I'm opposed to the construction of new nuclear plants (still open to possibility of new fusion plants at some in the future) but from an environmental standpoint it makes far more sense to maintain the existing nuclear plants - at least for now.
The biggest drawbacks of nuclear power (expensive and slow plant construction) are off the table with existing plants! Hardening existing plants against possible future catastrophe is probably far cheaper in both economic and human terms than new coal plan construction.
Japan already does pretty good job (relatively speaking) with solar power, but it could do much better with the money it will spend on new coal plants if it built more wind power and fixed up existing nuclear plants.
This argument causes some of the problems this argument tries to avoid.
> I'm opposed to the construction of new nuclear plants
The technology involved in nuclear plants has evolved tremendously, both in terms of efficiency and in terms of safety, but the technology of the new generation is fundamentally different.
> The biggest drawbacks of nuclear power (expensive and slow plant construction) are off the table with existing plants!
Old plants use outdated designs. Nobody would tolerate the 1972 Internet infrastructure nowadays, and yet Chernobyl was created that year, and is still in use.
The main reason old plants stick around instead of being replaced is that Greenpeace and Green parties influence each other into lobbying against building correct reactors.
Take Superphénix: a French Gen IV reactor started construction twelve years before the Chernobyl accident. Its design is still considered next-gen and highly favorable today.
Activists literally fired rocket-propelled grenades at it while it was being built. It got so bad that they had to shut it down.
They tried building a similar Gen IV reactor recently, ASTRID, that improved tremendously even compared to the advanced Superphénix, and it got cancelled six months ago because of lobbies.
So all that remains are old plants… designs that were essentially initial drafts meant to be replaced by better technology, but that never gets shut down because every replacement gets lobbied against.
Those old designs have awful properties, so yeah, we get Chernobyl and Fukushima. We would have had neither if people had let replace the oldest generation. But because of Greenpeace, people died, and fear rose, when all this was unnecessary.
The primary failure at Fukushima was a sea wall too low for the tsunami that occurred. How is the reactor design relevant?
Also regarding Superphénix, your telling of this seems a bit biased - The rocket attack occurred in 1982 and it was shut down in 1997 by the prime minister due to excessive cost.
"a group of 80 physicists from the Lyon Physics Institute wrote an open letter about the risks of breeder technology, and in February 1975, about 400 scientists signed their name to an expanded letter."
Japan pretty much imports all of its energy. Its an Island nation with limited flat-land that is densely populated - the Solar production is limited and cannot significantly contribute to its energy needs. Off-shore wind may help, but Japan going forward will assemble one of the most diverse energy portfolios.
Sigh... we really need more functional nuclear plants that aren't built to use technology from the 70s. I suspect that one reason Bernie is against new nuclear plant creation is the absolute debacle that was Vermont Yankee[1]. Even a lot of pro and pro-ish nuclear folks in Vermont got pretty disheartened by the whole affair.
These plants cost insane capital to get running and mismanagement can cause serious problems, so economic pressures tightening belts (or just greed for higher profits) is a constant force fighting against safety... Newer reactor designs contain much safer critical failure outcomes that could allow them to safely operate - even within the constant profit pressure of modern culture.
Same thing happened in Germany. This is a really hard problem. I consider myself pretty pro-nuclear but it can never be 100% safe. I can't blame Japan for wanting out after Fukushima, but at the same time there has to be some kind of approach that balances short-term safety against the long-term consequences of carbonization.
No energy source is 100% safe. People die when working on windmills and hydroelectric disasters are way more deadly than nuclear disasters. I think 100% safe is an unreasonable requirement.
Coal pollution kills more people per day globally[1] than all nuclear disasters combined[2] ever have. Pollution kills between 7500 and 52000 annually just in USA. The range is wide because it's hard to measure.
That's 20/day dead from pollution just in USA.
Nuclear disasters are verified at about 2400 deaths over 41 years. Around 1/week.
Banqiao Hydroelectric Dam, China, was breached Aug. 8 1975 killing more than 85,000 people that day. A study conducted by eight Chinese water science experts who probably had access to censored government reports, estimated the number of total dead — from flooding and the resulting epidemics and famine — at 230,000.
Safety is not necessarily the concern, though clearly important. It's also the huge task of decommissioning afterwards. Even "safe" nuclear power stations require the disposal of all sorts of irradiated mundane things like PPE. Contrary to popular belief its not all spent fuel rods. When you dismantle it's even more difficult because you have to use specialised equipment to take buildings apart room by room. We're still not good at decommissioning, it's an active research area (lots of funding though) and it's going to be like this for decades.
It did happen. Germany has shut down most of its nuclear power generation and is phasing the rest out by 2022. So far, 'researchers [..] found that nuclear power was mostly replaced with power from coal plants, which led to [..] about a 5 percent increase in emissions.'
"Turned to renewables" while burning 36% coal according to your graph.
Yes, if they've always been using coal, I guess technically they didn't "turned to" coal, but how is it better?
Meanwhile neighboring France, with its 70%+ energy generated from nuclear, generates about half as much CO2 per capita as Germany. Right now, and in the foreseeable future.
Japan has been increasing its year over year coal consumption since like, the 70's, and while I'm sure "more coal" isn't a good thing, ~20 Mt a year jumping up to ~21 Mt a year isn't exactly dramatic.
If you happen to take a peek at the coal consumption metrics from around the world, you'll notice a small country a few miles to the west of Japan which currently has the distinct honor of being the only country in the world to measure its annual coal usage in billions of tons instead of millions of tons (although to be fair, India is pretty close to breaking into their first Bt). Thats probably what I'd look into first.
There are aiment where leach treatment is suitable, generaly related to restoring blood flow. So mostly frostbite, transplantation and reconnecting of severed tissue (eq. an accidentally cut off ear, etc.)
There are problems where fossil fuels are suitable, related to how dense and stable they are to store. So mostly emergency power and/or remote areas (eq. power's down in a remote mountain village, etc.)
Is there a way of designing safe nuclear plants in safe places in the world and efficiently exporting that energy to other parts within that same region?
Thank you for your answers. I know v little on the subject but am a big believer in the inherent power that nuclear generates and its’ cost effectiveness.
Once you're past the distance where transmitting electrical power is feasible, you would probably have to store the energy chemically. In principle you could charge gigantic banks of lithium batteries and then ship the batteries, but that would require infeasible (probably ludicrous) amounts of lithium, and lithium batteries are a pretty inefficient way to chemically store energy.
Alternatively, it probably isn't cost-effective with current technology, but on a fundamental level, you could use a nuclear reactor to power a system that chemically recombined atmospheric CO2 and water back into hydrocarbon fuels. Unlike fossil-derived hydrocarbons, these hydrocarbons would be carbon-neutral since you'd be sourcing all the carbon from the same atmosphere that it would eventually be dumped back into. This is probably going to make sense for things like vehicles, aircraft, rockets, etc. long before it makes sense for power generation, but there are definite benefits. We already have all the necessary technology to burn hydrocarbons, meaning that any improvements in synthesizing hydrocarbon fuels can potentially eliminate the need to switch these things over to batteries or whatnot. Which may be extremely helpful if we run into serious resource constraints over lithium, or if we grow increasingly concerned with the environmental byproducts of lithium battery production.
It is feasible to transmit electrical power over far greater distances than most people imagine. For reference Barcelona to Moscow is a 3,000 km flight.
Sort of, but not really. Asimov worried about us losing the knowledge of nuclear power, and whilst there's a little of that what's really lead to its demise is that as we've learnt more about what's needed to build and operate it over the years it's become less and less viable.
Nuclear seems like the best hope for humanity, really a shame people are so afraid of it. Although, I guess the fear is justified given how many disasters there have been.
https://phys.org/news/2011-05-nuclear-power-world-energy.htm... casts doubt on the future of Nuclear growing anywhere near enough to be a best-hope; scaling it up to world energy production of 15TW seems infeasible - burning through the available Uranium supplies in ~5 years - even scaling it up to 1TW would stretch many resources used in nuclear reactor construction such as rare elements.
These arguments are silly. It would be like arguing against renewables based on tech from half a century ago.
But fearmongering and people being incapable of understanding just how harmful coal is even in comparison to the worst nuclear disasters (which people frequently overestimate the harm from) has lead to significant regulations and cuts in funding, to the point where you're arguing about tech from the 70s.
There's tons of promising research, and without all of the fear, we would not be talking about uranium based BWR. We would have entire other classes of fuel, and some of the Gen4 designs that have been researched could burn all actinides.
You can create nuclear power from a lot more than just uranium.
I'm opposed to the construction of new nuclear plants (still open to possibility of new fusion plants at some in the future) but from an environmental standpoint it makes far more sense to maintain the existing nuclear plants - at least for now.
The biggest drawbacks of nuclear power (expensive and slow plant construction) are off the table with existing plants! Hardening existing plants against possible future catastrophe is probably far cheaper in both economic and human terms than new coal plan construction.
Japan already does pretty good job (relatively speaking) with solar power, but it could do much better with the money it will spend on new coal plants if it built more wind power and fixed up existing nuclear plants.
> I'm opposed to the construction of new nuclear plants
The technology involved in nuclear plants has evolved tremendously, both in terms of efficiency and in terms of safety, but the technology of the new generation is fundamentally different.
> The biggest drawbacks of nuclear power (expensive and slow plant construction) are off the table with existing plants!
Old plants use outdated designs. Nobody would tolerate the 1972 Internet infrastructure nowadays, and yet Chernobyl was created that year, and is still in use.
The main reason old plants stick around instead of being replaced is that Greenpeace and Green parties influence each other into lobbying against building correct reactors.
Take Superphénix: a French Gen IV reactor started construction twelve years before the Chernobyl accident. Its design is still considered next-gen and highly favorable today.
Activists literally fired rocket-propelled grenades at it while it was being built. It got so bad that they had to shut it down.
They tried building a similar Gen IV reactor recently, ASTRID, that improved tremendously even compared to the advanced Superphénix, and it got cancelled six months ago because of lobbies.
So all that remains are old plants… designs that were essentially initial drafts meant to be replaced by better technology, but that never gets shut down because every replacement gets lobbied against.
Those old designs have awful properties, so yeah, we get Chernobyl and Fukushima. We would have had neither if people had let replace the oldest generation. But because of Greenpeace, people died, and fear rose, when all this was unnecessary.
The primary failure at Fukushima was a sea wall too low for the tsunami that occurred. How is the reactor design relevant?
Also regarding Superphénix, your telling of this seems a bit biased - The rocket attack occurred in 1982 and it was shut down in 1997 by the prime minister due to excessive cost.
As for whether fast breeder reactors are 'still considered next-gen and highly favorable' see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superphénix
"a group of 80 physicists from the Lyon Physics Institute wrote an open letter about the risks of breeder technology, and in February 1975, about 400 scientists signed their name to an expanded letter."
Also (the surviving units at) Chernobyl have been shut down for several years.
Dead Comment
In Japan and wait for the next major earthquakes?
> Hardening existing plants against possible future catastrophe is probably far cheaper
Probably not. That's the case in Japan where several reactors will never be restarted again.
A tsunami that killed over 10,000 people caused some minor problems. That’s like saying you got a puncture in a multi car pileup.
These plants cost insane capital to get running and mismanagement can cause serious problems, so economic pressures tightening belts (or just greed for higher profits) is a constant force fighting against safety... Newer reactor designs contain much safer critical failure outcomes that could allow them to safely operate - even within the constant profit pressure of modern culture.
1. General information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_Yankee_Nuclear_Power_P...
List of articles from VTDigger on the topic: https://vtdigger.org/tag/decommission-vermont-yankee/
That's 20/day dead from pollution just in USA.
Nuclear disasters are verified at about 2400 deaths over 41 years. Around 1/week.
Yeah ... crazy hard to make a safe energy source.
1: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-other-reason-...
2:
0 deaths for 3 Mile Island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_Nuclear_Gene...
142 deaths for chernobyl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster
2203 deaths for Fukushima (2202 of which were due to the evacuation itself) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disa...
PS: the "more per day than nuclear ever" bit comes from The Uninhabitable Earth: Life After Warming by David Wallace
https://www.ozy.com/flashback/230000-died-in-a-dam-collapse-...
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g...
Also interesting, between 2000 and 2010, before Fukushima, Japan had a large increase in coal use.
Deleted Comment
Germany turned to coal? It didn't happen. Germany actually turned to renewables.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Germany#...
https://www.wired.com/story/germany-rejected-nuclear-poweran...
Yes, if they've always been using coal, I guess technically they didn't "turned to" coal, but how is it better?
Meanwhile neighboring France, with its 70%+ energy generated from nuclear, generates about half as much CO2 per capita as Germany. Right now, and in the foreseeable future.
For every MW of nuclear that was turned down, a MW of natgas was turned up.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#/media/File:...
If you happen to take a peek at the coal consumption metrics from around the world, you'll notice a small country a few miles to the west of Japan which currently has the distinct honor of being the only country in the world to measure its annual coal usage in billions of tons instead of millions of tons (although to be fair, India is pretty close to breaking into their first Bt). Thats probably what I'd look into first.
Is there a way of designing safe nuclear plants in safe places in the world and efficiently exporting that energy to other parts within that same region?
Thank you for your answers. I know v little on the subject but am a big believer in the inherent power that nuclear generates and its’ cost effectiveness.
Alternatively, it probably isn't cost-effective with current technology, but on a fundamental level, you could use a nuclear reactor to power a system that chemically recombined atmospheric CO2 and water back into hydrocarbon fuels. Unlike fossil-derived hydrocarbons, these hydrocarbons would be carbon-neutral since you'd be sourcing all the carbon from the same atmosphere that it would eventually be dumped back into. This is probably going to make sense for things like vehicles, aircraft, rockets, etc. long before it makes sense for power generation, but there are definite benefits. We already have all the necessary technology to burn hydrocarbons, meaning that any improvements in synthesizing hydrocarbon fuels can potentially eliminate the need to switch these things over to batteries or whatnot. Which may be extremely helpful if we run into serious resource constraints over lithium, or if we grow increasingly concerned with the environmental byproducts of lithium battery production.
A 1,100 kV link in China was completed in 2019 over a distance of 3,300 km with a power of 12 GW.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current
It is feasible to transmit electrical power over far greater distances than most people imagine. For reference Barcelona to Moscow is a 3,000 km flight.
Another possible bonus of your scenario could be https://phys.org/news/2020-01-chemists-product-nuclear-power... wherin the use of an depleted uranium catalyst could be plugged somewhere into that to produce ethylene.
In general, build a not-fancy light water reactor away from the ocean and major fault lines.
We have the most experience with LWRs, and they are pretty safe except for the impact of major natural disasters.
There are other reactor designs, but we really need more experience with them.
Time and money has ran out for nuclear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Ad...
There are significant energy losses if all you want on the other end is electricity. But not so bad if you're burning it for heat.
In theory a nuclear reactor could produce both electricity and heat to produce synthetic fuels, making it more cost effective than renewables.
For electricity only it looks like renewables are significantly cheaper however.
How wrong I was! This is the exact example he uses in his books.
isn't it because of some unnecessary regulation and some materials technology being behind.
nuclear fission is the second densest form of energy, It is absolutely worthwhile to improve it for the future humanity, IMHO.
I think most countries and national bodies are just giving up on nuclear all together.
But fearmongering and people being incapable of understanding just how harmful coal is even in comparison to the worst nuclear disasters (which people frequently overestimate the harm from) has lead to significant regulations and cuts in funding, to the point where you're arguing about tech from the 70s.
There's tons of promising research, and without all of the fear, we would not be talking about uranium based BWR. We would have entire other classes of fuel, and some of the Gen4 designs that have been researched could burn all actinides.
You can create nuclear power from a lot more than just uranium.