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arandr0x · 7 years ago
For this stage of drug discovery (finding potential hits off of ligand databases, finding potential targets, and refining ligands in silico without running real high-throughput lab work) machine learning may work better at lesser cost. It's the direction (some) research is going right now.

Of course the real cost of drug development is running clinical trials, and losing something like 90% of ligands because they don't make it into the bloodstream, can't be synthesized at scale, or wind up having no efficacy in vivo for no reason anyone can fathom.

(Even making "copycat drugs" where you pick a known target, known ligand class, and try to minimally alter the synthesis process to get a newly-patentable product can sometimes have odd surprises, including the kind of odd surprise where being more specific to the identified target leads to diminished efficacy.)

This goes to show that fundamental research in biochemistry is still needed and we are nowhere near having "cracked the code", genomics notwithstanding.

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ShabbosGoy · 7 years ago
> This goes to show that fundamental research in biochemistry is still needed and we are nowhere near having "cracked the code", genomics notwithstanding.

Personalized medicine is the future. You will find medication that is tweaked slightly at the molecular level to optimize therapeutic effects for the individual as opposed to a population of individuals.

mveety · 7 years ago
I don't see how this conception of personalized medicine would work. For many drugs, the binding sites aren't terribly different or different at all between individuals. I can see this being different for larger populations. More likely you'll see drugs created that very specifically target something so that the personalization will be at the level of the drug cocktail as opposed to synthesizing some new molecule. This isn't to mention the possibly wildly different effects you can get from changing something seemingly minor about the molecule. A sort of good example of this is methamphetamine (yes, I know chirality isn't minor but its a good layman's example).
tomcam · 7 years ago
How does that happen without $1 billion worth of test requirements from the FDA?
vapemaster · 7 years ago
Yup. And judging by their team and strategy they are likely using a highly empirical ligand discovery platform (ie DEL) and using the (admittedly best in class) MD for guiding med chem. Taking the hard problem of drug discovery and then saying you are going to do rational design (a road riddled with dead bodies) on dynamic alloseteric sites of challenging targets is a lofty goal to put it mildly..
jimmygatz · 7 years ago
Hi Vapemaster and others,

Currently doing some research on the industry and curious if you could link to some of the "dead bodies"? Also curious if you know how Verseon's model (https://www.verseon.com/) stacks up versus some of the others mentioned? Obviously it might be hard to say since all their drugs are currently in the pre-clinical trial phase but would appreciate any info you might have.

Thanks in advance

stochastic_monk · 7 years ago
Dead bodies as in patients harmed or failed attempts?
carbocation · 7 years ago
Failed attempts. The regulatory framework in the US and Europe is still pretty good at protecting patients.
Tehchops · 7 years ago
I see you there, Ubuntu desktop :)

Interesting he's using a mbp box as a monitor stand.

On to a more serious note: is this kind of computing work sped up with GPUs?

vapemaster · 7 years ago
Custom ASIC hardware for running molecular dynamics. check out Anton [1]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_(computer)

kolbe · 7 years ago
I don't understand companies like this. Its founder is worth something like $5b, but instead of financing this venture with a tiny fraction of his net worth, Shaw decided to go get funding from several other firms. I understand the idea that a strategic partnership can add value, but having complete control of a company is also very valuable, and I don't know why Shaw wants to just give that away when it would cost him very little to not do it.
dekhn · 7 years ago
It really remains to be seen whether these approaches will make any difference in efficacy or cost of pharmaceuticals.

Blindly thinking that having better simulations of proteins and drugs is going to solve any of the hard problems has led to a great deal of waste.

andbberger · 7 years ago
This comes across as exceptionally naive. Protein-engineering is a fundamental technology, and we've been constrained computationally for decades. Few things would have as far-reaching an impact on society as being able to accurately predict protein structure would.
dekhn · 7 years ago
You can call me naive, or you can read my papers. For example, https://www.nature.com/articles/nchem.1821 is a massive simulation of a GPCR that my team designed and ran. It's a similar idea to the Relay work (simulate the dynamics of the protein, make a markov model of the subsets with transition parameters) With that tech, we could easily implement computational mutagenesis. I agree 100% that protein engineering is a great technology and I wish we could do it rationally. But to be honest, none of my computational work can beat what Jim Wells did at Genentech in the late 90s (converting subtilisin to subtiligase through amino acid mutations).

Here's another paper I wrote, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24265211 which demonstrates there was a systematic error in protein force field implementations; our work was a major breakthrough in improving structure prediction.

Also, being able to predict structures isn't sufficient to engineer protein function.

Please don't call people naive; especially if they are experts in their field.

cing · 7 years ago
Relay is not doing protein engineering or working on predicting protein structure. They are making models of protein dynamics to assist in drug discovery (often using already determined structures). We both disagree with the parent commenter that it's a waste, and to claim that Murcko and D.E. Shaw are going in "blindly" would be ignoring decades of research on protein dynamics of some of the hardest drug targets out there. The fact remains that there aren't many success stories of using simulations of protein dynamics to accelerate drug discovery. Computational chemistry protocols used routinely in pharma drug discovery typically do not include this type of detail.
melling · 7 years ago
I’m not sure why you consider it a great deal of waste.

Building better models that simulate a human biological process must have some sort of payoff? It increases human knowledge, and should provide a foundation on which others can build.

scottlocklin · 7 years ago
I am highly supportive of DE Shaw's efforts to make the world better. On the other hand, OP has a point: many of these sorts of things actually do not have a payoff. I knew some guys working on protein folding in the 90s. No payoff. One of 'em must be close to retiring by now. Shaw offered me a job to do an innovative kind of FTIR back when I graduated in 2004. Pretty sure that didn't pay off either. For that matter Shaw's original research was into the 'transputer' which also didn't pay off. The man's a risk taker, and perfectly entitled to spend his post tax income on whatever he likes. But a lot of science and stuff is dead ends, and, of course, avoiding known dead ends. Might very well be a dead end. He's been dumping considerable resources into this project since 2001; that's rather a long time ago now.
cowsandmilk · 7 years ago
> Building better models that simulate a human biological process must have some sort of payoff? It increases human knowledge, and should provide a foundation on which others can build.

That really is still not clear for the models described in the article. In reality, these models are rehashes of what Murcko was having people do 25 years ago. Big articles were written about Vertex applying Free Energy Perturbation with pictures of Murcko accompanied by David Pearlman and Govinda Bhisetti. A book was written about these efforts, The Billion-Dollar Molecule, and more recently a sequel which partially describes how Vertex's efforts using these methods failed (The Antidote).

Obviously, computational power has improved by orders of magnitude since 1989. So have our parameters for modeling proteins and small molecules. But it really is still not clear that MD or FEP really provide any useful insights into proteins that cannot be obtained more simply via NMR-based screens and linear regression. In fact, I recently saw a talk by Relay's VP of Computation where he described using Free Wilson Analysis at Relay[1] for their drug discovery, which is a linear regression method from 1964...

[1] https://github.com/PatWalters/Free-Wilson

jjoonathan · 7 years ago
A waste for society? No. A waste for the people doing it who are never going to be appropriately compensated for the value of their failure to society? Yes.

The churn that arises as a consequence of the fact that we don't know how to reward failure (or even merely punish it less) is the real waste.

dekhn · 7 years ago
I didn't say that building better models didn't have a payoff. I'm saying this particular approach shows little to no evidence that it's truly revolutionary or even a marginal/incremental improvement over random guesses.
HarryHirsch · 7 years ago
A great deal of waste? 25 years ago we thought that genomics would boost drug discovery and development. It didn't pan out quite like that but thanks to the Human Genome Project costs for sequencing have dropped to almost nothing, and we have learned a great deal about protein evolution. Talk about waste!
dekhn · 7 years ago
I wouldn't really say the HGP taught us a lot about protein evolution. The original few genomes were snapshots of indivduals or amalgams. We do know a bit more about evolution from sequencing many more people (post-HGP), but it hasn't really been super-productive compared to previous work (note, my postdoc work was on protein functional evolution) from before the HGP.

For example, Carl Woese, using only 16s RNA from a wide range of species and mostly hand-computed similarity clustering, managed to find a previously unrecognized kingdom. I don't think we've really had any truly revolutionary discoveries like that from HGP and post-HGP sequencing that focuses on humans.

davidkuhta · 7 years ago
The breadth of your second statement gives me pause, but as I'm not well versed in computational biology, I'll just ask: What are the hard problems?
dekhn · 7 years ago
The single hard problem in pharma is predicting which drugs will get through to full approval, and how much it will cost from initial results.

If you could do that reliably, it would completely transform pharma.

yawrp · 7 years ago
For one, there are more candidates than capacity to run clinical trials. Costs & timelines for those have been going up over time. Lots of high-potential compounds just sitting on the shelf.
reasonattlm · 7 years ago
Most of the cost is regulatory. But there is a meaningful difference between a world in which it costs $1M to screen and a world in which it costs $100k to screen. In the latter world, startups become viable with intent to find a drug candidate, rather than only being viable if they already have one. That's a big important difference, and one that was only otherwise going to be solved by everyone transitioning from small molecule to gene therapy development.
HarryHirsch · 7 years ago
The real cost occurs in Phase 2 clinical trials, where 70 % of promising-looking compounds turn out to be no better than placebo. The body is a complex system with a huge number of enzymes and feedback circuits, this outcome isn't much of a surprise then.

You can't blame the FDA. But thanks to Trump's "right-to-try" phase 2 will be a smaller hurdle now. Good luck, let's see how costs develop.

vapemaster · 7 years ago
interesting point. though this ignores the (surprisingly) successful re-purposing strategies to reduce future regulatory burden and and reduce or even eliminate high throughput screening campaigns. that well will dry up sooner or later but other discovery platforms ie phage display etc. have become commoditized and robust enough that they are pretty accessible to even low capitalized startups if finding a ligand is what you need to get off the ground.
aaavl2821 · 7 years ago
You can do a screen with a CRO for low six figures
jimbofisher1 · 7 years ago
I'm not going to cry for Shaw if he wastes his money. He has mountains of it...
known · 7 years ago
D.E.Shaw was my former employer. I wish him success.
erikb · 7 years ago
The title looks like a really good idea for a modern-world pen&paper RPG system.
atrexler · 7 years ago
Overload your gels much bro?

JK- just looking for those impurities.