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Posted by u/hichamin 7 years ago
Ask HN: Finding tech talent is getting harder. It's not a Bay Area problem only
If you're a CTO for a growing startup, this might be a familiar challenge for you.

On top of building the product, finding product engineers is becoming one of the hardest things for a CTO to do in 2019, especially in tech hubs like NY and London due to higher demand and competition.

This problem is no longer exclusive to the Bay Area. Hiring is time-consuming and expensive, and many startups feel that they can’t compete with some of the top salaries and perks offered by deep-pocketed alternatives.

It makes sense to rely on your network to hire the initial few developers, but this approach is not sustainable in the long run.

Job boards are getting crowded. Recruiters are generally worse.

I've read a lot of stories about using recruitment platforms. Few are great, but many are unpleasant. The flaw with many recruitment companies is they don't reliably deliver enough good candidates to build trust.

Asking for profile A and getting profile B is a common frustration. For startups, this tends to be a deal-breaker because hiring the wrong candidate has a significant cost and impact on backlog and team.

Is it that most recruiters or on-demand marketplaces aren't highly technical? Is it that they also suffer from talent shortage?

Remote work has been getting a lot of love in recent years to bypass the talent war. Although it has come a long way, it's still hard to pull off, especially for companies that are trying to do both local and remote but are not remote-first (think infrastructure and payroll primarily).

With that being said. How do startups in hubs currently find great engineers quicker? What's an approach that you have been investing in recently to hire product hackers?

edhowzerblack · 7 years ago
As a developer who has recently been through the hiring process, I think the problem is not a shortage of talent, but rather that companies are awful at hiring. Here are a few of the main issues:

1. Don't limit your potential talent pool to the miserable and the unemployed. In theory, any developer who is currently employed might be interested in leaving their job to work for you. Perhaps you will offer them more money, or perhaps a better quality of (work) life. However, most developers won't bother to talk to you if they already have a job. Why is that? Simple, if they do talk to you, you're going to offer them a homework assignment. You're going to tell them that it shouldn't take more than an hour, but it will actually take two full days to do right. Giving someone a homework assignment isn't a way to woo them away from their current job. So you are left with a candidate pool that consists mostly of people who are desperate enough that they have to agree to jump through your hoops (i.e. unemployed, miserable in their current job, etc.)

2. Don't discard capable people. The average interview begins with a remote code challenge whereby the candidate, who is probably nervous, has to pair program a completely contrived problem with a complete stranger watching them over a webcam. There are tons of developers who are good at coding solutions to real world problems in real world situations but simply don't perform well in this type of situation. This type of scenario is not really assessing a candidate's skills. It's assessing their familiarity with specific contrived interview problems and their ability to perform under duress.

Of course, the points you raised are fair as well. Recruiters are not technical people, they are sales people. You will have to find a good recruiter. They are out there, you just have to find the right ones. But my point is, once you find the good recruiter(s) don't waste the human capital they can being to you by having a terrible interview process. Here is my advice. Once your recruiter has a handful of resumes you like, carve out half a days worth of 30-minute sessions to meet with them at the recruiter's office. Ask them about projects they've worked on. You'll find out much more about what they know and what they're like to work with than you would with the typical remote code challenge. One you narrow the pool down a bit bring them in for on-sites.

Best of luck!

commandlinefan · 7 years ago
I'd estimate (without bothering to sit down and crunch the numbers) I've had a 30% success rate interviewing for programming jobs. I usually get about 2 rejections before I get an acceptance (and, of course, when I get accepted, I stop interviewing). Based on that, I'd be led to conclude that I was a _dismal_ programmer, probably not fit for the industry at all. If there was as tight a tech shortage as they keep insisting there is, I'd expect it would be pretty near impossible to be rejected for a programming job. Yet I find it happens to me with alarming regularity and based on what I read here, I'm not alone. It's almost as if the "talent shortage" is imaginary...
edhowzerblack · 7 years ago
The talent shortage is absolutely imaginary. The hiring process is run by incompetent internal recruiters and competitive developers with Aspergers whose goal is to reject as many people as possible in order to prove that no one is as smart as they are.
fucking_tragedy · 7 years ago
> It's almost as if the "talent shortage" is imaginary...

Talent shortage means that employers can't find workers with the skills the claim they need at the price they want to pay.

lordnacho · 7 years ago
> (and, of course, when I get accepted, I stop interviewing)

Then you only ever have a sequence of rejections ending with a job offer. Of course you will feel terrible if this is your strategy.

Do a few more interviews and you'll find that sometimes you get two or three offers in a row.

mikerah13 · 7 years ago
it is
ebiester · 7 years ago
I got it!

We will hire anyone who sounds good, and fire them within a month if it turns out they're not up to our standards. Then, we will ensure we never get anyone who isn't already employed and anyone just looking for a paycheck or three.

If you heard that even 20% of people were fired within the first month, how likely would you be to take that job?

Note: It's usually called contract to hire. And it just takes the interview stress and pushes it out to 1-6 months.

pllbnk · 7 years ago
I don't have sufficient sample data from my personal experience, however, I conduct job interviews the same way I got interviewed and hired for my last job and my last three hires were and are really good teammates.

I don't ask for coding problems and don't have a strict interview structure. Instead, I try to make a conversation about the candidate and tailor interview around their experience. I also try find similar problems they face that we have and talk about solutions that we apply which helps me see how flexible they are or do they outright reject different viewpoints.

Ultimately, the main goal is finding the people that I would like working with because it trumps pure technical skills in importance. It might not work well where some highly specific and rare skills are required, however it works in average enterprise environment.

The interviewer should be a pretty good conversationalist, though.

akvadrako · 7 years ago
So what? If you are used to freelancing, it's the same thing.

I would prefer that 80% of people are fired in the first month.

blizkreeg · 7 years ago
I'd like to talk more about (1). We do a homework assignment that in fact does takes a few hours, but only for candidates who don't have experience developing in our core stack. If you can code in the languages and frameworks we use, it's a step we bypass. It tells us if they can solve a problem well using the tools and setup of their choice. If we clearly see they did well at this, the on-site can then focus on the more non-coding aspect.

Our on-site interviews are highly contextual and rooted in the real-world where candidates work directly in our codebase. They are reasonable in the things we ask candidates to do (re-factor something, review PRs, implement a small enhancement).

If someone can't code in one of our core languages, it's a tougher assessment since we would have to resort to hypothetical/whiteboard crap (which we hate). How do you assess someone then? We recently had a candidate do a take-home where they didn't do well, and it did save 5-6h of everyone's time and their effort of coming in and being subject to the pressure of the interview.

I'd love to hear counter-opinions on this.

edhowzerblack · 7 years ago
That's nice. If your recruiter called me I would pass unless I happened to be unemployed. And even if I were unemployed, I'd tell your recruiter that I'm interested but I'd prioritize all of the other companies I'm talking to that don't have a homework assignment. If I failed their code challenges, only then would I do your homework assignment. Most developers I know would do the same exact thing. You have to realize that you are NOT the only company the candidate is talking to. In fact, the candidate doesn't even know if they want to work for you. Their recruiter pitched a bunch of companies to them. Your company was one of those. They were like "okay, sure send me over there." Seriously, unless you're a famous company like Google, the candidate never even heard of you. You are one of many places they agreed to let a recruiter send your resume to. Your job is to sell them on why they want to work there, not give them a fucking homework assignment.
karmakaze · 7 years ago
> only for candidates who don't have experience developing in our core stack

If you're looking for top talent it wouldn't be measured against any singular tech stack. I tend to take positions on stacks where I'm unfamiliar, and no I wouldn't complete homework. Employers are competing for the good candidates and should have a process of identifying them without hoops.

mondo9000 · 7 years ago
People willing to spend a few hours of their day doing a "homework assignment" will tilt towards the spectrum of people who have a lot of free time which might not intersect that well with the set of people you want to hire.
wool_gather · 7 years ago
> If you can code in the languages and frameworks we use, it's a step we bypass.

Curious; can you say more about how you judge this? Isn't that sort of the point of the homework in the first place?

isaacaderogba · 7 years ago
This seems to align with my experience, particularly your first point.

For context, I’m working as an Associate Product Manager (so not quite a Product Engineer) but I had applied for a job at a Start-up company that I found extremely interesting. Had an initial interview but didn’t hear back from the company for about a month. I had also sent follow up e-mails about this.

When I eventually did hear back from them, they apologised for their delay but then spun me with a homework assignment that would have taken at least 2 days. Safe to say, I kindly declined.

So yeah, really focus on how you’re recruiting for talent.

xemdetia · 7 years ago
In the US most of the recruiters I've been getting are more at least technically aware but still struggle because they are external. The only true people I have felt like I have had a useful conversation with are companies who have an in-house talent lead as they can generally describe what is going on and can fit you across teams. In my current role I was cross matched successfully and probably would not have pulled the trigger without the company based talent person involved in the process.

The outside recruiting firms I have tried to work with have just been misery by comparison. They either don't know enough about what's going on or clearly don't even understand the position they are offering and it takes like 3 or 4 back and forths to get the real job description and it doesn't even make sense. From the other side once my current role started resourcing from an outside firm the matches were worse and worse and I wonder if it just was because the rep on the other side couldn't talk about our actual company in any meaningful way.

DelightOne · 7 years ago
> There are tons of developers who are good at coding solutions to real world problems in real world situations but simply don't perform well in this type of situation.

What do you propose instead to see whether one can do real world problems in real world situations?

01100011 · 7 years ago
I think he's saying that normally a person isn't coding while someone is watching you. I have no problem implementing a data structure on my own but if you ask me to do it in 15 minutes while you're watching every typo I'll probably freeze up.
edhowzerblack · 7 years ago
You can learn a lot about what a developer knows and is capable of by talking to them about the projects they worked on. Ask them detailed questions about the particular problems they dealt with on projects and how they were solved. Ask them to explain core concepts that are intrinsic to the technologies they've worked with. You can also get a feel for their personality this way.

Remember, we're talking about a screening process. Once they come onsite for the real deal you can throw all sorts of stuff at them.

misterkgb · 7 years ago
If (1) coding homework sucks, and (2) coding live sucks, how do you propose assessing a candidate's coding ability? Take their word for it?

Absent a large open-source repository or other public corpus of work, you generally have to rely on one or the other.

aantix · 7 years ago
This problem is no longer exclusive to the Bay Area. Hiring is time-consuming and expensive, and many startups feel that they can’t compete with some of the top salaries and perks offered by deep-pocketed alternatives.

Offer to teach the developer something.

"Java developers - want to learn Node and React?"

"Rails developers - want to learn Elixir?"

Get one senior person on staff who really knows the stack well and require that they pair program every day with a different member of the team.

Good developers are grateful for the opportunity to level up their skills, contribute, and still make a living.

Andres Camacho in SF has been VP of Engineering and CTO at several startups and is king of this strategy.

BenoitP · 7 years ago
> "Java developers - want to learn Node and React?"

Could be a great incentive, but not to me personally. I'm very invested in the JVM, and I'd rather have that investment used. Something like the following would make me jump ship instantly:

"Java developers - want to use Flink/Spark, some Scala/Clojure? How about 'very fast decision trees' learned online out of a Kafka bus?"

daveFNbuck · 7 years ago
If good developers want to level up their skills, how do you keep the senior developer who you've turned into a tutor happy?
murph · 7 years ago
Mentorship and teaching are also valuable skills. Many good senior engineers would love to focus on them if their employer recognized it as valuable.
aantix · 7 years ago
Fair question.

At least in the above scenario, it was Andres doing the work of initially getting someone up to speed and then pairing the coworkers on an appropriate level feature/bug. He'd stop by and check in to see where they were stuck and would genuinely try and solve the problem.

So, it has to be someone who is a great coder for that stack and enjoys teaching.

If it's done right, other members of the team become good teachers as well, so the initial burden of teaching is lightened.

maxsilver · 7 years ago
> how do you keep the senior developer who you've turned into a tutor happy?

Pay them well, and give them a regular chunk of (paid) time to work on something that furthers their growth / is intellectually stimulating / whatever.

SmellyGeekBoy · 7 years ago
Pay them a lot.
itronitron · 7 years ago
Well, they probably chose the tech stack so they can either help with the hiring process or the training process.
malvosenior · 7 years ago
It's funny because people keep saying this yet I've noticed something... The interview process for developers is about 10X harder than it used to be a decade ago. It used to be that you'd chat with a couple of people about tech, projects you'd worked on... then get a job offer. Now there are multiple rounds spread out over weeks with a massive number of team members, live coding challenges galore, non-tech screening for all manner of sketchy things (culture fit, dedication to diversity...).

I think a lot of this is based on they myth of: A bad hire causes tons more damage than not hiring a good person.

I call BS. To me this is just weak management. It's actually not that difficult to fire someone. If you're in doubt, put an explicit probation period in the contract. I think being able to effectively fire is management 101 but looks like it's becoming a lost art. I'm not sure if this is because people are afraid of confrontation or they're just cargo culting the story they've heard about bad hires.

Easy in, easy out and you'll see your dev shortage problem start to solve itself.

dkersten · 7 years ago
> A bad hire causes tons more damage than not hiring a good person.

I think it is true, but only if you don't identify it quickly and/or don't reassign or fire them as necessary. I'm a firm believer of a holistic and lightweight interview process followed by a trial period. The only way to really understand if someone will work well in the position is to let them give it a try.

creato · 7 years ago
> I call BS. To me this is just weak management. It's actually not that difficult to fire someone. If you're in doubt, put an explicit probation period in the contract. I think being able to effectively fire is management 101 but looks like it's becoming a lost art. I'm not sure if this is because people are afraid of confrontation or they're just cargo culting the story they've heard about bad hires.

It has little to do with confrontation, and a hell of a lot to do with potential legal issues. Maybe this fear is unfounded, but I doubt it.

If you are a small company, you might get away with it on pure luck. If you are a big company, you can average out the cost of "bad firings" with the rest, and see how expensive it is. I'm guessing it's a lot.

weliketocode · 7 years ago
The usual HN refrain here is 'pay more'.

And as a developer in NYC, I'd say this is accurate, but simplifies the problem a bit too much.

Companies like their salary bands. Companies like to hire people at around the same compensation as current employees in the same role with around the same experience.

The problem is that demand has recently gone up and pay should go up with it, but companies are refusing to adjust their bands and greatly increase pay for their current employees across the board.

So, instead of addressing the pay issue head on, we're seeing a few really really bad practices:

- Lose candidates at the offer stage

  - Try to get comp expectations out of the way earlier.

    - Losing candidates to Big Co. for big pay discrepancies is likely tolerable
    - Losing candidates over $20k salary band issues is absolutely unacceptable
  - DO NOT let HR takeover the closing process. 
    - Don't try to give an exploding offer
    - Don't say an offer is 'best and final'
    - The CTO or VP eng should give the offer and 
      make it a priority to close the candidate
- Giving pay increases to current employees only when they have other offers or explicitly ask for it

- Giving regular title bumps to justify pay increases

  - Your 'senior' engineers will be involved with hiring. 
    It's better to give junior/mid-level engineers big raises 
    than title bumps that will make hiring talent more difficult

If these points sound obvious, they're not. As a candidate, I have not seen a single company that follows them.

And this post just addresses issues around compensation. I haven't even begun to touch on being honest around your interview process. But let me put a few questions out there as well:

- How many rounds do you have?

  - 3 is probably a maximum. Never have more than one on-site
- What is your accept rate at each round?

  - the accept rate should increase from round to round
- For testing candidates

  - be very clear about what questions you're asking and why
  - know, objectively, what is considered a pass vs a fail for every question

lwhalen · 7 years ago
I'd like to add on to that: "Pay more" and "Hire remote". Don't disregard the consultant firms either. Many times I've seen a big push to hire an FTE (or series of FTEs) to do a Big Project(tm), only to have to let the FTEs go after Big Project(tm) is completed because there was no more work for them to do.
CamTin · 7 years ago
If your business is essentially burning VC money for a decade to buy a ticket in the Unicorn lottery, then the easy answer is to spend a lot more money. You can do this by poaching expensive people, by offering more, or by hiring lots more people than you need and keeping the ones you actually want. The result will be more manpower faster, at significant expense.

You can also, as many companies default to, ration yourself by imposing very grueling hiring requirements (months of fly-in interviews and hours-long take-home assignments) and "competitive" (as determined by some non-market mechanism like an industry survey) pay. The result of the latter will be long hiring times for good-enough talent that is willing to work for whatever you've pre-determined to be fair.

It's really no different from looking for a car: you can have a known high-quality thing right now (buy new from a dealer/pay $$$ for top talent), or you can buy a lot of potential lemons for cheaper until one happens to last (grabbing random by-owner cars from Craigslist/hire-fast-fire-fast), or you can just wait things out until you find the perfect deal (trawl Craigslist a couple times a week until something jumps out as an incredible deal/pay "market" rates and have a long hiring process).

There are tradeoffs to be made, and you have to make them according to what you actually need and the resources you have. There's no physical law that says you're entitled to unlimited world-class talent at bargain rates to build your adtech startup.

systemtest · 7 years ago
The cheapest way of finding talent is retaining it. I currently work on a project with an empty backlog and a sprint full of impediments. We are all looking for new jobs.

Hiring a good product owner would've meant retaining the team. Now you have to have to find six new developers.

wrestlerman · 7 years ago
I'm from Europe, so I will say why I don't want to work in London (and I get a lot of offers from there!)

The salaries that are offered are a joke in London. The expenses are so huge there! Even if the salary is a bit higher than my current one, I would spend much more.

There are a lot of joke startups, some new cryptocurrency or blockchain startups... Nope, I'm not gonna join anything like that.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of big cities and London is too crowded (for me).

Allow remote and I'm sure you are gonna find someone.

hc91 · 7 years ago
Man, there is NO shortage of tech talent, stop lying to yourself. You are just not paying enough for people to even consider interviewing for your company. Period. This is actually a very simple problem. Throw money at it and stop complaining.