet domestic demand and increase its share in the global toy business, estimated at Rs 7 lakh crore. He also called upon people to support indigenously developed apps which could replace the ones currently in vogue and are controlled by foreign companies.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/...
They copied Whatsapp but removed the end to end encryption. They copied Zoom and removed the decent security. They copied amazon and started JioMart, whose apps look exactly the same.
Am waiting for them to start Jioogle, as an alternative search engine.
Future of India, Jio edition
Once Jio is a monopoly, you'll have to get JioMilk from JioCow which'll be grazed on JioFarms using JioGrass in JioContainers. The cows will drink JioWater which'll come from JioMonsoon from JioRiver on JioMountain.
You'll also use JioApps on JioAndroid (* in partnership with Google) which you'll buy from JioMart which'll use JioRouter and JioFiber on Jio sim card, it'll use JioDart for delivery and the delivery guy will use JioHonda bike using Reliance for petrol on JioRoad (special roads to be used only by Jio Customers) breating JioAir (special air for Jio customers), biker will use JioGlass which'll connect to JioNet using JioVast for virus protection.
You'll also use JioVators in JioMalls to go up and down the floors watch a JioCinema in the JioMall, walk on JioTiles use JioRailings.
You'll get JioPlants from JioNursery which'll be plucked from JioForest growing on JioSoil.
You'll vote in JioElections using JioEVMs while standing in JioLines having a JioVoterCard while living in a Jiocracy.
https://np.reddit.com/r/india/comments/hsuglq/the_future_of_...
First you copy badly, then you copy well, then you improve.
Baby steps.
> Chinese apps have always been a security risk
I don't disagree. But I find this phrasing a little unclear. National security and broadly speaking security are different. Indian apps and services don't fare well in the latter category.
> but there are alternatives.
Yes, but why haven't they seen the same growth naturally? The top grossing page is filled with more Indian apps only recently due to the political atmosphere. What happened before?
Indian companies and developers have a cultural advantage and market understanding both of which are important for entertainment services to take off such as games. What's the reason behind the lag? Can you give examples of alternatives that were well established before this year?
> Mostly youth will be annoyed by lack of their favorite time-waster apps
This mentality doesn't help. This is discouraging individuals from experimenting with creative outlets in the country. That would have given us more Indian games opposed to china filling the market. E-sports is a big industry and is only growing. How do you expect anyone to innovate here when they are demonized by culture for taking interest in these games?
Surely, the problem is people aren't educated on topics such as addiction and they are considered as taboos.
Most people own Android phones where they can sideload apps downloaded from some third party APK website (of questionable trustworthiness)
iPhones have negligible penetration in India so are not even a part of the equation.
In Morocco, people would just go to the Souk and have a guy do it for them. Same in most countries of the sort.
Also, on android, you literally just have to download the .APK and follow the on-screen instructions.
You'll literally get thousands of results of spam apps just directly named "VPN FOR PUBG" or "VPN UN BLOCK PUBG GROUNDS BATTLE PLAYER GAME CALL OF DUTY SPONGEBOB ESPONJA BOB", all of which are malware.
I just checked for myself, and this is pretty much how it is. The publishers behind this garbage have hundreds of uploaded apps, all of which are effectively the same one but with different names like "UNBLOCK P U B G PAKISTAN" or "VPN FOR PUBG PLAYER FORT NIGHT", and a random one loaded virtually every single data-exfiltration SDK known to man, and several known to animals.
I knew an Iranian women who told me in Iran everyone knew how to setup and configure a VPN due to the restrictions they have in place.
It's that way western countries because we don't have such restrictions.
In the few Chinese that do pay for VPNs, most women use it to access Instagram for celebrities, most men for porn on Twitter.
Deleted Comment
Leaving that aside, bans have a very real impact, even if there are other channels to access banned content. You cannot advertise banned content, you cannot distribute it en-masse, you cannot hold competitions, etc, etc. All these have massive effects on the marketing and sales channels.
Sure, some %age of people will use it from VPNs and stuff, but those are few and far between.
In case of online games, people may simply move to other games like Fortnite or what not.
I know tech-savvy software developers of mine, who hardly side load apps. Why? Side loading apps when a secure and curated app store is available is generally avoided due to security and other issues.
In India, with every smartphone having digital payment apps, and the prevalence of scams and frauds, most middle class, urban teens and adults will generally avoid side loading apps. You can safely assume that many in rural areas, are not even aware of side loading stuff.
Some have even dies due to addiction. [2]
[1]- https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/delhi/2020/aug/17/pu...
[2] - https://www.scoopwhoop.com/news/16-year-old-addicted-to-pubg...
There are many more. I just gave a single example.
They may also force pubg to include a unique device ban. You can't change device ID without rooting your device.
See: https://developer.android.com/training/articles/user-data-id...
1+ or Xiaomi or Huawei, they can't really do anything about it.
They have to track users to be not banned.
Jio already proudly claims, No Chinese Equipment on their network.
80% tool and machinery market is owned by China.
We simply can't afford German, US or Taiwan tools/machineries.
And if it's gone, big players will not affected by small players will have major problem. Getting manufacturing permission in India is not easy and very resource intensive.