"We conclude that the daily use of 3 mg melatonin seems to protect the retina and to delay macular degeneration. No significant side effects were observed."
For anyone taking Melatonin as a sleeping aid: The dosages it is being sold at are way too high. Recent studies point to 0.3 mg being the right amount for adults [1].
That dosage (taken over a period of several months every day at the same time) helped me get through a period of insomnia last summer, when basically all the other medications failed or had too strong side effects.
I recall listening to a sleep specialist on a radio show one morning (how's that for citing my sources).
Apparently there are two different methodologies for administering Melatonin. One is to use a higher dose(1mg - 3mg) before sleep (~an hour) as a hypnotic. The other is to take a much lower dose, closer to the 0.3mg you suggested, roughly 4 - 6 hours before the desired bed time.
The latter is used for modifying the circadian rhythm , and fixing problems with sleep wake cycles.
I think the primary takeaway from that show was that people should discuss their sleep problems and treatment with a doctor that specializes in sleep. The treatments and science can be somewhat counter intuitive.
From my recollection the smaller doses as you suggest were always known to be better but they were patented in the US by the institution that found them so only larger 3mg style doses can legally be sold cheaply, hence why most of what you can easily buy is 3mg+.
“Many health food stores are now selling melatonin, to induce sleep and “prevent cancer.” They have taken some information out of context, and don’t realize how dangerous melatonin is. It makes the brain sluggish, causes the sex organs to shrink, and damages immunity by shrinking the thymus gland. It is the hormone of darkness and winter, and is produced in the pineal gland by any stress which increases adrenalin. Adequate sun light suppresses the formation of melatonin.” -Ray Peat, PhD
"In general, the direct actions of melatonin on the gonads and adnexa of mammals indicate it is an important agent for maintaining optimal reproductive physiology"
- https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/14/4/7231
When I look at other papers in this space I do find some adverse responses in hamster nuts when given melatonin injections (but not when it is administered using an implant).
At this point I did not want to research the other claims in the quote anymore. Instead, perhaps I can ask you: Do you know of any solid research that backs these (frankly very strong and contrary to everything else I've read) claims? If not, why did you choose to say this?
> administering melatonin prior to exposure to UV radiation increases cell survival and reduces oxidative damage. Topical melatonin applied to skin 15 minutes prior to exposure to UV radiation completely prevented skin redness (erythema) in a small randomized double-blind study of human subjects
This isn't necessarily good news. Sun burn is your body's way of reducing skin cancer. When your body detects too much exposure to sun, it kills the cells that are most likely to have suffered DNA damage. The soreness and inflammation are a result of that mechanism. Disabling that mechanism would cause skin cancer.
But maybe melatonin promotes DNA repair and thus the cells don't need to be killed. More research needed :-)
Are you saying this as a medical research professional or just spitballing? Because the article send to be straightforwardly claiming that melatonin is reducing oxidative damage, not just disabling the visible effects. One of the referenced sources is entitled, "Melatonin as a major skin protectant: from free radical scavenging to DNA damage repair," which seems to be saying that the "more research needed" has already been done, like 10 years ago.
Free radical damage is not the main mechanism of UV-induced DNA damage. The main mechanism is direct dimerization as the photo-excited electron relaxes.
This is what worries me about sunscreen. This is an entirely non scientific concern, but sunscreen is as much of a business as antiperspirant and shampoo, and both of those things disrupt normal endocrine rhythm, by definition.
Like even if the mechanism of action is perfectly sound, how does your body adjust with that over many years?
Tangentially I'm interested to know whether taking melatonin for long periods of time (years) reduces its effectiveness. I've been taking it for nearly a year but I've heard stories about how you need to keep increasing the dose to get the same effect.
I have chronic insomnia, I had it all my life. I used to use melatonin but yes over time it lost its effect and melatonin is not one of those drugs you can just take more to sleep. It has a very precise dosage and if you take more it doesn't make you more sleepy.
If you have chronic insomnia, you need to solve the root cause. In my case it is anxiety, and currently I'm trying to solve my anxiety and my sleep quality improves as a corrolary.
I take doxylamine succinate 5-10 mg about an hour before bed and find that it helps with sleep much more than melatonin, which only seemed to help with a very time-limited form of tiredness (it wore off and I'd wake up).
Still, even the antihistamine (sold as a sleep aid) can't do all the work when something big is going down the next day. Like a meeting with a big client requiring a lot of travel. A big stressor must be addressed.
In that case though, I find that writing 1000 to 2000 words about everything that could possibly go wrong gets me to the point where I can sleep like a baby. Precisely because I'm attaking the source of the anxiety. Most nights though it's easier just to do some basic organization and scheduling and take 1/3 of a little pill.
In the morning I do often take 50-100mg Jet Alert to blunt the fade-in. It's way easier to feel comfortable taking caffeine when fully rested.
An experiment in progress always, but at 9h average sleep (excluding waking times as recorded on FitBit) I managed to go 10 months between illness, as someone with an autoimmune condition (sjogrens). My previous record was 4 months. On top of that, no more depression. My subjective day ratings have gone through the roof. I have to laugh when I'm working with 10 hours of sleep and literally cannot find a single thing to be sour about in my entire life condition (the journaling template I use takes me through this). Plenty of problems, just more resources to work with. Sleep is worth the chase.
Edit: While I'm talking about anxiety, I have been testing L-theanine recently and so far it seems to lower the anxiety floor a little bit. There's nothing like getting your stressors sorted directly, but sometimes things are more complex than that, and if supplements can help, great.
I too suffered from insomnia regularly for most of my life (for at least 25+ years that I can remember) and just have managed to figure it out this past year. The major things for me have been light therapy in the morning, carefully watching my diet (certain foods cause mild digestive problems but this seems to really mess with my sleep), meditation and trying to control inflammation (again, partly through being very careful with my diet, partly by taking supplements and taking ibuprofin on rare occasion). The difference has been absolutely phenomenal. Your entire life changes for the better once you can sleep properly on a consistent basis. Glad to hear you have found something that is working for you.
Melatonin works mildly well for me for a few days, but quickly stops working again, which is unfortunate. I will admit I also have some anxiety issues I need to work on.
For better or worse, a low dose of diphenhydramine hcl (12mg) has continued working for me for over a decade without needing to up the dose. My personal experience as far as habit forming goes: I only take it on work nights, and sleep just fine on weekends, or if I'm on vacation. My main issue with sleeping is the specific times I need to do it. If I'm able to sleep when I'm sleepy, and wake up when I'm not, then I don't need any medication. Unfortunately, that doesn't fit in with a typical work schedule.
I don't have specific knowledge to counter this, but am surprised. It implies that humans would need more melatonin over the course of their lives, yet they produce less and less as they age...
what i have found is when i take 3mg of melatonin i sleep well. When i take more than 6mg of melatonin i get into deeper sleep and sleep less hours feeling refreshed as if i slept longer
It lost effectiveness after a few months for me. On top of that, it gives me very restless legs, to the point that it can actually be harder to fall asleep :/
Restless legs is not yet a solved problem, but supplementation with either iron, niacin or both seems to help most suffers.
AFAIK, no clinical deficiency of either is observed (with iron it will be in your blood chemistry, with Niacin it would manifest as Pelagra if observed).
Do your own reading about them. Both iron and niacin can be overdosed.
From my experience, use only pure niacin (nicotinic acid), rather than nictoinamide or inositol forms (the latter apparently completely useless but still marketed). Also, avoid the time release forms. But ... this is the internet, I might as well be a dog. Do your own research. Woof.
Indeed melatonin supplementation causes tolerance development. The correct dose to avoid it is 0.3 mg [1].
Nevertheless I'm glad pharmacies sell pills with much higher dosage - you can just buy the 2-10mg pills, crush them and take the dose you need. I bet they would sell 0.3 mg pills for the same high price if they knew.
This is melatonin, so it's not really dangerous, but you should be careful with breaking up pills that aren't supposed to be broken in two or more. The amount of active ingredient is not evenly distributed in the pills, so you're not really halving the dosage.
For some reason melatonin is sold i boxes of 30x2mg for $25, and you need a prescription. It's completely ludicrous. You're only allowed to bring a months worth across the border. It's illegal to order by mail. /rant
What a waste. You can buy premade 300mcg melatonin pills for $0.03/pill (Sundown Naturals on iHerb), so the time you spend measuring melatonin yourself is just wasted time.
This isn't true. Even if your experience is contrary to what I'm about to say.
Melatonin isn't more effective by increasing the dose. Especially past 3mg. The body doesn't register anything past 3mg. But you also need to keep in mind that the placebo effect is strong.
Anecdotally, I am taking it for years and haven't noticed any reduced effectiveness. Effectiveness increased when I reduced the dose to 0.3 mg. and started taking it several hours before sleep.
https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th... is pretty much a required reading on melatonin, as well as https://www.gwern.net/Melatonin. Neither discuss tolerance at length unfortunately.
I take Natrol brand Melatonin Fast Dissolve Tablets, Strawberry flavor, 3mg, splitting them in half (for 1.5 mg) and put it under my tongue for sublingual absorption.
I once asked about melatonin in a health food shop and was told it’s illegal in the UK!
The seems odd in a country where (for example) you can buy codeine pills over-the-counter, so now I’m curious about why it was banned, considering it’s reported to have few side effects?
You can easily buy it on eBay. A USA company which has local dropshipping sells it, and manages to skirt the regulations.
My understanding is that it’s not sold over the counter (otc) is because it’s a hormone. The class of drugs isn’t available otc.
Also: I think many people use it in completely the wrong quantities and in the wrong way. I’ve heard of people in countries where it’s legal giving their kids 30mg to get them to sleep.. “it’s otc so it must be safe”. I don’t blame the NHS
When I moved to Berlin and found I couldn’t get paracetamol, ibuprofen, or aspirin in the supermarkets, a local told me the “it’s otc so it must be safe” attitude had caused people to overdose on them.
It's not illegal as such, it just not licensed and no drug company has bothered to go through the process to get it licensed in the UK. You can get it on prescription in certain rare circumstances.
Apparently, it was previously available in health food shops (like Holland & Barrett), as in many other countries, but was banned around 1995 and is now considered a prescription-only medicine.
The cynical answer is that sleep medications (and I mean the more highly scheduled varieties) are among the biggest pharmacological money spinners. Melatonin is cheap and unpatentable (although there was several attempts at melatonin mimetics, e.g. agomelatine). It's unfathomable that melatonin is available only on prescription (and has become increasingly hard to obtain). I think the toxicity is close to water... one would be more likely to gag on the number of pills necessary to O.D. and I'm not sure if there's even a single melatonin related death on record.
Weird, where are you that Melatonin is prescription only and difficult to obtain? I Can get it at any drug and grocery store I walk into in a variety of doses.
It’s not permitted to be sold by chemists in the UK. If so it would be an over-the-counter medicine.
Rather, it looks some online chemists skirt around the rules by having an “online doctor” issue you with a prescription. But the UK-based ones I found were very expensive and it is surely cheaper just to import from the US via eBay etc.
According to the article, you may be getting more hair and be less susceptible to sun damaged skin. What isn't clear is whether or not taking melatonin orally at typical dosage (300 mcg to 5 mg) will have those effects in humans. It seems that most of those human studies used topical application, and several of the animal studies used melatonin implants. Also, here is a quote from one of the references (Kleszczynski and Fischer, 2012):
> Regarding clinical application, exogenous melatonin should rather be used topically than orally, since orally administered melatonin appears in rather low levels in the blood due to prominent first-pass degradation in the liver, thus limiting skin access. Topical application might be meaningful, since melatonin can penetrate into the stratum corneum and build there a depot due to its distinct lipophilic chemical structure. Therefore, endogenous intracutaneous melatonin production, together with topically applied exogenous melatonin or metabolites can be expected to represent one of the most potent antioxidative defense systems against UV-induced skin aging.
>Melatonin administration has been found to increase hair growth in a variety of mammals
>In a randomized double-blind study of 40 women with hair loss, melatonin solution applied to the scalp increased hair growth significantly relative to placebo
Seems like a positive. The article is suggesting that by helping regulate the circadian rhythm, the use of melatonin can potentially: extend lifespan, prolong fertility, reduce cancer incidence, reduce obesity and insulin resistance, improve neurological recovery from brain injury, improve skin resistance to damage (such as from UV rays) and increase hair growth.
Unfortunately, this is unlikely to affect male pattern hair loss.
I have heard that the main questionmark is that typical doses are far larger than your body would normally produce, so you can't just assume it's "normal" or "natural".
TLDR: Animals with damaged pineal glands have trouble growing hair. Melatonin supplement helps reverse this. Topical melatonin reduces UV damage to the skin and can promote hair growth.
Nothing is bad in melatonin except the tolerance development. If I wasn't afraid of developing tolerance to endogenous melatonin I would take huge doses of it every evening.
Readit News
https://nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1196/ann...
"We conclude that the daily use of 3 mg melatonin seems to protect the retina and to delay macular degeneration. No significant side effects were observed."
That dosage (taken over a period of several months every day at the same time) helped me get through a period of insomnia last summer, when basically all the other medications failed or had too strong side effects.
[1] http://news.mit.edu/2001/melatonin-1017
Apparently there are two different methodologies for administering Melatonin. One is to use a higher dose(1mg - 3mg) before sleep (~an hour) as a hypnotic. The other is to take a much lower dose, closer to the 0.3mg you suggested, roughly 4 - 6 hours before the desired bed time.
The latter is used for modifying the circadian rhythm , and fixing problems with sleep wake cycles.
I think the primary takeaway from that show was that people should discuss their sleep problems and treatment with a doctor that specializes in sleep. The treatments and science can be somewhat counter intuitive.
[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th...
When I look at other papers in this space I do find some adverse responses in hamster nuts when given melatonin injections (but not when it is administered using an implant).
At this point I did not want to research the other claims in the quote anymore. Instead, perhaps I can ask you: Do you know of any solid research that backs these (frankly very strong and contrary to everything else I've read) claims? If not, why did you choose to say this?
This isn't necessarily good news. Sun burn is your body's way of reducing skin cancer. When your body detects too much exposure to sun, it kills the cells that are most likely to have suffered DNA damage. The soreness and inflammation are a result of that mechanism. Disabling that mechanism would cause skin cancer.
But maybe melatonin promotes DNA repair and thus the cells don't need to be killed. More research needed :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_DNA_damage
Like even if the mechanism of action is perfectly sound, how does your body adjust with that over many years?
If you have chronic insomnia, you need to solve the root cause. In my case it is anxiety, and currently I'm trying to solve my anxiety and my sleep quality improves as a corrolary.
Still, even the antihistamine (sold as a sleep aid) can't do all the work when something big is going down the next day. Like a meeting with a big client requiring a lot of travel. A big stressor must be addressed.
In that case though, I find that writing 1000 to 2000 words about everything that could possibly go wrong gets me to the point where I can sleep like a baby. Precisely because I'm attaking the source of the anxiety. Most nights though it's easier just to do some basic organization and scheduling and take 1/3 of a little pill.
In the morning I do often take 50-100mg Jet Alert to blunt the fade-in. It's way easier to feel comfortable taking caffeine when fully rested.
An experiment in progress always, but at 9h average sleep (excluding waking times as recorded on FitBit) I managed to go 10 months between illness, as someone with an autoimmune condition (sjogrens). My previous record was 4 months. On top of that, no more depression. My subjective day ratings have gone through the roof. I have to laugh when I'm working with 10 hours of sleep and literally cannot find a single thing to be sour about in my entire life condition (the journaling template I use takes me through this). Plenty of problems, just more resources to work with. Sleep is worth the chase.
Edit: While I'm talking about anxiety, I have been testing L-theanine recently and so far it seems to lower the anxiety floor a little bit. There's nothing like getting your stressors sorted directly, but sometimes things are more complex than that, and if supplements can help, great.
For better or worse, a low dose of diphenhydramine hcl (12mg) has continued working for me for over a decade without needing to up the dose. My personal experience as far as habit forming goes: I only take it on work nights, and sleep just fine on weekends, or if I'm on vacation. My main issue with sleeping is the specific times I need to do it. If I'm able to sleep when I'm sleepy, and wake up when I'm not, then I don't need any medication. Unfortunately, that doesn't fit in with a typical work schedule.
Curious if you've tried that?
[1]: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/E4cKD9iTWHaE7f3AJ/melatonin-... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17632668
Still works wonders
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25827521
- https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02011191 (if you follow this to its completed paper it claims there are neurological effects of biotin supplementation in their study group).
AFAIK, no clinical deficiency of either is observed (with iron it will be in your blood chemistry, with Niacin it would manifest as Pelagra if observed).
Do your own reading about them. Both iron and niacin can be overdosed.
From my experience, use only pure niacin (nicotinic acid), rather than nictoinamide or inositol forms (the latter apparently completely useless but still marketed). Also, avoid the time release forms. But ... this is the internet, I might as well be a dog. Do your own research. Woof.
Nevertheless I'm glad pharmacies sell pills with much higher dosage - you can just buy the 2-10mg pills, crush them and take the dose you need. I bet they would sell 0.3 mg pills for the same high price if they knew.
[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th...
For some reason melatonin is sold i boxes of 30x2mg for $25, and you need a prescription. It's completely ludicrous. You're only allowed to bring a months worth across the border. It's illegal to order by mail. /rant
Melatonin isn't more effective by increasing the dose. Especially past 3mg. The body doesn't register anything past 3mg. But you also need to keep in mind that the placebo effect is strong.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17632668
I take Natrol brand Melatonin Fast Dissolve Tablets, Strawberry flavor, 3mg, splitting them in half (for 1.5 mg) and put it under my tongue for sublingual absorption.
The seems odd in a country where (for example) you can buy codeine pills over-the-counter, so now I’m curious about why it was banned, considering it’s reported to have few side effects?
My understanding is that it’s not sold over the counter (otc) is because it’s a hormone. The class of drugs isn’t available otc.
Also: I think many people use it in completely the wrong quantities and in the wrong way. I’ve heard of people in countries where it’s legal giving their kids 30mg to get them to sleep.. “it’s otc so it must be safe”. I don’t blame the NHS
People are strange everywhere.
That said you can import them from outside of the UK since you can import any drug for personal use even without prescription.
Rather, it looks some online chemists skirt around the rules by having an “online doctor” issue you with a prescription. But the UK-based ones I found were very expensive and it is surely cheaper just to import from the US via eBay etc.
> Regarding clinical application, exogenous melatonin should rather be used topically than orally, since orally administered melatonin appears in rather low levels in the blood due to prominent first-pass degradation in the liver, thus limiting skin access. Topical application might be meaningful, since melatonin can penetrate into the stratum corneum and build there a depot due to its distinct lipophilic chemical structure. Therefore, endogenous intracutaneous melatonin production, together with topically applied exogenous melatonin or metabolites can be expected to represent one of the most potent antioxidative defense systems against UV-induced skin aging.
>In a randomized double-blind study of 40 women with hair loss, melatonin solution applied to the scalp increased hair growth significantly relative to placebo
Seems like a positive. The article is suggesting that by helping regulate the circadian rhythm, the use of melatonin can potentially: extend lifespan, prolong fertility, reduce cancer incidence, reduce obesity and insulin resistance, improve neurological recovery from brain injury, improve skin resistance to damage (such as from UV rays) and increase hair growth.
Unfortunately, this is unlikely to affect male pattern hair loss.
Source?
Deleted Comment
But nobody has really identified harm yet.
TLDR: Animals with damaged pineal glands have trouble growing hair. Melatonin supplement helps reverse this. Topical melatonin reduces UV damage to the skin and can promote hair growth.