After the terrible treatment I received as a Volkswagen TDI customer, I will never buy another VW. Period. They fraudulently sold me a car, then managed to finangle their way out of any financial restitution by putting up not only extensive hurdles for customers who wanted to opt for restitution instead of return, they then penalized customers who experienced delays due to their internal system faults by simply rejecting applications for restitution that were even a little bit out of spec.
not sure what your problem was, i had two TDI's and did buybacks for both and, though it took a while, the experience was pleasant and the offer was generous.
The problem was I couldn't do a buyback due to my life situation - I was not in a place, at the time, where I could just give up the car and go get another one without major disruption. Think days off work. So I opted for restitution.
Owned a 2001 Jetta. The number of parts I had to replace became more than the cars worth. I will never own a VW anything because of the terrible reliability.
Before I gave up owning a car all together a year ago, I used to take my car to an independent car mechanic. He is also the singer in one of Norways most popular rock band, The Dum Dum Boys. Compared to the car mechanics working for the car brands, he does not seems to hold any dirty details back. He claims that new german cars needs to have a lot more parts replaced more often now than they used to do 20 years ago. The cars have not become more expensive either. Wires, cables, casks, everything breaks faster than it used to not that many years ago. If you thought the car industry have become more disruptive and automated, you probably have to think again.
Heh, yeah people complain about that generation of cars from VAG quite a bit.
I had a MK4 Golf with the 1.8T that I raced every month for a few years and also drove to work. It broke a couple times, but wasn't unreliable. I think this was partly because I did preventative maintenance.
I think - the motors were fine for the MK4s, but everything around them had one problem or another.
I have a 2015 Jetta TDI and opted to keep it and get the payout and modifications. I had no issues at all, I got paid the specified amount at the specified milestones and got a rental paid for by VW for the days the car was at the dealer. I've currently got ~110,000 miles on the car and other than a few minor cosmetic interior issues its been good car.
I expect to keep it for another 100K at least and my next car I expect will be electric.
For context my previous car was 2002 Subaru WRX that I put 340,000 miles on, with a top end engine rebuild at ~180k, after a "friend" who borrowed it continued to drive it after the radiator return hose burst and it overheated.
I sent my initial reply in fairly quickly, and got a restitution offer letter back. However, that was only the beginning.
First, they offered to pay half before the modification, then half after the modification. After I got the final final approved offer, it was only all after the modification.
The modification wasn't possible right away, because they hadn't decided what to do yet. Eventually they decided to offer a fix for these engines, and the EPA eventually agreed to allow that fix for my engine. But that was the better part of a year. When the fixes were begun to be rolled out, the initial reports were dismal, with reports of engines running rough and bad performance. The message began to be "don't let them touch your car." I decided to wait until at least the second half of the window for modifications to be performed so that the bugs could get thoroughly worked out.
Meanwhile, life got more complicated. I started moving from one state to another, and that meant three homes in two years. Since I couldn't register the car in the new state until after the repair was done, I needed to extend my registration in the old state.
After the second move, I was able to complete the process, and the approved modification was available. I went to complete the process, but due to moving to the new state I needed to re-do all of the original paperwork, and I needed to send a letter stating what I had done.
They restarted my application process twice.
There was a fault in their system that left my application in an inconsistent state, resulting in errors in the court settlement web site. I spent time on the phone working through that, with multiple people.
At one point I needed to print out a dozen sheets and mail them in. While not a big deal, I don't normally print stuff, so getting a printer located and working is just another hurdle.
After another set of failures in getting the system sorted, they actually requested that I fax in documents.
FAX.
And after all that, I missed the deadline for the dealer work by 2 days.
My appeal to their 3-member appeal review board was filed within the 15-day window, but it was denied.
Interesting (and great that the bigger manufacturers are starting to come through with their electric offerings) but the price:range ratio doesn't seem great compared to the Tesla model 3?
It's hard to be objective with all of the strongly pro- and anti-Tesla nonsense flying around, but I've had a sneaking suspicion for a while that once the market matures a little (with eg Audi, VW, Porsche all offering their first-gen EVs) Tesla's offerings will be seen as more revolutionary (or at least, taken less for granted) than they currently are...
The least expensive Model 3 in Germany is 57.900 EUR with 540km (wltp cycle) of range – part of this is that they've only been exporting the high margin long-range AWD models. The more expensive "First Edition" id.3 will have approx 425km of range for 35.000 > x < 40.000EUR. Even taking the top end of that range, it seems the $:km ratio is in favour of the VW. If the First Edition battery is equal in size to the yet-to-be-released 58kWh battery, it seems the efficiency is at least comparable to the M3 as well.
Plus, you probably get a better interior. Certainly a better built one…
Looking at Tesla Germany, Standard Range Plus is 44.5k euros, which includes partial premium interior and autopilot. The SR+ Model 3 is price competitive with Kia/Hyundai, so I'm skeptical that VW will be able to pull some rabbit out of a hat and change that.
If the interior is anything like my Tiguan... I would greatly prefer my Model 3 any day. I don't think the ID3 is going to come with a premium interior... haven't seen any photos of it so I could be wrong.
I dont get people keep complaining about Tesla interior. I love the interior on my model 3 much better than any car I have been in. Can you list some of the things you dont like
All you really have to do is look at the current e-Tron and iPace efficiency numbers-- the Model X, which is a heavier vehicle with a smaller battery, goes farther.
Also i would assume that the non-Tesla offerings will be cheaper.
What i saw about the automobile industry ist that they are very good in building factories/supply chain's where they can produce as cheap as possible. The setup of such a supply chain takes years but when it's there i assume that the prices will be lower than Tesla's. (Also so far i know Tesla need's still a relativ big amout of work hours per car, 60h compare to 30h industry standard)
I think Tesla was smart to appeal initially to the European automotive fans. I've bought German all my life but my next car will be a Tesla.
Think I think the made-in-America customers will come around.
I think the Asian car fans will be a little trickier because of the price/quality proposition. Although it seems like the Prius fans are already coming over.
Might want to look into the service situation before buying a Tesla.
Seems to be an area that never gets properly talked about and we've seen examples posted of people waiting up to a year for repairs. That's completely unacceptable.
My opinion is that the best way to cut through all the opinionating is to actually buy an EV. For most people, buying an EV is still a far-away, abstract notion so I wouldn't put much stock in their opinions until they spend the money.
This is great news and now we need them to deliver (and not delay/back out). I hope they sell a ton. We really need an entrenched player to fully commit to selling EVs. If VW goes all-in, everyone else will have to follow suit. Tesla needs to keep the pressure on.
I love my Volkswagen but I'm instantly put off the id3. I'll wait for an electric Jetta or more likely run what I have into the ground to avoid the new cockpit nonsense everything has now
Which hovers around 5000-6000 / week. The "2018" bloomberg model 3 tracker stays pretty up to date, and also still falls right inline with numbers they release at the ends of their fiscal quarters:
Also the EU mandate to have a fleet average of 95g of CO2/km by 2021 (or, alternatively, large fines). We're seeing all the European manufacturers, including those that don't sell much/at all in the US and therefore CA, doubling down on EVs because they're an easy way to have a big affect on the average.
i agree the comptetion between established players is required and hopefully leads to solutions to the main problem keeping many people in ICE over EV: range
The only regret with pre-ordering a Nissan Leaf before release was that the company Nissan hired to run the pre-orders fucked it up. People who ordered up to six months after we did got their cars months before we did.
But when we were finally given a hard date, it showed up on that date, and we've been happy with it since. The only reason I don't jump in line for the ID is because my wife and I are really hoping they build that concept van to replace the '81 VW Westfalia we've got now. They announce that for pre-order, and it's "shut and take my money" time.
If you pre-order a bad game, you're maybe out $60 if your store doesn't let you refund the product. If you pre-order a bad car, the out of pocket cost is many times higher than that.
I'm completely clueless about electric engines so I was wondering if, besides range, there are other attributes one should look for in an electric car like HP and that kind of stuff? In other words, are all electric motors so similar that range is the only differentiator?
Good question, and the answer is a resounding "consider more attributes".
You should take into consideration the (sustained) top speed, and acceleration (for electrics, that tends to range from great to decent for 0...60, but fall off rather quickly beyond that). Those two are limited by on-board power electronics, by battery & engine cooling capacity (which is the main limiting factor in all electrics I've seen so far), and by the motor power rating.
Unlike the typical ICEs, for a short while you can over-load electric motors by quite a bit beyond the continuous rated power - say, for quick & safe over-taking - but the sustained top speed of electric vehicles isn't all that great.
The other important factors are: how quickly you can re-charge the vehicle, and how long will the battery pack last (or conversely, how quickly will it degrade), including the manufaturer's warranty, if any.
As the electric motors are also used for regenerative braking, the efficiency of energy recovery is a moderately important consideration, especially for start-stop city style traffic. Sadly I haven't yet seen that information published for any car.
Charging plug compatibility and charging station availability - for fastest charging you want to be able to use the car's native standard.
Lastly, as with any car, safety ratings (battery pack protection is a big item here) and towing capacity.
Range
Battery Cooling technology, steer clear of air cooled
Charging rates
Weight
Cd
From my view weight is the big limiting factor in EV efficiency at lower speeds and Cd becomes more important as you increase your speed to highway numbers and higher.
Engines are important as the company Munro pointed out during their tear downs. They stated that Tesla had by far the most impressive EV motor they have seen based around how they implemented the magnets and their inverter work finally coupled to a battery solution that proved naysayers wrong.
That out of the way, I would not fret over motor differences. It all comes down to, if it passes the initial three features I listed about then concern yourself with, do you like how it looks, how it drives, and does it fit in your lifestyle. In no shape or form think you will save money parting with your current vehicle for a new one however if you already were decided to change cars and EV may fit your lifestyle.
There is a good possibility many EVs will be rear drive which will greatly improve driving dynamics, the ease of packaging opens up many options
No. Electrical engines are even more dissimilar between them than diesel and gas engines. They can have different geometries, one can put them in wheels or power any or all of the axles. Traction designs all have very good starting torque, which translates to good 0-60 acceleration. The most wonderful thing about them is that you don't need a gearbox. The limiting factor is the battery. The power electronics and the motor are pretty much a solved problem.
The amount and rate of energy that can be delivered from the battery to the wheels probably depends more on the power electronics than the motor. Obviously the motor will overheat at some point, but I would bet the power converters and interconnects would fail much earlier except on very high performance models.
so I worked in the automobile industry in a prominent company working with all prominent car manifacturers, and I was one of the PMM experts there (the dynamic electrical motors).
By far the best PMM's worldwide are made by Kessler, Germany. They are way ahead of everyone else, but they can only manifacture about 200 units per year. Hand-made, like a Ferrari. Many of these PMM's for Formula 1. All the good german carmakers know about these very well, the prices, principles and tricks. They are far ahead of most others, including Tesla.
What Tesla did well was bringing parts of this technology to market. In record time.
I like that electric cars are starting to have smaller hoods. With the battery located at the bottom of the car and the electric motors at or in the wheels, there is no need for a long hood.
Just switching to electric will not solve our mobility problems. Cars need to get smaller and lighter and we need fewer of them, not more.
I'm looking forward to what's on the horizon in the european L7e category (up to 450kg w/out battery), for example the Microlino. DLR is also doing some interesting research in this area with their NGC Safe Light Regional Vehicle (SLRV). They recently did some crash tests with promising results:
https://www.dlr.de/dlr/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10122/333_r...
Is there a reason to start this new model name vs simply calling it the 2020 "eGolf"? Is the eGolf basically a hack design and the ID3 a true, ground-up electric design?
That would be my interpretation. That the traditional Golfs and Tiguans will continue to be delivered with ICE/Hybrid drivetrains but that any pure EV model of an ICE car would always be a compromised design because of how radically different they can be built. So even if they make the ID look like a golf in the body it’s a radically different car, and if they still make the golf they shouldn’t be selling this under the same name. As the article says, the interior will have much more space for example. Calling it eGolf might be confusing, and might be underselling it.
From the article:
"The ID.3 will be the first car built on the Volkswagen Group’s “modular electric toolkit” or “MEB” — a technological platform for EVs that includes the battery pack and motor."
That, and this not the only planned vehicle based on this platform, so "eGolf" would be a bit restrictive.
I would say a lot of it comes from it being a completely different platform. Most likely there will have a line of cars with similar names kind of like BMW's i series that will encompass all the electric vehicles made on the platform.
Volkswagen is positioning this as the 3rd era of the company. They started with the beetle, then the golf has been the backbone of the company for 40 years, and now the ID.3 is going to be their core identity.
Readit News
Never. Again.
I own a 2009 rabbit and have no faced any issues beyond routine maintenance. Guess I should knock on wood.
I had a MK4 Golf with the 1.8T that I raced every month for a few years and also drove to work. It broke a couple times, but wasn't unreliable. I think this was partly because I did preventative maintenance.
I think - the motors were fine for the MK4s, but everything around them had one problem or another.
The motor is going into my next car... :)
Dead Comment
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/29/vw-condemne...
I have a 2015 Jetta TDI and opted to keep it and get the payout and modifications. I had no issues at all, I got paid the specified amount at the specified milestones and got a rental paid for by VW for the days the car was at the dealer. I've currently got ~110,000 miles on the car and other than a few minor cosmetic interior issues its been good car.
I expect to keep it for another 100K at least and my next car I expect will be electric.
For context my previous car was 2002 Subaru WRX that I put 340,000 miles on, with a top end engine rebuild at ~180k, after a "friend" who borrowed it continued to drive it after the radiator return hose burst and it overheated.
First, they offered to pay half before the modification, then half after the modification. After I got the final final approved offer, it was only all after the modification.
The modification wasn't possible right away, because they hadn't decided what to do yet. Eventually they decided to offer a fix for these engines, and the EPA eventually agreed to allow that fix for my engine. But that was the better part of a year. When the fixes were begun to be rolled out, the initial reports were dismal, with reports of engines running rough and bad performance. The message began to be "don't let them touch your car." I decided to wait until at least the second half of the window for modifications to be performed so that the bugs could get thoroughly worked out.
Meanwhile, life got more complicated. I started moving from one state to another, and that meant three homes in two years. Since I couldn't register the car in the new state until after the repair was done, I needed to extend my registration in the old state.
After the second move, I was able to complete the process, and the approved modification was available. I went to complete the process, but due to moving to the new state I needed to re-do all of the original paperwork, and I needed to send a letter stating what I had done.
They restarted my application process twice.
There was a fault in their system that left my application in an inconsistent state, resulting in errors in the court settlement web site. I spent time on the phone working through that, with multiple people.
At one point I needed to print out a dozen sheets and mail them in. While not a big deal, I don't normally print stuff, so getting a printer located and working is just another hurdle.
After another set of failures in getting the system sorted, they actually requested that I fax in documents.
FAX.
And after all that, I missed the deadline for the dealer work by 2 days.
My appeal to their 3-member appeal review board was filed within the 15-day window, but it was denied.
It's hard to be objective with all of the strongly pro- and anti-Tesla nonsense flying around, but I've had a sneaking suspicion for a while that once the market matures a little (with eg Audi, VW, Porsche all offering their first-gen EVs) Tesla's offerings will be seen as more revolutionary (or at least, taken less for granted) than they currently are...
Plus, you probably get a better interior. Certainly a better built one…
Model 3 comes at around 45k for the 550km and includes autopilot and an amazing interior.
Think I think the made-in-America customers will come around.
I think the Asian car fans will be a little trickier because of the price/quality proposition. Although it seems like the Prius fans are already coming over.
Seems to be an area that never gets properly talked about and we've seen examples posted of people waiting up to a year for repairs. That's completely unacceptable.
Deleted Comment
I've seen tesla model s cars with 300,000 miles on the odometer.
You have to think in terms of range * cycles.
They plan to reach 300K annual production capacity by 2021, IIRC. This is less than Tesla' _current_ run rate for the Model 3.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/
I don't feel that this is a problem because of California laws regarding EVs, forcing every manufacturer to sell more EVs every year.
https://i2i.org/california-ev-mandates-fail/
i agree the comptetion between established players is required and hopefully leads to solutions to the main problem keeping many people in ICE over EV: range
But when we were finally given a hard date, it showed up on that date, and we've been happy with it since. The only reason I don't jump in line for the ID is because my wife and I are really hoping they build that concept van to replace the '81 VW Westfalia we've got now. They announce that for pre-order, and it's "shut and take my money" time.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_I.D._Buzz
http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/future-cars/official-the-vw-...
A car you can at least get a bit sooner by taking the gamble of preordering.
You should take into consideration the (sustained) top speed, and acceleration (for electrics, that tends to range from great to decent for 0...60, but fall off rather quickly beyond that). Those two are limited by on-board power electronics, by battery & engine cooling capacity (which is the main limiting factor in all electrics I've seen so far), and by the motor power rating.
Unlike the typical ICEs, for a short while you can over-load electric motors by quite a bit beyond the continuous rated power - say, for quick & safe over-taking - but the sustained top speed of electric vehicles isn't all that great.
The other important factors are: how quickly you can re-charge the vehicle, and how long will the battery pack last (or conversely, how quickly will it degrade), including the manufaturer's warranty, if any.
As the electric motors are also used for regenerative braking, the efficiency of energy recovery is a moderately important consideration, especially for start-stop city style traffic. Sadly I haven't yet seen that information published for any car.
Charging plug compatibility and charging station availability - for fastest charging you want to be able to use the car's native standard.
Lastly, as with any car, safety ratings (battery pack protection is a big item here) and towing capacity.
From my view weight is the big limiting factor in EV efficiency at lower speeds and Cd becomes more important as you increase your speed to highway numbers and higher.
Engines are important as the company Munro pointed out during their tear downs. They stated that Tesla had by far the most impressive EV motor they have seen based around how they implemented the magnets and their inverter work finally coupled to a battery solution that proved naysayers wrong.
That out of the way, I would not fret over motor differences. It all comes down to, if it passes the initial three features I listed about then concern yourself with, do you like how it looks, how it drives, and does it fit in your lifestyle. In no shape or form think you will save money parting with your current vehicle for a new one however if you already were decided to change cars and EV may fit your lifestyle.
There is a good possibility many EVs will be rear drive which will greatly improve driving dynamics, the ease of packaging opens up many options
https://www.teslarati.com/teslas-model-3-electric-motor-is-a...
And he isn't gentle on his opinion where they got it wrong, so it doesn't seem to be a puff piece.
By far the best PMM's worldwide are made by Kessler, Germany. They are way ahead of everyone else, but they can only manifacture about 200 units per year. Hand-made, like a Ferrari. Many of these PMM's for Formula 1. All the good german carmakers know about these very well, the prices, principles and tricks. They are far ahead of most others, including Tesla.
What Tesla did well was bringing parts of this technology to market. In record time.
Just switching to electric will not solve our mobility problems. Cars need to get smaller and lighter and we need fewer of them, not more.
I'm looking forward to what's on the horizon in the european L7e category (up to 450kg w/out battery), for example the Microlino. DLR is also doing some interesting research in this area with their NGC Safe Light Regional Vehicle (SLRV). They recently did some crash tests with promising results: https://www.dlr.de/dlr/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10122/333_r...
That, and this not the only planned vehicle based on this platform, so "eGolf" would be a bit restrictive.
Wow how very uncreative, I would be too embarrassed by such blatant copying
model => Id 3 => 3
New name ID3