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stickfigure · 5 years ago
I was a bit surprised by this exchange:

Q: Should I be more worried about EMP Attacks or solar storms?

A: Opinions differ. But the EMP Commission is more worried about EMP attacks.

Q: Why?

Here's where I expected the answer to be:

A: Because it's the EMP Commission. It's right there in the name. The Solar Storm Commission is down the hall on the right.

(I personally imagine it in the voice of John Cleese)

daenz · 5 years ago
This reminds me, I've been toying with the idea of starting a github repository for survival and rebuilding society if a major SHTF scenario occurred. It would be crowdsourced and bake-able into an ebook for offline reading. Anybody interested in it as a "Show HN" post?
throw0101a · 5 years ago
> […] repository for survival and rebuilding society if a major SHTF scenario occurred.

There's a book (ISBN 978-0143127048):

> Maybe it was a viral pandemic, or an asteroid strike, or perhaps nuclear war. Whatever the cause, the world as we know it has ended and you and the other survivors must start again. What key knowledge would you need to start rebuilding civilisation from scratch?

> Once you’ve scavenged what you can, how do you begin producing the essentials? How do you grow food, generate power, prepare medicines, or get metal out of rocks? Could you avert another Dark Ages or take shortcuts to accelerate redevelopment?

* http://the-knowledge.org/en-gb/the-book/

Of course it's at layman's level of understanding, so further resources would be needed to get all the details.

messe · 5 years ago
> get metal out of rocks?

I'd imagine that prioritising getting metal out of old components would be a more efficient process. It's my understanding that there aren't many easily accessible metal deposits left, as there would have been thousands of years ago.

daenz · 5 years ago
This would be a great starting point for the repo. The goal would be to have this layman-level knowledge like this and then flesh out the extreme technical details by crowdsourcing verified experts. I'm especially interested in how to organize traumatized people in a productive way, since that will likely be one of the biggest hurdles to overcome.
alasdair_ · 5 years ago
Protip: order the paper version. I suspect having a working, charged Kindle may be difficult in the event the book is actually required.
jnurmine · 5 years ago
If such a major SHTF happens that it warrants rebuilding the society and figuring out how to survive, then Github will be down, internet will be a rare occurence and your computer isn't likely to work for very long either.

Electronic distribution and consumption of media isn't very resilient if one expects a large-scale SHTF event. For such a scenario, it'd be better to pump out tons of copies as cheap paperback books.

Of course, this depends on the definition and scale of the SHTF. Personally I don't think it's much of an SHTF if one still can consult e-books in any form.

throwaway4aday · 5 years ago
An even better plan would be to learn the skills that you would put in that book. The amount of information you can put in a book is only enough for a rough starting point (and that's if the book only has one subject). The practical experience necessary to do these things correctly and efficiently is only really gained by doing them repeatedly.

A further improvement would be to build a small community that practices these skills and tries to be as independent as possible from the current grid. These are all orders of magnitude more complex and difficult than the last but just imagine how much more difficult it would be to bootstrap society in a real SHTF scenario.

skummetmaelk · 5 years ago
Imagine that scene from Planet of the Apes where Gary Oldman powers up an old broken iPad. But instead of looking at pictures of his family he opens up a digital copy of "how to rebuild society after the end of the world".
daenz · 5 years ago
I have a waterproof kindle and a portable solar panel for charging. That's more what I had in mind with an ebook version. It can store more content, easier/lighter for travelling, read at night, and waterproof.
m463 · 5 years ago
But although github is centralized, git is distributed.

and tcp/ip was literally built for nuclear war.

This would be like tech prepper paradise.

We could sync our tech trees and rebuild!

pronoiac · 5 years ago
You might like Ryan North's "How to Invent Everything," the survival guide for the stranded time traveller: https://www.howtoinventeverything.com/
aruggirello · 5 years ago
I'd recommend you check out Kiwix [1], an app but also a decade-old effort to make portable, offline working wikipedia copies. Coupled with a decent phone/tablet and there you have it...

Or maybe you're more inclined towards a "FM 21-76 US ARMY SURVIVAL MANUAL" kind of project?

[1] https://www.kiwix.org/en/

ramzeus · 5 years ago
Wikipedia is a quite good repository of all sorts of information. You can always clone that at put it on your computer for offline viewing.
noir_lord · 5 years ago
You can also make a proper book[1] from a series of wikipedia articles (mixing and matching what you want) to generate a properly indexed book.

Laser print that on acid-free archival quality paper, bind and put in a dark, dry place and it'll outlive us all.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Books

DarthGhandi · 5 years ago
You can find a lot of good resources/ideas for this in the prepping community.
drtillberg · 5 years ago
I interpreted the report as: "There are 9 unguarded remote sites which, if damaged maliciously or accidentally, would lead to complete collapse of the U.S. as a nation."

And then experts focus on 2 unlikely generalized scenarios of an area EMP effect incidentally affecting the sites. As for the more obvious catastrophe of someone specifically targeting the locations? I guess that's being discussed separately?[1]

[1] https://money.cnn.com/2015/10/16/technology/sniper-power-gri...

codingdave · 5 years ago
I must have missed the "unguarded remote" part of the article. I read that there are 30 critical sites, any 9 of which would be a problem if taken out.

To me, this sounds standard risk management. It sounds like a clear picture that it falls in the "Low Likelihood / High Impact" quadrant, though, which is the toughest quadrant to address, because you get into exactly the kinds of questions you alluded to - unlikely, generalized ideas of what could happen, but having to balance that with everyday operations which are absolutely going to happen. Even with a known mitigation of stockpiling resources to recover from such an event, at a price tag of $300M, there are many other things that money could go to.

And while I'd like to feel safe knowing they have a solution ready, I don't know enough about the budgetary limits or what other programs would have to be reduced to make that $300M be available to give a solid personal opinion on any of this.

TheOtherHobbes · 5 years ago
The US military budget is nearly $700bn annually, and NASA's budget is $22.6bn.

For the US government, $300M is pocket money. It's unbelievably negligent not to spend a relatively tiny sum which could avoid total collapse.

It's like owning a very grand house and not paying a few hundred dollars for insurance.

noir_lord · 5 years ago
It surprises me that physical attacks against infrastructure haven't been wider then they have.
mrlonglong · 5 years ago
People have tried to destroy mobile phone masts in the mistaken (and deluded) belief that they cause Corona virus. Never under estimate people's stupidity.
arminiusreturns · 5 years ago

  The chances of an EMP attack
  Q: I’ve heard a lot from you about how dangerous an EMP attack could be. But how likely is it that anyone will actually try to attack us with an EMP?
  A: Unlike the EMP Commission, most national security experts view EMP attacks as a second rate threat. While perhaps some small terrorist groups or rogue nations might launch a localized EMP attack that might take out a substation or two, it’s unlikely that any country capable of launching a major EMP attack would actually do so.
  Q: Why not?
  A: Because to launch a major EMP attack, a country would need a large nuclear weapon. And if a country was planning on using a large nuclear weapon, it would make more sense — in the morbid logic of war — to conventionally drop it on a city than to launch an EMP attack which would at most cause some brief power disruptions in a few states. As physicist Yousaf Butt put it, “A weapon of mass destruction is preferable to a weapon of mass disruption”.
This is very wrong and just tells me we should be even more cautious due to it being a blind side. The defense industry has for over a decade had highly deployable, targetable, non-nuclear EMP. (ex1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh1rgy25XhU) If there is one thing I know, it's that the tools we develop for war in other places tend to end up being used back at home. So I would also disagree with the casual dismissal of the likelihood of use domestically. Further, part of the entire reasoning in natsec circles for the increasingly egregious violations of the constitution is because of the increase in ability for non nation-state actors to be able to perform in new types of asymmetric attacks, and I would say non-nuclear EMP would be just one in that list.

The good news: I think most of these problems are solvable, and will assist us in being more ready to explore the extreme parts of our world and beyond. Making tempest and EMP shielding default in electronics manufacturing for example. It would also assist in reduction of the totalitarian surveillance regime... so I say lets all start talking about how to do shielding properly. There is a lot of misinformation out there about it. I do wonder though, how much of that misinformation is on purpose. Like encryption, at what point does the government decide to suppress a technology because it might hinder their power? Things to ponder.

Stratoscope · 5 years ago
Readable version of your quote:

> The chances of an EMP attack

> Q: I’ve heard a lot from you about how dangerous an EMP attack could be. But how likely is it that anyone will actually try to attack us with an EMP?

> A: Unlike the EMP Commission, most national security experts view EMP attacks as a second rate threat. While perhaps some small terrorist groups or rogue nations might launch a localized EMP attack that might take out a substation or two, it’s unlikely that any country capable of launching a major EMP attack would actually do so.

> Q: Why not?

> A: Because to launch a major EMP attack, a country would need a large nuclear weapon. And if a country was planning on using a large nuclear weapon, it would make more sense — in the morbid logic of war — to conventionally drop it on a city than to launch an EMP attack which would at most cause some brief power disruptions in a few states. As physicist Yousaf Butt put it, “A weapon of mass destruction is preferable to a weapon of mass disruption”.

tgsovlerkhgsel · 5 years ago
It seems like an EMP attack would be best bet against the US for an actor with a very limited number of nukes. From the field strength maps I've seen, a single large nuke (not sure if NK's nukes are large enough) would affect all of the US, two nukes and they could hit the coasts.

Nuking a city destroys a city, destroying the electrical grid takes out most of a nations industrial production and forces them to focus on short-term survival.

An EMP taking out the power grid across the US in a way that isn't quickly recovered from would likely be a lot more devastating - definitely in terms of industrial capacity, possibly also in human losses due to starvation and general collapse - than nuking two major cities with the same yield.

alkonaut · 5 years ago
Any nuclear exchange will be focused on preventing the other side from using their nukes first and foremost. If the US has N locations to launch nukes from, then an attacker better have N+1 nukes if they want to spend one in the atmosphere for EMP too.

Delivering a conventional strike on N transformer stations would probably be a better idea since there would then likely be a conventional retaliation and not a nuclear obliteration of the attacking country. I guess with North Korea you can’t know.

dghughes · 5 years ago
Whenever I read about EMP it reminds me of an interesting device called an explosively pumped flux compression generator (EPFCG). It generates an EMP using explosives but the blast is not the goal it's generating a massive electrical current (millions f amps in a microsecond).

From what I can understand an EPFCG needs an explosive-driven ferromagnetic generator (EDFMG). I imagine the EDFMG is used like a fuse or blasting cap for the EPFCG.

I'm not sure of the size of the devices.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1996/...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive-driven_ferromagnetic...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_pumped_flux_compre...

Starwatcher2001 · 5 years ago
If this subject interests you, I'd highly recommend the book "Sunfall" by Jim Al-Khalili. It's the physicist's first venture into fiction and is based around the threat of coronal mass ejections and a flipping of the Earths magnetic field. He also weaves hacking, encryption and other science themes into the plot.

As you might expect from a theoretical physicist, it's based on solid science, with a small amount of poetic licence that he describes in the afterword.

It's been described as "The Day After Tomorrow meets Neuromancer". Not sure I'd quite go that far, but it's a damn good read.

Seb-C · 5 years ago
So I am not an expert in this field, and actually I only have a vague idea in what a transformer does, but is there a reason to believe this would not be repairable? We are not talking about a usual bomb, so most of the materials and infrastructure would still be there. It would not make any sense to build a new one instead of repairing or replacing the damaged parts.
baybal2 · 5 years ago
> EMP attacks...

For an EMP attack to be effective on modern electronics, you need to blow up a multimegaton nuclear bomb close enough for it to take out whomever is using that piece of electronics...

T-A · 5 years ago
No. Optimal altitude for an EMP attack is actually a few hundred kilometers up. The "base case" usually considered in these scenarios is a nuke going off about 400 km over Omaha. At that altitude, the ionosphere helps you create a "slow" E3 pulse which induces a field in the tens of volts per kilometer at ground level; and since you can see most of the continental US, you have plenty of kilometers to work with.
tgsovlerkhgsel · 5 years ago
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:EMP_mechanism.png shows a field strength of 25 kV/m for most of the US.

My understanding could be wrong, but wouldn't this mean exposing a 1 cm wide component (and/or components that have one cm long traces attached) to at least 250 V?

Wouldn't this be expected to destroy not every single component, but enough components to make enough hardware inoperable to collapse all industrial and power generation capabilities? (If you destroy 10% of ICs on only 10% of control boards in a power plant or factory, I'd assume that plant goes down hard and isn't coming up any time soon.)

ideals · 5 years ago
400km is LEO territory for satellites. Does this mean anything not in eclipse at that time is fried or blown up?

Also wouldn't that start/accelerate the Kessler Syndrome

baybal2 · 5 years ago
That long wave EMP was only a threat to early unprotected powerlines, not electronics.

What is a threat to electronics are VHF pulses from initial xray burst from the bomb.

jnurmine · 5 years ago
An EMP attack is of course a plausible and realistic, but a rather costly, dare I say, somewhat of a science fiction formulation of an attack.

Any attacker is unlikely to choose the most costliest and fanciful form of attack. Wouldn't it be much more cost efficient to send multiple groups of people to drive around and snipe or blow up equipment of transformer stations at key places?

01100011 · 5 years ago
Source? I don't think the MOV in your power strip, or the typical ESD protections are going to save you.

There are also conventional EMPs to worry about.

Also, you could probably just take out key points with carbon dust bombs like we did in Iraq War #1.

eppp · 5 years ago
An EMP attack would destroy the power grid, your modern electronics may survive but without anything to power them.
iso1210 · 5 years ago
If it's just the grid that's gone, generators are available - hell I have a mobile one sat in my driveway.
aaron695 · 5 years ago
Pretty much, but there's no point explaining it to people. Not believing in nuclear weapons destroying everything with god like power is right wing.

It doesn't even make sense, EMP's are nukes, someone just stared nuking you and you're worried about the EMP.

nabla9 · 5 years ago
>It doesn't even make sense,

It starts to make sense once you know how nuclear EMP attack works. The detonation would happen high in the space (400 km) and would not cause direct effects or radiation on the earth.

EMP pulse in a continent wide nuclear EMP attack is not coming from the nuclear detonation directly. It comes from synchrotron radiation when free electrons in upper atmosphere interact with earths magnetic field